Reeeezults!

[Blammer]

Yesterday went to the range to shoot a few.

Cool weather slightly cloudy so pleasant and nice.

Was dying to try my new Lee 358-158-RF in my 357 Mag Win 94.

Loaded up some sized to .358, dropping at 162 gr (I sorted by wt) Lyman Black Moly lube with 9 gr Bluedot, CCI 200 and WSR as primers seated to crimp groove.

as an aside note: I tested small pistol primer vs small rifle primers, the small rifle primers shrunk the group by at least .75 inch.

they fed slick, and shot well!

1.1" x .9" for five shots at 50 yds, was the avg for 3 5 shot groups.

Cranked through 50 pretty fast, so brl was hot but bullet and lube held together, no leading or decrease of accuracy.

today I chrony'd the load.

1263 fps Avg for my 3 shots.


hmmmm, I wonder if that will kill a deer... ;)

[Marine Sgt 2111]

It seems that altogether too many people are hooked on the thought of pumping energy into a deer and hoping that it will make up for poor shot placement. Pitiful.

I remember reading years ago when someone wrote to a gun rag and said they were getting 1.5" groups with a .44-40 levergun. The so called "writing sage" told the shooter that the .44-40 was totally underpowered for deer and that he should get a rifle of a more suitable caliber.[smilie=1:

If your shooting 1.1 x .9 size groups at 50 yards...shoot the deer in the brain box at 50 yards and enjoy fresh deer steaks!:Fire:

[dagamore]

SGT is dead on.

Shot placement is KING!

Col. Cooper used to say, if you cant do it with 180grains @ 2500fps (IIRC?) its not the rifle thats failing.

I know i have taken alot of deer with a 45Colt, once with a 45 Schofield(sp?).

Blammer,

that load you have sounds like it is more then enough to put down a dear cleanly and quickly, as long as you put the round in the right place.

[Uncle R.]

SGT is dead on.

Shot placement is KING!



You're right - BUT...
You need enough energy for a clean kill when the bullet's delivered to the chest area. Although I've done it a few times myself, I would NEVER recommend a head shot for deer. There's just too much chance of a horrible wounded and escaped scenario.
I've seen two deer killed with a .30 carbine. One was hit in the spine and dropped instantly although it required a finisher. The other was shot at thirty yards or so broadside through both lungs and had to be tracked for somewhere near 200 yards before it was found lying dead. It was a good hit, I've deliberately shot many deer in the same place myself with more powerful cartridges and never lost one so hit. It was lucky that the trail went through short-grazed open pasture 'cause the blood droplets were durn few and far between. In tall grass or heavy brush I doubt that we'd have found that buck.
I agree that the latest super-duper extremely-short-magnum cartridges don't make up for poor shot placement, but you can go too far the other way too. $h#t happens - and as the bullet and energy numbers go down the chances of something going wrong go up. At some point it becomes inhumane to shoot at an animal the size of a deer, and if the .357 magnum doesn't CROSS that line it's at least mighty close to it.
Flame Suit on...
Uncle R.

[Uncle R.]

:roll: Ooops - double posted.

[Blammer]

everyone has their own experiences which make up their own opinions. Thanks for sharing!

I have shot one deer with a 357 mag previously, same rifle, win 94, but I was using a 170 gold dot flat point. IT was moving along rather stoutly.....the bullet. The deer was meandering through the field towards me.

Shot the basket 8 pt buck at about 40 yards in the chest, out through the opposite shoulder. Deer walked 50 yards closer to the truck and flopped over.

I am not good enough in field positions to shoot deer in the head. Mostly cause I get too excited and can't think or perform minutea actions well at that point in time. I've trained myself to shoot behind the shoulder for so long that is the only option I think about, or actually I don't think about it. It just happens.

What everyone else does, doesn't bother me as I'm not gonna tell you how, where and what to kill deer with. I'll just enjoy the stories!

[Boomer Mikey]

Head shots with a 357 Mag lever gun at 50 yards are possible as well as headshots at 500 yards with the latest and greatest bolt gun, but not probable.

This 1263 fps load with a Taylor index of 9.8 and 504 ft-lb of energy at 50 yards is suitable for mule deer in open country.

Taylor Index Recommendation: 6-17 Antelope, mule deer and sheep - Open country

Taylor Index Recommendation: 17-20 White tail deer, black bear - Brush/Woods

This becomes a controversial issue at this power level; yes it is possible, but not a responsible choice.

