Winchester 1894 38-55 Conversion or Browning 1892 44 Magnum?

[Just Duke]

I have read on thread the the Browning 92 44 Magnum has shallow rifling HERE (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?167729-Browning-B92) the bullets need to be .433 which is bigger than the production molds available. My NIB 200 grain SAECO mould is the correct size but the bore of the Browning is to big. Also 2000 Unfired Starline Cases.

I have also read where fellas are sending off their 1894 Winchester's rifles to Jesse Ocumpaugh for reboring in a three groove cast bullet conducive configuration to 38-55. HERE (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/32-40-38-55-375-other-great-non-standard-calibers/22948-38-55-rebore-jesse-first-outing.html)
I had the Lyman 250 grain 375248 but at the time it didn't work with any rifle I was looking at. HERE (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-rifles.php?entryID=59)
I still really like this style of bullet.
Brass? 500 for $249.00 Ouch! https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/38-55-Long-Brass-2125/

The price difference is considerable between the two also

Preowned 1892 Browning $700.00 + $800.00 {background check + tranfer + shipping=$70.00}
Preowned 1894 Winchester $300.00 + $225.00 for reboring.

Neither one of us have shot a 38-55 and no clue what recoil would be like. A 250 grain moving at shy of 1600 out of a 6 pound rifle might just rattle what's left of our fillings.
Thanks for letting me think out loud.
Duke

[starmac]

I have a question about the 38/55 conversion. I have understood this is basically the same as the 375 win, that was marketed in the heavier big bore. Is the standard 94 strong enough to use with no problems?

Another question is, is the 225 bucks the total cost of the conversion?

[Just Duke]

Another question is, is the 225 bucks the total cost of the conversion?

From what I read it is. If not, please someone correct me.

[Nobade]

Yes, that is what he charges for the whole job.

I have both rifles, actually the Marlin in 44 mag and another Marlin 336 that he rebored. I find the 38-55 to be more pleasant to shoot and more accurate at long(er) range, but I also shoot it almost entirely with black powder so ballistics are more like 250gr. at 1250 fps. Recoil at that speed is nothing. It is possible to load it up to 375 Win ballistics, i.e. 225gr. at 2100 fps, but that really stresses everything and I have other rifles that are better suited to that if I feel I need the power.

The 44 mag is funny - it also is extremely accurate with black powder and soft boolits. But trying to get it to shoot with smokeless is sometimes tough. It too needs .433" boolits, which I have a couple of custom moulds for, but it likes to lead the bore anyhow and is only accurate at full power. The best thing I have found for smokeless is to size the boolits to .427" and paper patch them up to .434". Then they are extremely accurate, don't lead at all, and a 240gr. does 1800 fps over a case full of IMR4227. But the downside to that is the boolits need to be seated out to engage the rifling so they are WAY too long to feed through the magazine. Plus it kicks a bit.

So which to get? Pretty much depends on what you want to do with it. Either one works, 38-55 is likely easier to get to shoot well, 44 mag is nicer to carry around, both will require handloading to see their potential. Neither is terribly useful past 200 yards. You takes your pick....

[Guesser]

I built up a 38-55 on a late model Angle Eject M94 receiver, it weighs right at 6 pounds with the button magazine loaded. I load a 265 gr. cast bullet to 1800 FPS at 10' from the muzzle, chronoed on a Pact unit. The recoil from a benched gun is a little uncomfortable after 10 rounds or so, afield, hunting, plinking, whatever, the recoil is easily managed by a 150 pound shooter of slight stature. In essence; don't be afeared of 38-55!!!

