Scratching my head at this one....

[jdgabbard]

So I'm at the local Indoor Range yesterday evening. Putting rounds down range. I've brought with me two pistols, my RIA 1911-CS, and my S&W Sigma 9mm. Now it takes me a little warming up before I start respectably placing rounds on target at about 10yrds. I was shooting 6in circles, and seeming to be able to place all shots in the black, usually within a 3" grouping. But then something strange happened. I picked up the RIA, which was being fed a dose of 230g Aguila, pointed at the target, and fired. And my first shot hit about 6-7" low. I continued to shoot the pistol to see if my a was pushing the muzzle down, but that didn't seem to be the case. A gentleman next to me by the name of Jim allowed me to shoot his Springfield Government. Same story, I was shooting about 6-8inches low.

Now I have never actually taken this out target shooting. Just shooting B-27 type targets for concealed carry purposes. Which it does seem to do fine with, and now that I think about it, shots may have been a little low. I don't really think I'm pushing. And I don't seem to be with the Sigma, which actually has more felt recoil to me. What do you guys think?

[clintsfolly]

My WAG is your dropping it to see where it hit. I see this a lot in shooters at the falling plates. They alien the sites, squeeze,then lower the gun to see if it is going down or where the hole is!! Hope this helps Clint

[Cherokee]

Did Jim shoot your gun ? Where was he hitting with his gun ? It could be you, or maybe your sights need adjusting.

[BruceB]

Six inches low at 10 yards is a MAJOR problem; I suspect it's a flaw in your technique. This is more than a sight-adjustment error, I think.

Get someone else to make the gun ready to fire, handing it to you already closed so you don't know if it's actually loaded or not. The first time the hammer falls on an EMPTY chamber, you (and he) will probably know where the problem lies. This is the well-known "ball and dummy" routine.

[jdgabbard]

Yeah, Jim shot the gun. Liked it alot. Killed the black. I know it's me and technique. However, I'm not having this issue with my other pistols. I'm more of a wheel guy to be honest. And I would think if anything I would think I'd be shooting high. I guess there is only one way to solve this. More range time and proper attention to technique...

[tomme boy]

How was the lighting? I shoot totally different places when I shoot outside compared to inside. It's really bad if the sun is at my back. Not as bad as what you are doing, but it is enough to notice.

[MBTcustom]

Without seeing you shoot, it's impossible to tell. All I know is that just like you "drive" a car, but you "ride" a Harley, 1911 takes some finesse. With most pistols, you let the gun do all the work, but you have to steer a 1911. You have to learn how to run it. The good news is, that usually once you learn, you never lose it, at least not for long. I can get somebody to that place in one afternoon with about 400 rounds of ammo, but I have to be able to watch them shoot.

[Willbird]

I have noticed new shooters with 45 hardball loads start to shoot low, give them some target loads and or a few mags with a lighter recoil pistol and they get right back in the game. In their case it was a flinch more or less. A little ball and dummy might show you something ?? Have somebody else load the mag with some dummies mixed in with live ammo.

[rsrocket1]

Shoot from a rest or sandbags to begin with to prove to yourself it's you and not the gun.
When I started shooting my 1911 after a 20 year hiatus I was shooting 6" low very consistently at 15 yards. This was so consistent that I thought the sights were off. Since the gun had fixed sights, I made some "rear sight extenders" out of cardboard and taped them on. The groups went straight into the bullseye. What I later realized was that my technique was the problem but it was so consistent, I thought it was a hardware problem.

The cure: shoot, shoot, shoot! I tried different techniques such as left-hand-under-right-hand, "death grip" until I was shaking after only 50 rounds, squeezing the web of my hand so high and hard that it bled after each session. But eventually, experience and just getting comfortable with shooting the gun cured all the problems.

Try shooting a lot with that gun and that gun only for a while. I've noticed that switching guns tend to cause loss of accuracy as much as going a spell without shooting at all. Some times I may start with a light load on the 1911, then switch to the full house rounds and I notice that my accuracy stays the same even though the "springy bounce" of the light stuff turns into a "stiff jump" with the heavy stuff.