Increasing the velocity to 1850 fps (factory load) for a Taylor Index of 14.2 and 1062 ft-lb at 50 yards would be a better choice and this would have a Taylor index of 13 and 905 ft-lb of energy at 100 yards. This is twice the power in ft-lbs of energy and still marginal for game over 150 pounds. Throw some brush or a rushed shot into the equation along with some adrenalin and ...

There's a reason why the 357 Magnum is generally considered "marginal" for deer sized game with full power loads.

Everyone has their own comfort level and sense of responsibility; my experience and common sense tells me this power level will fall well below the expectations of both the hunter and the hunted.

Boomer :Fire:

[Boomer Mikey]

everyone has their own experiences which make up their own opinions. Thanks for sharing!

I have shot one deer with a 357 mag previously, same rifle, win 94, but I was using a 170 gold dot flat point. IT was moving along rather stoutly.....the bullet. The deer was meandering through the field towards me.

Shot the basket 8 pt buck at about 40 yards in the chest, out through the opposite shoulder. Deer walked 50 yards closer to the truck and flopped over.

I am not good enough in field positions to shoot deer in the head. Mostly cause I get too excited and can't think or perform minutea actions well at that point in time. I've trained myself to shoot behind the shoulder for so long that is the only option I think about, or actually I don't think about it. It just happens.

What everyone else does, doesn't bother me as I'm not gonna tell you how, where and what to kill deer with. I'll just enjoy the stories!


Thanks Blammer,

I see you're a responsible hunter and I like your attitude.

Good hunting!

Boomer :Fire:

[Marine Sgt 2111]

A man has to know his limits...and abilities. If you can put that slug exactly where you want it to go at 50 yds, then practice, practice, practice until you can do it in your sleep. :Fire: Then with confidence, wack that deer. If you have any doubts,:confused: then use something you won't have doubts with.

[44man]

The .357 is approaching what smaller bore rifles do and is the reason it can be marginal. The whole problem is bullet/boolit choice, not that the gun won't kill deer.
Smaller calibers need expansion plus enough power for penetration. There are just too many .357 bullets that open too fast and some that won't open at all.
You have to compare it to a 30-06 using 110 gr bullets on deer or heavy solids. Either one is asking for trouble but pick the right bullet and the 06 is fantastic.
Shooting a deer with a solid spitzer from a 45-70 can leave you empty handed too. You can have all kinds of that power factor stuff but none of it counts if the bullet is wrong.
If you are a good shot and trust the bullet, the .357 is just fine.

[Ghugly]

I've a question. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not a hunter nor an assassin, just a shooter with a CCW and a long time love for guns. If a .357 in a pistol is considered to be potent medicine for stopping a 250 lb man with murder in his heart, how can a .357 rifle be considered too weak for a deer? Is it that deer are tougher than they look or are we grossly under gunned for our CCW's?

[felix]

It is a function of range, and nothing more than that. ... felix

[Ghugly]

Thanks Felix. I wasn't trying to be a smart-ass and I appreciate your reply. I've just read a great deal lately about guns that are too weak to kill deer with. I understand and completely agree with the moral imperative that it must be as clean a kill as is possible. I also feel it imperative that if I have to stop someone intending harm to me or mine that I have to tools to do what has to be done. I've recently changed CCW's from a Makarov, that was so light in recoil that I could put 9 rounds into my 7 yard target in less than 2 seconds, to a .44 special Bulldog, that packs a mighty punch with 7.5gr of Unique in back of 245gr of Keith HP's clocking in at 911fps. But, the recoil is so ferocious that there is no way I will ever approach the Mak in follow-up shots. I think, with a little work, I can get 3, maybe 4, into the target in 2 seconds.

I know this subject has been done to death and I really don't want or need an "I'll bet Batman could kick Superman's ass in a fight" discussion. I guess I'm looking for opinions as to my choice from people who actually have some practical experience with boolits doing what the're designed to do.

[Boomer Mikey]

I approached the 357 load from a hunting standpoint and used generalizations because it was appropriate to do so without knowledge of the hunters experience and with knowledge of the energy level available in the load.

Many of you are expert marksmen and most of you have the skill to accurately shoot exactly where you want to. You didn't get that skill from a book or this site alone. There is no substitute for training and experience. Any Marine knows the capability of their rifle, sidearm and their skill levels with them.