[runfiverun]

hmmm i don't know about getting 1600 from the 38-55.
i have the browning 92 and it's a solid smooth levergun.
it however will absolutely positively not feed anything longer than 1.610 [saami spec]
you could just find a win big bore rifle in 375 and just load it to 1600 fps easy nuff.
both the browning and the 375 run about 700-750.00.
i looked over a decent marlin in 375 win a bit ago for 650.00 but i allready have one of them.
the marlin is a bit easier in the recoil dept when you put the steam to the 375449
i size to .379 for both of my 375 win rifles.
and swage 40 brass to 430 diameter bullets for the browning.
and just turn the canellure in the right place for the oal to feed
i use those same bullets in my 94 win 44 mag as iiiit has a goofy oversized shallow rifling bbl too.
a lot of work for those two rifles, when my rossi's just take cast at normal diameter with no drama.
i must like the browning.
i have been hearing about the new rossi's having .432 bbls since taurus took over too though.
hope this helps a little.

[wch]

I own and shoot a Model 94 Winchester take-down rifle (originally ordered with a semi-pistol grip stock from Winchester in 1925) and I have never experienced any sign that would lead me to believe that the '94 has a strength problem with the 38-55 cartridge.
That said, when I load for this rifle I stay within the suggested parameters for the rifle and cartridge case.
Data is available in many places, but I usually look at suggestions from Ken Waters in his "Pet Loads" article.

[TXGunNut]

I have a minty .375 Big Bore that I no longer shoot so have been hankering after the 38-55 conversion you're considering. Awesome cartridges. I've looked hard at a few Browning 92's but just can't pull the trigger, so to speak. I have tons of .38 brass and a love for the 45 Colt so when I finally buy a 92 it won't be in 44, especially if it requires special moulds or loading techniques. I'm thinking I'll have a Rossi 92 someday but a Uberti 1873 has been tugging at my checkbook as well.
To answer your question more directly I'd go for the 38-55 but that wouldn't keep me from looking for a pistol caliber carbine if the right one was to happen along.

[runfiverun]

just remember when you look at the taurossi's you are the final inspector.
the 45 colt bbl's tend to run @ 454 now and the twist rate on the 38's has been slowed down.
if it doesn't have a good finish and the action is rough/jerky i'd pass.
on the other end if it looks and feels good they are usually good [sometimes i think taurus has 2 different plants they make guns in]
the 38-55 is a good fit in a good 94.
i'd stay away from the cross safety rebounding hammer ones though.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
If you are patient you can still find the Rossi's that Interarms impoerted. Those are some nicely assembled rifles. I have one in 45 Colt and it compares in function with my Winchester (jap) 45 Colt. Both shoot very nice. The Interarms cost 1/2 the price of the Winchester.
I also have two Jes rebores. One is a 38-55 . Very nice and has a .379 groove so easy to find fat enough cast Boolits. The other was done in .412 and I chambered it to 414 Supermag. Both are fine shooting barrels. Getting together the stuff to get another barrel JES reamed and grooved.
Mike in ILL

[Just Duke]

Barbie bought a Rossi .357 magnum. You could not load it. We were at Bass Pro Shops and one of the fellas we know in the gunsmith section tried to load everything they had into the magazine and it would not take it. Finally they found some 38 specials and they functioned. She took it to the gun shop and put it up on consignment and she lost $200.00. Overnight........ Steves Guns runs a pretty lucrative business fixing these gun problems. We will never purchase any ever again.

[JFE]

The B-92 is a nice rifle and once you understand how to feed it, it does work fine. The main issue is getting it to shoot well with cast as with jacketed bullets it is fine. The action is brilliant and is the main reason I still have it. I have been thinking of turning it into a 45 LC, but that's another story.

I don't have a 38/55 but do have a Win 94BB in 375. The top eject 94BB's are the pick of the bunch in my view - they are a little lighter than the AE models and a little stronger as they don't have the frame cut out that the AE models have. The 94BB's also have deep rifling and the twist rate will easily stabilize heavy bullets. If you want use bullets at the lighter end of the spectrum then I would suggest looking at mould designs that Ranch Dog developed.

In the 375 you can push 300gr cast pills over the 1800 fps and is much more gun than a 44 IMO. You can also load down to pussycat levels: 6.5 gr of Red Dot behind a 250 gr PB pill is subsonic and is accurate enough to hunt rabbits with. The rifle is close to the same weight and size of the B-92, so it's easy to carry around. Accuracy with the 375 with cast is excellent.