[Jkallen83]

Without seeing you shoot, it's impossible to tell. All I know is that just like you "drive" a car, but you "ride" a Harley, 1911 takes some finesse. With most pistols, you let the gun do all the work, but you have to steer a 1911. You have to learn how to run it. The good news is, that usually once you learn, you never lose it, at least not for long. I can get somebody to that place in one afternoon with about 400 rounds of ammo, but I have to be able to watch them shoot.

i like this reply. ive got one pistol i shoot 2 handed and its dead on, but my conceal carry pistol if i hold tight with 2 hands shoots low. it actually is accurate off the recoil bounce. so shooting one handed, its perfect, but 2 handed when i have full solid control, its low. so like was mentioned, instead of "steering" the gun, try loosening up or one handed shooting and let the gun do the work and see what happens.

[jdgabbard]

Those are all some very good points. I can keep great groups all day long with a wheelgun. I can do a pretty decent job with my various autos. And when it comes to this pistol it seems that I'm all thumbs. Quite humbling to be honest. Like I said, I'm going to just continue to work on the fundamentals and put lots of rounds down range.

Out of curiosity, I'm having a problem with the brass ejecting pretty violently to the front. About 2ft to the right, and 4ft in front. I'm thinking the issue could be the spring. Do any of you 1911 vets think a stouter spring (22-24lb) may fix this issue? This is a Officer's model, it that helps.

[375RUGER]

Probably not a spring thing, but I won't say 100% it's not. It might be too heavy if anything.
Your extractor may need to be profiled and/or tensioned. Or the ejector may need to be profiled.
Does your extractor have a pan handle (like OK) on it or is it more flush or rebated?
Is the brass hitting the slide on it's way out?
Is it consistently ejecting like you describe or is there some randomness to it?
.

Just thinking out loud now about the shooting low thing. It might be possible that the smooth front strap and grips (assuming I am thinking of the right model 1911) is causing you to grip the gun harder because the smooth feel is subconsciously making you think you should grab it vise like.
I'd concentrate on shooting only the 1911 for a few range sessions.
How's the trigger on it?

[Gtek]

Confirm clear, grip/frame size issue? Grab the revovler with eyes closed and see where trigger finger is on trigger, then repeat on pistol. Might be fisting pull instead of finger pulling. Just a thought. Gtek

[MBTcustom]

The brass issue is a ejector/extractor tuning issue, but it may settle down after you get 'er broke in correctly.
I think most of your problems will disappear after you shoot 400 rounds through it.
Load up 400 rounds and burn them one afternoon (wouldn't hurt to do 600 that's about what I go through in 2 hours) Don't think about it, just relax and shoot. Work with the gun not against it!

[tomme boy]

The slide is hitting the brass as it is going forward. Seems most 1911's that are not the original 5" design have this issue. Like goodsteel said. Run 1K rounds threw it and as long as it is not jamming or hitting you in the face, I would leave it alone and keep shooting it.

[o6Patient]

That is weird, you said it grouped bigger or was it just low?
Did you put the front on the bags to verify if it's the gun..
or something else?

[runfiverun]

i'm wondering where your off hand was.
if it gets low on the gun it will change the shots to low.
get your left hand up on top of your right hand.

[Russ in WY]

That's a lot of Boolit your pushing there. Try something lighter , I have been casting a 155 gr SWC, not the usual 45 weight . Normally 185 /200 lead SWC is what guy's shoot. 4 grs of Clays behind the 185 or 200 shud get it done , and is a lot more pleasant to shoot. Agree with the above may need some tweaking on the extractor /ejector to get the brass to go a different direction . With the lighter loads may also have to change to a lighter recoil spring , to get reliable function. Do U have a recoil buffer pad installed , they are a nice addition also I think . My 2¢, Good Luck , Russ...

[375RUGER]

[QUOTE=tomme boy;1987510]The slide is hitting the brass as it is going forward. Seems most 1911's that are not the original 5" design have this issue. QUOTE]

No they don't have to if they are put together right. The stroke on the Commander is shorter than the full size. So some parts of the operation have to happen with a little different timing. i.e. the ejector needs to bump the case head sooner than later. If it bumps later then the case isn't getting out of the way as the slide starts it's forward feed. Hence, my question about the profile of the ejector.
We at least know that jdgabbard isn't limp wristing or he would probably be getting stove pipes as well.
jdgabbard,
If you do change things like load or springs and get stovepipes then these things can cause it.
recoil spring too heavy for load, load too light for the recoil spring, extractor tension too light, worn extractor hook, damaged ejector
Just remember to change one thing at a time.