No single load is appropriate for all applications and there are several ways to accomplish most objectives, that's why there's more than one kind of bullet and propellant suitable for the 357 magnum. It's your responsibility to learn which bullets and powders are appropriate to accomplish your objective as a reloader and what factory loads are appropriate if you don't reload.

Solid bullets at 1850 fps aren't a good idea for self defense at 7 yards. They'll work for defending yourself but may become a hazard with their ability to penetrate walls. Solid bullets at 900 fps or less becomes a better choice for self defense and very effective at 7 yards but may continue to penetrate interior walls. Light, fast expanding bullets will get the job done for self defense in the 357 magnum with less likelihood of going through walls but may be inappropriate for hunting deer at 50 yards. Knowledge of the capability of your loads and the hazards they can present to the environment you use them in is your moral and ethical responsibility.

I'm sure we could find several exceptions to every aspect of the capability of the 357 magnum and each individuals capability with it but there are many more calibers to discuss.

Boomer :Fire:

[Leftoverdj]

When there is another 4-500 fps there for the taking, I'm inclined to take it. There is no such thing as "too dead". It's nice to have a cheap practice load, but I'd want all the power I could get to hunt deer with a .357 Mag. In fact, I rechambered my .357 Mag Handi to .357 Max for that reason.

You don't have to go that far, but you could get a lot more velocity (and energy) from a GC bullet and a hefty charge of L'il Gun or WW 296.

[Blammer]

who did you get to rechamber your handi?

talk to me!

I've been wanting to do that for a long time!

[TAWILDCATT]

I guess the old timers with they 38/40-44/40-32/20 and 44henrys starved.me I think a high power is 30/06.guess my 45 colt wont do it.

[Ricochet]

No, deer apparently have gotten a lot tougher. I've read that a 7mm Remington Magnum just won't cut it anymore, at least not without special all-copper "premium bullets."

[rhead]

[smilie=1: It's those food plots and corn feeders. The deer now are tougher than the wooly mammoth used to be. Folks used to kill them by sticking pointed sticks into them. Makes you wonder what it would take to drop one now?:roll:

[Blammer]

You guys are funny!

[Marine Sgt 2111]

We talk about the .357 in a rifle and the need for expansion to increase hydrostatic shock and there by quicken the kill. You can not depend on bullet expansion as a given no matter what the bullet construction. This falls under the heading of "The best laid plans of men or mice." Talk to some of your friends who are cops and they will tell you of criminals who have been perferated multiple times with HP's and keep on ticking.

Disrupting the center nervous system via a shot to the brain box, with make this "quickening" the kill instant.

The bottom line is that even the humble .22 lr will penetrate a deers skull at 50 yds. I would never encourage anyone to hunt deer with a .22 LR. I am fairly certain that if a .22 will accomplish the mission than a .357 mag with a cast bullet will do the same. IMHO.

I love this kind of banter......

[black44hawk]

I like the jokes posted above: everyone realizes the magnum mania epidemic. Deer always die when you poke a hole through their lungs. You could use a 22 cal bullet, 45 cal roundball, broadhead tipped arrow. That 357 will sail right through both lungs. That's a dead deer!

[38-55]

Hey Ya'll,
I just love hearing the magnum mania maniacs tell me how much of a fossilized throw back I am for hunting deer with that weak ol' 45-70 and a lyman soft cast 457122 ( gould hollow point) !!!! Yeah it maybe an old combo but it drops deer dead and I don't ruin much meat ! I could go on with all kinds of story's about rds that ain't supposed to be 'powerful' enough. Hey, it really is all about shot placement. With that all said I'm in the school of 'bigger the hole, the bigger the leak'. Put the big hole in the right place and there's meat on the table..
Calvin

[HollandNut]

There are many varied degrees of wounded , but only one degree of dead ..

Elmer was my hero and his philosophy still holds true ..

If a big hole is good , a bigger hole is better ..

There is no substitute for shot placement , but IMO the 357 is marginal at best ..