If you do a search you will find several posts on this cartridge. To my mind its a very under-rated cartridge.

[JFE]

If you do go down the re-boring route I would suggest you specify a 375 groove diameter and reasonably fast twist if you want to shoot heavy weight bullets. the 375 Win eg has standard 1 in 12" twist.

Most commercially available moulds drop bullets around 376-378. If you use the traditional 38/55 diameter (379) you will need bullets that measure 381+. The problem then is one of having these bullets fit the chamber. If you do a little checking you will find quite a few complaints of tight chambers in 38/55's. There are several ways around the problem, but specifying 375 bore is the easiest and provides wider loading options.

[bigted]

another 38-55 fan here!!! get a 38 and that with a 14 inch twist and your set for any common length boolits...also get the .375 bore as this will be far easier to feed accurate boolits for. as far as the recoil depr is concerned...the loads for a 38-55 are very easy to control and with reassonable care they will deliver very fine accuracy. i think id go for a marlin tho but thats just me...i like the marlin considerbly better then the winchester. an old model 93 will not set ya back too much more then a rifle and a re-bore job and then you also have another connection to the ODG's...they are also a very fine shooting rifle to boot. just my thoughts...stay away from a 44 mag rifle!!! they will kick considerablely harder then the 38 will...had both and will never have a 44 rifle again...except for my marlin .444 which will NEVER leave my sweaty hands.

[brstevns]

For 38/55 brass it is easy to fire form 30/30 brass. 6gr Unique fill case with cream of wheat or grits , push brass into a bar of soap to seal. Piont gun straight up and fire. Instant 38/55 brass. or you can just fire 30/30 loads and they will form out to nice brass.

[Nobade]

Except they're way too short.....

[Just Duke]

Except they're way too short.....

That's what I heard also.

[brstevns]

Way to short not really. I have use these for years with no problem. Still that is me. I was just trying to show that getting brass to use is no problem.

[Nobade]

Yep, I have done it that way too. It works but the real stuff ends up about 3/16" longer and accuracy is much better. And remember there are two lengths of 38-55 chamber, so use the correct case length.

[John Taylor]

I don't know why anyone would worry about a 38-55 on a 94, that's what the 94 came out in before the 30-30. The 30-30 has 42,000 psi chamber pressure which is quite a bit higher than the 30,000 psi of the 38-55 and 32-40. Factory loads for the 375 Win. are 52,000 so they most likely would be unsafe in an old model 94.
Might also try http://www.deltagunshop.com/ for rebores.

[Just Duke]

How hard would it be then to just rebarrel with a Green Mountain octagon profile and a longer magazine tube?

[Just Duke]

Original 1894 Winchester in 38-55 re-bored any day before a Miroku want to be. I had a B-92 when the first came out. Bought it on Lankershim Blvd in N.Hollywood at the old B&B Guns. Down the street was a old surplus store that had boxes upon boxes of 1894 Marlin carbines on sale for $79.95. My brother in law bought one of those and it still a great gun. NOooo I had to have the shallow rifled Browning. It was smooth as silk (unlike the Marlin) but it was inaccurate as he!! The Marlin smoothed out with use but it shot circles around my $250 browning. I could of bought 3 Marlins that day for the one browning. That's my story and I'm stickin to it.



Looks like I'll abandon the 92 then and go with the 38-55 conversions.
That leaves me with 2000 unfired Starline 44 magnums.

[Just Duke]

This is what they used to look like. http://www.cabelas.com/winchester-rifles-winchester-model-1894-38-55-4.shtml
http://www.winchestercollector.org/guns/1894.shtml


http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/images/winchester-1894-38-55-rifle-original-blue/winchester-1894-38-55-rifle-original-blue%20(18).jpg

[brstevns]

Yep, I have done it that way too. It works but the real stuff ends up about 3/16" longer and accuracy is much better. And remember there are two lengths of 38-55 chamber, so use the correct case length.

