Nation's Gun Show 30 December

[AnthonyB]

Went out to Dulles today for the big show. Two weeks ago I bought an AR-15 (Colt 6920) at the Fredericksburg show for $1070 out the door. That was the day after the shooting in CT. Today the same rifle was marked $2999, and I saw run of the mill Bushmasters priced at $1800. 30 round magazines that were $15 are now $30. There were a LOT of people walking the floor with ARs for sale - trying to make a big profit. I have been looking for a Springfield Armory XDS 45 ACP, but they are apparently made of unobtanium. Finally found one today and took it home. All in all a good day, but this is not the time to be looking for an AR.
Tony

[Doc65]

Nor a run of the mill 10/22

[nhrifle]

Time to learn blueprint reading and the operation of a lathe and milling machine

[oldred]

Time to learn blueprint reading and the operation of a lathe and milling machine



I really fear that may also soon come to an end, with the advent of CNC machines it is a lot easier to make a firearm than it was just a few years ago and the idiots (I didn't stutter I did say idiots!) pushing gun control legislation will soon pounce on that one. The problem is they will likely ban home building across-the-board with little consideration as to what type of gun is built. Recent articles on a plastic "assault" type weapon that was produced on a 3D printer and actually fired a few rounds has already been in the news. The fear mongers would have folks believe it is now possible to buy one of these machines that replicates 3D objects, and even machinery or gun parts, in plastic along with easily obtainable computer software and build a gun by simply loading the software into the machine and pushing a button. Unfortunately that's not far from the truth although it's hardly practical at the moment but with better and stronger composites it may indeed become possible to build a low powered but fully functional firearm by anyone with practically no skills. Whether this becomes a reality or not (probably not for many years yet if ever) the talk has already begun and I fear our right to scratch-build a firearm at home is in grave jeopardy! Since I retired this has become my chosen hobby and although my single shot 19th century style rifles are of little threat to anyone I worry that building them may VERY soon become a federal offense!

[starmac]

You can bet that builders will come out of the woodwork if a ban like they want takes place, federal offense or not. Think about it, what illegal object can a guy not purchase now.

[oldred]

You can bet that builders will come out of the woodwork if a ban like they want takes place, federal offense or not. Think about it, what illegal object can a guy not purchase now.



Yes I assume they will but that won't help us who enjoy the hobby unfortunately. Building a rifle just wouldn't be much fun if a person has to hide it and worry about doing time in a federal pen if caught with it. I also wonder about any scratch built firearms we already have, I sure wouldn't want to give up anything I have put so much time and effort into but if it becomes illegal to build one what are we supposed to do with them? Without any build record or serial number how could it be verified if they were constructed before or after any potential ban? I know people are fond of defiantly saying they will never give up their guns no matter what kind of ban is passed and I am sure most won't, I certainly wouldn't, but honestly except for home defense what good would they be to us?

[nhrifle]

An effective weapon can be crafted with tools found in most any workshop or garage. Where am I going with this...the Polish were among the nations disarmed by the Nazis before WWII officially got under way. It was then an easy thing for Hitler to stroll into Warsaw and assume power over the country and the unfortunate souls who lived there. One gentleman was quoted as saying "If only we had had a submachine gun." Obama has already, through presidential decree, given himself absolute power over our communication system, declared the American people as enemy combatants, and has ordered the military to conduct operations within our borders. He has grossly overstepped the bounds of the rights and responsibilities of his appointed office. There are FEMA camps being built all over the country, surrounded by fences and barbed wire. Now he is actively and willfully causing the destruction of the US economy. How much more does he have to do before Americans are powerless under him? Our owning and knowledge of guns may not come down to a matter of recreation any more. Times are rapidly approaching that may require we stand and fight for our country once again. If the commercially made firearms are banned and the majority of them are lost to us, we may have to make the tools to defend our homes and communities.

[oldred]

I hear you but we have to be realistic, if it comes down to that then home made weapons would be of little use to us. There is no way we could defend against the military and our only hope would be if the people in the military rebelled and refused to follow orders, which I would surely hope they would do.

[waksupi]

I have no doubt that most any kind of weapon can be made in a home workshop. Just look at what the Pakistanis make with a drill, file, and their toes for a vise.

[nhrifle]

The Afghan people were out gunned, out manned, and under funded and held the Russians at bay. American colonists looked like a boy scout troop when the British launched their assault. Equipment is secondary to how one conducts him or herself in a crisis and to quote Rambo, "The mind is the greatest weapon". The weapons I am speaking of are basically disposable things, pretty much how I describe my handgun -- something to help me get to my rifle.