[1Shirt]

Good and interesting thread. Enjoyed the comments on 357's, range, shot placement, etc., particularly those of the Jarhead (being a former one my own self). Here in Ne. it is legal to shoot deer with a 357 Handgun, but not a rifle. Now isn't that just brilliant logic. This is the same state that will all no scope on a muzzleloader over 1X. Don't you just love it when somebody in the Game and Parks, or Fish and Game or what ever they call them in your state trys to figure out such things based on __________(you fill in the blank). Last time I asked I was told it was to keep people from trying to make those long shots. I replied "how can you stop someone from trying a long shot with legislation", got a bunch of duhhhhs more or less for an answer. Think it was Taylor talking about shooting elephants who said that you need to get as close as you can befor you shoot, and then get 5 yards closer. Think as many, if not probably more animals including deer are wounded or crippled by hunters carrying hard kicking mags, that they are afraid of and have put limited rounds through befor taking them in the field. Have witnessed that routine more than once.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[HollandNut]

Yep I agree with ya there on sooper mags and deer .. However I have used the Lott and 375 Holland for deer .. Not full house buff/ele loads of course ..

Range time ?? practice ?? People still do that ?? HHMM ..

I saw a fella at the range couple years ago with a mini 14 and scope spend an hour trying to put three shots into an inch at 50 yards .. Finally did it , said it was "good enuff for deer"

[Marine Sgt 2111]

Gentlemen,
I can not tell you what a pleasure it is to find a group of shooter's with whom reloading and casting bullets is a labor of love. Most of my friends who are shooters still fewer are reloaders and when I talk about lead alloys, heat treating lead, chamber pressures, pressure curves etc, etc, etc...well they get that look on their faces like deer in the headlights.

That being said, I firmly believe that you have to practice with what ever cartridge/rifle you choose, have the common sense to hold off when it's a bad shot and plant them where you point when it's right.

I remember a gentleman who's name was Bell, who hunted in Africa and killed elephants rather successfully with a 7mm mauser. He had common sense, and he planted them where he pointed them.

Again to all members, it is a pleasure to be able to share experience and knowledge and to gain valuable insight into so many varied aspects of cast boolits and reloading.

And to my brothers in arms, uuuurrraaaahh!!

[dagamore]

Just have to agree with SGT again, but I can’t let that weak Marine grunt pass, so here is the Army version of that HoAHH :D

As others have stated, it is funny to read old hunting/rifle magazines, from say 1960 an earlier. They all talk about how New rounds, one article I recall was about the 7mm STW(IIRC) and how other rounds were no longer powerful enough to hunt with, the article even stated that a .308 might no longer be enough for WA ST Whitetails. Another point on the same idea, is reading about hand gun hunting, written by people like Keith, and others, would talk about hunting with a small 5inch barrel 44 spl and the great success he was getting, but now days they talk about the 475 Limbaugh and the 480 Rugger being marginal for hand gun hunting. Don’t know what to call that way of thinking but it is funny to read. I know I have heard from more then one person I used to respect, that a 30.30 was not enough rifle to hunt with anymore, guess all the deer I have fallen with an old (like 80years old at the time) 30.30 lever action were just weakened /sick /mutants since they fell right quick to a proper shot.

[38-55]

Hey Ya'll,
This sure is a good bunch of folks !!!! What ya'll gotta remember is the gun industry is just that, an industry and if they don't sell guns there is no industry.
Hence all the 'need' for more 'powerful' cartridges and the latest gizmo... Same with gun writers... Nothing new to write about and no job... Well ,not really they'll just rehash the 9mmvs the 45 and the .270 vs the 30-06 'debate' add infinitum..
SGT 2111,
Next time I'm at q-town I'll put 2 degrees 19 minutes on my big browning and send a big ol' postell down range on range 4 for ya. Them marines get a kick outta shooting off buffalo sticks with cast bullets.
Calvin

[LarryM]

Not so long ago I over heard an "expert" telling a newb that the .30-06 is marginal for deer, nothing less than a .300 Weatherby magnum was responsible.
So long as you are aware of the limitations of the cartridge and gun and your capability under the stress of a hunting shot and those factors add up to a high probability of a clean kill and recovery (and it is legal in your local) then do what makes you happy.

[leftiye]

Larry, That "expert" is an anti -hunting subversive. He figures if he can get you to blow up your deer you will stop hunting, there being then no reward for your effort. Even 06s blow up deer! Though only if loaded with a very destructive bullet. IMHO all of the belted magnums and above are so powerful you wonder why anyone uses them on those poor little animals. I'll stick to my .270 thank you (or better still, my 6mm improved).

[DOUBLEJK]

Well there is a big difference between a .357 in the hands of a Hunter Rifleman and the same in the hands of a 2day a year shooter....

Most of us here are well aware that deer and many other critters fall over stone dead to woefully underpowered hyponated cartridges...

But that opinion don't sell many new fangled supermags to the unknowing masses that believe all they read in the gun rags...