[Mk42gunner]

Since it is happening with both your short gun and Jim's fullsize; I really think it is a case of anticipating the recoil. Not a real bad case, those usually show up as the boolit impacting the ground directly under the target at either 15 or 25 yards.

No matter what the range is the cure is the ball and dummy drill like Bruce said. If you don't have anyone alse available to load your gun, you can mix a few dummies and live rounds to load your magazines without looking. This also gives you a chance to practice your tap, rack, bang drill; although I wouldn't be to enamored about loosing my dummy rounds at an indoor range.

Being more comfortable with revolvers than auto loaders is understandable, it just takes praactice to be able to use both equally well.

Robert

[jdgabbard]

The brass issue is a ejector/extractor tuning issue, but it may settle down after you get 'er broke in correctly.
I think most of your problems will disappear after you shoot 400 rounds through it.
Load up 400 rounds and burn them one afternoon (wouldn't hurt to do 600 that's about what I go through in 2 hours) Don't think about it, just relax and shoot. Work with the gun not against it!

It has about 400 through the pipe already. Feeds reliably. Ejects reliably. But I do have the occasional brass marring just in front of the ejection port on the slide from where the brass is dinging it upon exiting the weapon.


Like goodsteel said. Run 1K rounds threw it and as long as it is not jamming or hitting you in the face, I would leave it alone and keep shooting it.

This is not an option. Indoor range, and anything in front of the line belongs to the range. If it were cheap steel cased stuff I wouldn't care. But it is brass, and I do reload.


i'm wondering where your off hand was.
if it gets low on the gun it will change the shots to low.
get your left hand up on top of your right hand.

It's on top, proper grip. But like someone said, I may be squeezing a little too hard. Will have to play a bit more and see exactly what I'm doing different on this gun as opposed to my other.

So the extractor looks good to me from what I've seen of other 1911s. It looks like it has been adequately shaped, and doesn't seem to have any rough edges. As for the ejector, hell I wouldn't even know where to begin with determining if it needs anything or not. From the sound of it, it could be a case of being a little too short. But I don't have a clue.

[Boogieman]

My OM Colt was dinging the brass throwing it forward. I replaced the extractor with a Wilson Combat & put in a new recoil spring 22# Wolf that solved the problem. My gun is a very old OM Colt been shot alot

[41 mag fan]

JB....How many rounds has this RIA had run thru it total?

Goodsteel, Clint and Bruce all had some really good points in their posts.


The slide is hitting the brass as it is going forward. Seems most 1911's that are not the original 5" design have this issue. Like goodsteel said. Run 1K rounds threw it and as long as it is not jamming or hitting you in the face, I would leave it alone and keep shooting it.

None of my 1911's whether they be Compacts, or officer models have these issues.




Try shooting a lot with that gun and that gun only for a while.

Rs here kinda hit the mark. When you shoot one gun then go to another gun your POA will change, esp if it's fairly new to you, or new in the collection. Try doing a reverse of what you did in this last session. Pick up the RIA first then the Sigma. See if your POA changes. If you've done alot of shooting with the Sigma, it could be force of habit you've developed for that particular gun, that you're trying to apply to the RIA. Goodsteel said it perfect on steering a 1911, in just this aspect.


Those are all some very good points. I can keep great groups all day long with a wheelgun. I can do a pretty decent job with my various autos. And when it comes to this pistol it seems that I'm all thumbs. Quite humbling to be honest. Like I said, I'm going to just continue to work on the fundamentals and put lots of rounds down range.

Out of curiosity, I'm having a problem with the brass ejecting pretty violently to the front. About 2ft to the right, and 4ft in front. I'm thinking the issue could be the spring. Do any of you 1911 vets think a stouter spring (22-24lb) may fix this issue? This is a Officer's model, it that helps.

Have you tried a session of using different wheelguns and noticed any difference? As in picking up 44mag SBH first, then shooting a 44mag SRH as an example? This asking would apply to the above quote. If so, have you noticed and difference in POA? reason beings, and i'm sure I'll get flamed on this from someone, is for me it seems every gun you have to handhold place a certain way, and just a little difference in handhold and going to different guns will change your POA, till you settle into the gun.