[oldred]

There is no comparison to here and Afghanistan, 1770's America or the Middle East countries and to think we as an unorganized group could use home made weapons to defeat a modern police force plus the national guard and possibly even the military is just beyond absurd! Nonsense talk like this may make you feel good but it's just what the anti-gunners will use against us if and when the media blitz comes if strict gun control legislation comes to a vote, we need to come across as sensible, level headed and law abiding citizens not a boisterous bunch of radicals. Guys think about what you are saying and how it sounds to a non gun owner who will vote, we have a good argument for keeping our firearms if we talk and act sensibly and with reason but macho nonsense will come back to haunt us big time!

[starmac]

To most that want them banned, no amount of talking in any language will mean anything. No amount of facts contradicting their views means anything. We can be play nice and hope they leave us some toys to play with, until they decide to go to the next step. Eventually at some point in time we will either give up all rights or demand our god given rights. There is only one right that makes any and all other rights possible, once it goes, the rest will be close behind.

I have no doubt in my mind that I never want to see an armed revolt in this country, but would never think that people standing up for their god given rights would not stand a chance of winning in the end.

[oldred]

Starmac, Beating these people at the polls is our best hope and there are a heck of a lot of people (voters) out there that just don't think about guns much one way or the other and we don't need these people thinking gun owners are radical but you are 100% right, we have no more chance of changing the mind of the rabid anti-gunner any more than he has of convincing us to vote for a ban. If the antis can paint us as a bunch of radicals talking about armed revolt in order to get our way the person who might otherwise support sports shooting and hunting might very well be convinced to vote for stricter regulations in order to keep guns out of the hands of perceived radicals, fellas I am NOT saying we need to kiss butt here I am saying we need to come across as level headed and intelligent and show our neighbors we are not the violent radicals these anti gun nuts are going to try and portray us as!

[starmac]

Any voting we get to do will be after the fact. Our only chance is we can make enough of them think our next vote could mess up their playhouse and put them back in the workforce if they don't put our rights first. Lots of gun owners are giving up without a fight because of what the media is telling us. I personally think there is more support on keeping our rights, than the media is letting on. In fact I think a lot of it is a govt smoke screen to keep minds off of what is happening around the world.

[nhrifle]

Oldred, I am not encouraging anyone to start a fight with the gov't as I would much prefer to live in peace. But facts need to be faced, the demographic of the country has changed. People have changed from a group who like to do for themselves to a group who prefer to watch TV and wait for their assigned entitlement from the gov't. I am watching it happen right here in my own state. People are asleep and choosing to stay that way. They blindly follow what is popular or gives them a warm and fuzzy feeling. According to all the polls that went around before the election, Obama should not still be in office. He took the mess we were in when he took office in 2008 and led us to the brink of collapse. The housing market is in shambles, the dollar is being devalued on a daily basis, basic necessities are almost out of financial reach for many people I personally know, and his esteemed majesty continues to act like a rock star on tour. I didn't and still don't understand the election this year, other than the mentality of the public has changed. One voter from New England was quoted as saying, "Yes, I voted for him. I don't think he did a good job last time but I kinda trust him so I think he should have a second chance."

This is the America we live in. People's lives are ruled by the canned reality they are provided from American Idol and turning a blind eye to the noose that is being tightened around all our necks. This nation cannot continue as it has for the last few years and too many are apathetic about it, and unless there is a drastic change, and soon, America as we know it will melt down.

[Gliden07]

Any voting we get to do will be after the fact. Our only chance is we can make enough of them think our next vote could mess up their playhouse and put them back in the workforce if they don't put our rights first. Lots of gun owners are giving up without a fight because of what the media is telling us. I personally think there is more support on keeping our rights, than the media is letting on. In fact I think a lot of it is a govt smoke screen to keep minds off of what is happening around the world.

I've said this in other posts!! The shootings in CT are an absolute tragidy to say the least!! But the fallout and Obummer pushing fast action is Smoke and Mirrors to take attention away from the real problems in this Country!!

[starmac]

nhrifle, Where is these fenced fema camps being built. I keep hearing about them, but have not heard of anyone actually seeing one.

[waksupi]

The U.S. military has never won a guerrilla war. What do you expect this one to be? Lexington Green? No, it will be from behind those blades of grass. The citizens can not be beat, if they truly believe.