You are right about the chambers. I have a marlin Cowboy and it has a shorter chamber. I did luck out and it has a .376 bore.

[shdwlkr]

Duke
I have two 375 winchester bb and one is factory and one is built to my specs. I was told by my smith because of the fact they were made early on that most likely they will take the longer 38-55 brass. Remember you can get 38-55 and 375 winchester brass that are almost the same length or original length referenced from starline brass 38-55 BRASS (2.080") (LARGE RIFLE PRIMER) or the original 38-55 LONG BRASS (2.125) (LARGE RIFLE PRIMER and the .375 winchester is .375 Winchester Cartridge length : 2.02"

The 30-30 blown out will work in the .375 winchester,
I use .379 diameter bullets in my .375 just cause and have not been sorry, I am working on using 350 grain bullet that I got from our own Bullshop. Don't assume because the company never loaded that heavy that it can not be done and used as a hunting round.
The only issue I have noticed is that the wall thickness on the .375 is thicker than on the 38-55 but I am not totally sure it really matters when using cast bullets.
I like my .375 winchesters but would most likely grab a 38-55 if I found one I liked just cause again.
As to the 44 mag do a cast of the throat and chamber and send it off to a mold maker to create a mold that will work in it. Veral made me a 300 grain one for my .375 winchesters that I have not found since my divorce so will most likely have to pony up funds again and have a new one made.
Have you noticed I like big heavy bullets in those big bores??
The beauty of cast bullets is that you can have them that fit your exact firearm and have a heck of a lot of fun with them when others are dumping them.
My factory .375 is in mint shape for now and I got it for less than it sold new, the custom one was really only the action that was worth saving and so I put a 26 inch octagon barrel on it, full length tube mag and duracoated it, new wood also.
As to the recoil neither of mine seem that much more than a 12 gauge shotgun, Now if we are talking my 338 things are a little different as it speaks well only issue I have found is it works best with J-word bullets.

Duke remember these things are made in an assembly line and so tolerances are within a range and you could get a tight one or a lose one or one anywhere in between. I have 30-30's from the early part of the 19th century through the 1980's and yes there are some differences but not enough to make me say one is better than the other. Craftsmanship now that is a totally different story, fit on mine is good but I have seen some that I would only take the action and then it would need some love and care from a good smith to create a good rifle to me.
Heck I even have 2-92 winchesters one complete and one being rebuilt and a miroku and I like all three 2 have 24 inch barrels and the new one will have a 22 inch barrel and is going to be a 256 win mag. Yep like those non commercial calibers. Actually I like the fact there is no over the counter ammo available makes it so much more fun when you fire it as you did as much as you could to create that round. I form, cast and load for many of my firearms as there is no factory load.

[northmn]

Have a Marlin 38-55 adn agree that if I were to order a custom barrel it would be 375. Would want it properly throated also. I have to use Starline brass and as cast from my Lee 250 grain mold to get the accuracy I want. Been steadily downloading from the hot loads to the ones more original to the 38-55. Been doing the same for my 32-20. If you want more power get a Marlin 35Remington. 30 -30 brass may work with very light laods, did not work for sour owl droppings for me.

DP

[Fast Asleep]

The 38-55 rebore is a great way to spice up a 30-30 lever gun. I have two Marlins (an 1893 and a 36) with JES rebores and they are outstanding! The tunaround on my last JES job (two rifles in 38-55 and 35x30-30) was only 3 weeks!

Cheers,
Tim Janke

[Just Duke]

We just got set up as dealers at Green Mountain Barrels. Were going to look for donor actions for a 3 gun 38-55 build.