But when I get a range session going and wanna play, theres times i've had up to a 1/2 doz 1911's out at a time, I know where each one shoots, but when I go from one to the other, till I settle into it, it'll not be hitting where it should be. It'll be a tad bit off.
A good example, my go to 1911...my CCW 1911 is my Kimber Pro Carry. I love this 1911 and have shot the pee out of it. I know exactly where it'll shoot at 10 yrds, 25 yrds, ect and if I start out with it, it'll hit right where I want. But, if I lay it down and go to my RIA compacts, my Remington, my taurus' , my Metro Arms, my STI's ,my ATI's ect ect, even though I know where POI is, it will be a little off, till I settle into them. And vice versa, I'll be a tad off if i go to my Kimber till I settle in. I even have a settle in time if i go from one Kimber to another.

Another thing that will play into affect with a 1911, is different calibers. Recoil factor on this issue. Going from your Sigma to your RIA will cause a POA difference.
And another big thing I've noticed, when playing with my 1911's is going from polymer frame to metal frames or vice versa. The handhold and felt recoil is different.

On the shell ejection....how many rounds have been thru this RIA? Has in any point in time the ejection placement changed? if so it could need a different recoil spring, or the ejector needs tweeked. I IMO doubt its the ejector more than it's the spring.....depending on amount of rounds shot.


i'm wondering where your off hand was.
if it gets low on the gun it will change the shots to low.
get your left hand up on top of your right hand.

RFR has a very good point here, esp with you going from a polymer frame to a steel frame gun.
Difference in grips, difference in style of 1911. Without conscience effort, shooting the Sigma first, I wonder if your grip might of needed adjustment going to the RIA.

[Sasquatch-1]

I didn't read all the post so I don't know if someone may have suggested this already. Load 2 or 3 dummy rounds and take them with you the next time you go to the range. Have someone else load the gun staggering the dummies so you don't know when they come up. This will help show if you are doing something wrong and maybe make you do everything right without seeing any mistakes.

[bobthenailer]

a few years ago i had a Springfield Armory 1911 loaded that shot low at 30 feet with bullets from 170, 200, 215 .& 230 gr i lowered the front sight by fileing almost to the white dot , still low . i installed a adjustiable type Novak style rear sight , and all is well. And its not my technique! I have owned at least 10 other 1911's and a High Master bullseye shooter.

[jdgabbard]

41 Mag Fan, the RIA has about 400 rounds through it already. And the placement of the ejection is always about the same. Which is a huge headache for me, since I see brass like a little kid sees halloween candy.

[375RUGER]

One question hasn't been asked yet. What do you consider your point of aim/point of impact sight picture? Mine is- POI is right where the front sight sits. Some use the old pumpkin on a post sight picture so they are actually shooting high instead of POA.

[rsrocket1]

Good point. I put the tip of the front blade in the middle of the bullseye with my 1911 and Ruger revolver, but have to put the front sight dot in the middle of the bullseye with my M&P40. I have to do the "pumpkin on the post" with my Saiga which is a real pain if the "pumpkins" are different sizes.

[jdgabbard]

I shoot army style instead of what I like to call marine style. Marines sticking the target on top of the front lost, where the army teaches to stick the front post on the middle of the intended POI. Works well on all other firearms for me.

[tomme boy]

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Study these pics. When I was having problems with mine, These are what helped to get mine ejecting right. Most of it was the tension of the extractor that that made the biggest improvement.

[kir_kenix]

What kind of sights do you have on this rig? I don't shoot GI sights all that well...usually a little low. Too narrow rear sight, high narrow front sight. Same pistol, different sights, I can shoot a hell of alot better. I do agree that 6" is quite a bit at this range, but its worth a shot, especially if you shoot other pistols just fine at this range.

Post some pics of your setup, everybody likes 1911 pics!

[jdgabbard]

It has good sights on it. I forget the brand off hand, however they were a breeze to install and are matching, so the height of the front sight shouldnt be an issue. The gun did seem to shoot a little low with the GI sights anyways, but I had never really shot it for accuracy before the other day. Just shooting on b-27 type targets.

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