[nhrifle]

Actually there is one either in construction or now finished in your neighborhood, designed to "house" 2,000,000 people (detainees) in Anchorage. I believe that's the biggest one so far, supposedly a huge mental health facility, probably designed that way to keep the masses drugged and under control.

Here's the latest map of locations of the camps
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=118135173934136151745.00045bc25ee928a8872d0

We are from the government. We are here to help.

[hithard]

is it just me or are alot of those locations in red states. HUH....

[nhrifle]

Yup, but here in NH we are now designated a blue state. One of those camps is a couple hours north of me near Lake Francis. I lived in Colebrook for a couple years and spent alot of time fishing in that lake. It's a real pretty area, lots of mountains and clean air. Local indiginous population are mostly moose. I thought NH was too small to worry about, guess I was wrong. Most likely I am why the camp was built in this state. Obummer read most of my posts on this site and a couple others, not to mention the couple emails I sent to him. Anyone sent to NH, enjoy the view, and I am sorry -- my bad.

[waksupi]

Actually there is one either in construction or now finished in your neighborhood, designed to "house" 2,000,000 people (detainees) in Anchorage. I believe that's the biggest one so far, supposedly a huge mental health facility, probably designed that way to keep the masses drugged and under control.

Here's the latest map of locations of the camps
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=118135173934136151745.00045bc25ee928a8872d0

We are from the government. We are here to help.

I just checked out locations that I am familiar with. What a load of bull. Stay the hell away from Alex Jones, Prison Planet and related wackos. I don't even want to see these liars given any credence here at all. They throw in just enough truth to hook someone, then they lead you down a path, that if you would bother to follow up on, you will see they are empty arguments, just like the mainstream media. Worthless. You ask one of these "whistle blowers" for exact GPS locations on these, and see what answers you get. The ONLY response I got, was pointing to a fenced in area behind Pacific Hide & Steel here. Maybe a half acre, fenced for creosote contamination. Ignorant ********.
I tried it for several years, and apparently the locations are too secret for them to tell. What a bunch of alarmist BS artists. At this time I wish I could use profanity to tell you just exactly how I think about this kind of propaganda. There is enough real stuff to worry about.

[starmac]

Well, at least three of the four in alaska it shows are totally bogus. Ft ww and eilson are active military bases and I know every in of WW there is no fema camp on these. It has been a while since I have been on elmendorf, but I highly doubt that anything of the kind is there either. Wilderness Ak a compound to hold 500,000 people, What a fricken joke. If anything has been or was being built that size everybody in alaska would know it and half of would be involved in building it. I pretty much have to call all of these listed in Ak as completely bogus. WW and eilson are the only bases I know of anywhere that are not even completely fenced, you can walk, boat, 4 wheel or snomachine in without going through the guard gate on either base.

[Mooseman]

I been on em too...no such Camp exists here . There was talk of putting a prison at the far end of the Aleutian chain at one time, but that remains to be seen.

[starmac]

I can just see building a 2 million man fema camp in alaska. What are we going to do, import a few more states to fill it with. lol

[leftiye]

I hear you but we have to be realistic, if it comes down to that then home made weapons would be of little use to us. There is no way we could defend against the military and our only hope would be if the people in the military rebelled and refused to follow orders, which I would surely hope they would do.

Realistic is where you use your homemade zip gun or IED to kill an enemy and take their weapon. Don't give up before you've tried.

[leftiye]

There is no comparison to here and Afghanistan, 1770's America or the Middle East countries and to think we as an unorganized group could use home made weapons to defeat a modern police force plus the national guard and possibly even the military is just beyond absurd! Nonsense talk like this may make you feel good but it's just what the anti-gunners will use against us if and when the media blitz comes if strict gun control legislation comes to a vote, we need to come across as sensible, level headed and law abiding citizens not a boisterous bunch of radicals. Guys think about what you are saying and how it sounds to a non gun owner who will vote, we have a good argument for keeping our firearms if we talk and act sensibly and with reason but macho nonsense will come back to haunt us big time!

Even when disorganized and lacking communications, a million people with a rifle who will act will take down a million plus of any enemy. Take a few with you.

[bootsnthejeep]

I just checked out locations that I am familiar with. What a load of bull. Stay the hell away from Alex Jones, Prison Planet and related wackos. I don't even want to see these liars given any credence here at all. They throw in just enough truth to hook someone, then they lead you down a path, that if you would bother to follow up on, you will see they are empty arguments, just like the mainstream media. Worthless. You ask one of these "whistle blowers" for exact GPS locations on these, and see what answers you get. The ONLY response I got, was pointing to a fenced in area behind Pacific Hide & Steel here. Maybe a half acre, fenced for creosote contamination. Ignorant ********.