Not mine but I would like to build a similar model.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/w5359a__71037134919682612801280.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/w5359f__78031134919683012801280.jpg


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/w5359b__27178134919682712801280.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/w5359e__47030134919682912801280.jpg


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/w5359c__68832134919682812801280.jpg


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/w5359d__85428134919682912801280.jpg


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/w5359g__39326134919683012801280.jpg


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/w5359h__91558134919683012801280.jpg


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/w5359i__32830134919683112801280.jpg


http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/winchester-1894-deluxe-38-55-w5359/


Case Hardening would look great.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/CASEHARDENING2.jpg

[Just Duke]

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/KGrHqJpQFCpGeC3p6BQ7wUG6Q60_3.jpg


http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33545

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%201894/_KJE4303.jpg

[runfiverun]

seeing those screws on that takedown made me want to cry.

[Uncle R.]

Duke:
I have a model 94 Magnum .44 and it runs nicely with cast bullets. It may not handle and feed those short cartridges quite as slick as a 92 but it's not bad. Best of all the rifling and throat dimensions work well with "normal" .430 bullets loaded to SAAMI lengths that actually feed through the magazine. No leading, good accuracy - it's a nice little rifle and fun to shoot. They aren't so rare that you couldn't maybe find one...
<
I also have a 94 Big Bore in .375 and it has stubbornly refused to deliver much better than minute-of-paper-plate accuracy with anything I've tried - jacketed or cast. I like the rifle - or rather I'd sure like to like it if only it would shoot. It's left me kinda sour on .375s although I can't say they'd all be like that of course.
<
If I was you I'd go with the .38-55 option. I have no experience with the conversion so it's just empty talk - but it sure sounds like a good idea and I've long thought that a nice .38-55 would be a premier "medium" cast bullet rifle.
<
Good Luck:
Uncle R.

[Just Duke]

seeing those screws on that takedown made me want to cry.


This is how I have restore screws.
Drill a hole in a piece of metal the screw will just fit into with the head above the surface. Cut a small sliver of steel and fit it to the screw slot. With an upholstery hammer or cross cut saw tooth setting hammer peen the screw back into shape. I then chuck it up in a drill and sand all the aberrations out then polish and then cold blue.

[Just Duke]

I also have a 94 Big Bore in .375 and it has stubbornly refused to deliver much better than minute-of-paper-plate accuracy with anything I've tried - jacketed or cast. I like the rifle - or rather I'd sure like to like it if only it would shoot. It's left me kinda sour on .375s although I can't say they'd all be like that of course.
<
If I was you I'd go with the .38-55 option. I have no experience with the conversion so it's just empty talk - but it sure sounds like a good idea and I've long thought that a nice .38-55 would be a premier "medium" cast bullet rifle.
<
Good Luck:
Uncle R.

I have heard this way to many times and very true.

<BIG FRUSTRATED SIGH>
I have read countless threads on this forum the good fellas at cast bullets have posted about rifles that are built out of spec just so the firearms companies can CYA. That new Lyman Mini Sharps come to mind as we speak.
I have read and seen to many instances where the bore was to big, the bullet mould was to small, throat to long or the chamber was to long. This is all so they can cover themselves to avoid any civil liability.
I do ask them as I have asked many former employers, "when you wake up in the mourning and go to work, why don't you think of what you can do or make to benefit your brother instead of how much money you can make."
And of course GREED is like nitro******* sitting on the back of a wagon going down a rough road. One big bump and it goes off. i.e. Winchester Repeating Arms, Marlin etc..... 125 years is just flash in the pan as far as history goes.
I also view these looser tolerance as an manufactures opportunity to employ less skilled employees at a lower wage.

Anyway from all I have read here I can surely see why there is a multitude of gent's in the "Special Projects" section acquiring lathes and milling equipment.
Seems like anytime Barbie or myself want something that is correct we have to build it including our new house.
Greed, Alcohol abuse, recreational narcotics, fast(fat)food, MTV and Hollywood has turned the majority of the US into Sloths seeking entitlements.
Threading a barrel and cutting a chamber is not rocket science so I guess the lathe Barbie's GF's hubby has for sale is coming home with us.........


The take down is in this model is nice but our will be solid frames. ;) Heck as cheap as 30-30's are and now that we can get barrels for cost I might even build six. That's two per shooter at our house.
I have to go make 12 holsters today........