Yeah, I pulled up the map to see if we had any "camps" in Maine. Wow, look at that. Two dots. In Houlton, Maine. My hometown. Scoped out their locations on Google Maps. The first one is a potato house at a rail yard 4 miles from my parent's house. Last time I saw it the walls were barely holding the roof up.

I really don't know why there are two dots, because there is only one location called out on the side, and neither dot is geographically even close to what it describes. There is, in fact, a POW camp in Houlton. And it's called out in the sidebar as "German POW camp".

I guess it was quite a large complex back in the day, but it's mostly all gone now. The only buildings and fenced in yard now are preserved for historical purposed in the business park, and the whole facility might cover an acre or two now. The rest of the land got turned into industrial buildings and a trailer park (ironically).

I can't speak for the rest of the map, but those two are a crock.

[oldred]

Realistic is where you use your homemade zip gun or IED to kill an enemy and take their weapon. Don't give up before you've tried.



Even when disorganized and lacking communications, a million people with a rifle who will act will take down a million plus of any enemy. Take a few with you.



Come on guys this is crazy talk and just the kind of ammunition the antis will use to make us look like a bunch of wakos! Think about it, this not Afghanistan or one the Middle Eastern countries but you guys are talking armed conflict or gorilla warfare with the US Government! If the situation here were to reach that point then home made weapons, or indeed weapons in general, would be the least of worries.

[sparky45]

It may be crazy talk today, but we haven't seen the legislation of tomorrow. Registration of weapons IS the first step to confiscation, history will plainly tell you that. Isn't that just ONE of the tenents of Feinstain's proposed legislation?

[oldred]

It may be crazy talk today, but we haven't seen the legislation of tomorrow. Registration of weapons IS the first step to confiscation, history will plainly tell you that. Isn't that just ONE of the tenents of Feinstain's proposed legislation?


You said it -LEGISLATION! It's legislation we have to worry about and talking about gorilla warfare with the US government is just the kind of thing that will sway undecided voters toward the wrong kind of legislation! Chest thumping tough guy talk may be understood here among our group but it not only does no good what-so-ever it will be taken out of context and used to make us look like a bunch of dangerous loonies if it comes down to a vote. Most people in this country are not hard core either way on the gun issue and probably don't think much about it but when considering a vote they are not likely to support anyone who's view includes possible armed conflict with the government!

[nhrifle]

Starmac and others, thanks for checking that out. Among all the truths out there I know there is going to be a bunch of junk rumors started by a bunch of loud mouths. I plan on taking a trip up to the Lake Francis area in early spring to hunt coyotes on a friend's property so I will be able to put eyes on the spot on that map. Much like you said about those you know about, this one is probably so much bull as well.

[Silverboolit]

Gentlemen, What we need to do is VOTE these people out of office! Unfortunately, we cannot do this. I am sure that the majority of voters only push the 'party' button, ie DEM or REP. These people do not vote for a person, but rather for a thing, the party. Most probably don't even know who's involved.

We need to reform the electoral voting as well. I am discouraged that only 3-5 states really elect a president.

[sparky45]

You said it -LEGISLATION! It's legislation we have to worry about and talking about gorilla warfare with the US government is just the kind of thing that will sway undecided voters toward the wrong kind of legislation! Chest thumping tough guy talk may be understood here among our group but it not only does no good what-so-ever it will be taken out of context and used to make us look like a bunch of dangerous loonies if it comes down to a vote. Most people in this country are not hard core either way on the gun issue and probably don't think much about it but when considering a vote they are not likely to support anyone who's view includes possible armed conflict with the government!

And you think registration of weapons won't pass!!

[oldred]

Gentlemen, What we need to do is VOTE these people out of office! Unfortunately, we cannot do this. I am sure that the majority of voters only push the 'party' button, ie DEM or REP. These people do not vote for a person, but rather for a thing, the party. Most probably don't even know who's involved.

We need to reform the electoral voting as well. I am discouraged that only 3-5 states really elect a president.


Absolutely the problem! I'm afraid the sports mentality has America in it's grip and far to many people are not really voting but just scoring a point for their side, simply voting Democrat or Republican regardless of the candidate.

[oldred]

And you think registration of weapons won't pass!!



Did I say that??????? I did not.

What I am saying is that bad legislation is our biggest worry at the moment and talk about armed resistance against the Government is just the kind of thing the antis can use against us to get this kind of legislation passed! Think about it, what possible good does this kind of talk do? It may help vent the frustration some may have but it does not help our cause in any way, it does give the antis the very kind of ammunition they need to try to portray us as a bunch of radicals willing to take up arms against the Government.


Just keep up the armed resistance macho type discussions, Nancy Pelosi and her buddies just love it!

[1Shirt]

If it comes to that, it will be registration without representation, and that is not just a play on words.
1Shirt!

[Love Life]

The difference is back in the 1700's the British army was separated by an ocean, didn't have air support, armor, Thermal, nightvision, Communications monitoring, GPS, Satellite, etc.

Permanent FEMA camps are not necessary. Ask Joe or any engineer worth his salt and they'll tell you that a full sized camp can be hauled on trucks and set up within 24 hours. I have seen it done.

Fear not the government. They are who and what they are. Instead fear the sunshine patriot who will foment a rebellion and then run away when it starts.

"THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated"

-Thomas Paine "The Crisis"

[joesig]

Went out to Dulles today for the big show. Two weeks ago I bought an AR-15 (Colt 6920) at the Fredericksburg show for $1070 out the door. That was the day after the shooting in CT. Today the same rifle was marked $2999, and I saw run of the mill Bushmasters priced at $1800. 30 round magazines that were $15 are now $30. There were a LOT of people walking the floor with ARs for sale - trying to make a big profit. I have been looking for a Springfield Armory XDS 45 ACP, but they are apparently made of unobtanium. Finally found one today and took it home. All in all a good day, but this is not the time to be looking for an AR.
Tony

Thanks for the report. I wanted to get up there on Friday. It was a given prices would jump. I did want to get a "feel" for the customers though. Were they new and desperate or someone who has been shooting a while and "stocking up" on redundant _______? I am praying for, among other things, new shooters that are jumping in and would be inclined to support our rights.

[AnthonyB]

joesig:
I think it was a combination of new shooters and established shooters wishing to make a buck off the newbies. I'm all for capitalism, so that is fine with me. I did not see anyone paying the insane prices for ARs, but I know handguns were selling well. The XD-S I bought was the last of 15 the dealer had brought with him, and was the only one I saw at the show. There were a lot of people looking at Ruger and other lower priced pistols.
Tony

[sparky45]

So, then you thing registration of weapons WILL Pass. And my question to you is - Doesn't that concern you at all? As far as the bluster goes, maybe it helps to blow off a little steam once and a while, our Legislators aren't going to help out at all. As far as "our cause" goes, WE don't have a CAUSE, WE have a Bill of Rights.


Did I say that??????? I did not.

What I am saying is that bad legislation is our biggest worry at the moment and talk about armed resistance against the Government is just the kind of thing the antis can use against us to get this kind of legislation passed! Think about it, what possible good does this kind of talk do? It may help vent the frustration some may have but it does not help our cause in any way, it does give the antis the very kind of ammunition they need to try to portray us as a bunch of radicals willing to take up arms against the Government.


Just keep up the armed resistance macho type discussions, Nancy Pelosi and her buddies just love it!

[oldred]

Sparky what the heck is wrong with you? I have said exactly nothing to indicate that I think any kind of legislation will or will not pass and I even tried to explain that that to you! All I have been saying is that talking nonsense about armed resistance against the government does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help our situation but does provide ammunition for the antis when trying to portray gun owners as dangerous radicals. If it comes down to a vote there are a great many voters who could be swayed by logical and intelligent discussion of our position but likely none who could be convinced to vote for something if they think it is for the benefit of someone who is talking armed conflict with the government! We need support to defeat bad legislation but to talk about taking up arms against the Government even if it's just idle chatter sends the wrong message and attitude perception could very well make the difference in how someone chooses to vote.

[sparky45]

I know what you said, but you keep inferring I proposed the bluster that so upsets you. So, I thought that I could infer what you "say without saying" concerning the registration of weapons passing/not passing as Legislation.


Originally Posted by oldred

Did I say that??????? I did not.

Since you stated that you DIDN'T say that registration of weapons wouldn't happen then by inferrence you are saying that it will happen. See how that works. I don't see how you can have it both ways.
As far as "attitude perception"; how do you influence how a wonk thinks? Absurd!!