Help me understand OAL on a 9mm cast bullet

[flysubcompact]

Luckily, when loading "store bought" bullets for 9mm loadings I have been able to aquire load data from my book or online. These various jacketed bullets have all worked OK using medium loads and OAL data.

Now, I have just started casting. The mold is a Lee 356-125-2R. I just smelted some WW's and ran some bullets yesterday. THe mold actually casts 258-259" OD castings. These were also quenched in water. I have found several online sources that have given me powder charge data for the medium-high velocity I seek, but I cannot find any OAL length data at all for this projectile.

I've read so many comments in old threads where experienced reloaders say that OAL is not a big deal and was not even originally posted in load tables years ago. "Load it to your specific gun." ,etc. I also read where OAL is extremely important. That too much set back will blow your gun up. Of the several 124 gr FMJ factory shells and FMJ's that I've handloaded there has been huge variences in OAL. Anywhere from 1.105" to 1.160".

A loading book tells me 1.105" but some factory shells I measured are .055" longer. Same weight and shape bullet.

What I need is a safe OAL for this 125gr RN lead WW bullet. Do I set the bullet far enough forward to actually touch rifling? Or is forward the Kaboom zone? More reading tells me too much bullet setback will blow your gun up, too. Conflicting, to say the least.

[flysubcompact]

Tell you what. Seeing that I have no itention to buy another 9mm mold in the near future what would be a good/safe OAL for the following:

Bore slugged at .356" (Barrel is LW 40-9 conversion in a .40sw Glock)
125gr RN (one lube band) WW lead and ran through a Lee size die to .357"
Lee Alox lube
W231 powder (loaded for medium to medium-high velocities)

Anyone want to share some book listed data on OAL and powder charge for this? I'd be thankful.

[MtGun44]

Small changes like .020 are no really big deal as far as pressures are concerned. It is a boolit
pushed way back in, like .25" that will dramatically increase pressure. Three things
to check for LOA. First, will it fit the mag. Second, will the full diam portion hit the
rifling in the barrel throat. Third, will it feed properly from mag to chamber. Use the dismounted barrel as a gage.

When looking at loading data, you want to make your boolit base be about in the same location
as the bullet/boolit base in the loading data to keep pressures similar. Start low and
work up.

Also, no need to water drop. AC WWt will be just fine in 9mm.

Bill

[Cherokee]

For that boolit in 9mm for MY guns, I use an OAL of 1.073" because one of the barrels has a short leade and I want the ammo to feed in all my 9mm's. My load with 231 is 4.0 gr with CCI SP primers and .378 taper crimp. You should start at 3.5 gr and see how that works, then work up to 4.0 gr. My alloy is ACWW with 2% tin, sized .356 for my guns using CR lube.

[ipijohn]

For that boolit in 9mm for MY guns, I use an OAL of 1.073" because one of the barrels has a short leade and I want the ammo to feed in all my 9mm's. My load with 231 is 4.0 gr with CCI SP primers and .378 taper crimp. You should start at 3.5 gr and see how that works, then work up to 4.0 gr. My alloy is ACWW with 2% tin, sized .356 for my guns using CR lube.

My son and I have shot many thousand of this boolit at 1.070 OAL over 4.0 gr of 231. We use 1.070 because we have several CZ's that require this length. We have gone as low as 3.2 gr which cycles all pistols except my son's Ruger.

[flysubcompact]

So, you fellows that load this bullet in the !.070" length range do this only for "feeding from the mag to the barrel" issues? A longer OAL would cause a feed issue? Interesting. This Glock with this conversion barrel runs those long factory loads fine, so I guess I have some leeway.

4.0 grains of 231 is what two of my online resources indicate for moderate pressure. 5.0 being the tippy-top. I will start just under 4.0 to be safe. Thanks.

"....pushed way back in, like .25" that will dramatically increase pressure."
Good to know.

[Ed_Shot]

+1 for MtGun44. But first you have to know how long the respective boolits are and I haven't seen that data published anywhere.

"When looking at loading data, you want to make your boolit base be about in the same location
as the bullet/boolit base in the loading data to keep pressures similar. Start low and
work up."

As I cast them:
Lyman 356402 is .624 long at 122 gr
Lyman 356242 is .579 long at 122 gr
Lee 356-120-TC is .560 long at 122 gr
Lee 356-125-2R is .565 long at 126 gr

The Lyman 4th Ed gives a COAL of 1.110 for 356402. Given a case length of .750 there is .264 of the boolit inside the case. Lyman lists a COAL for 356242 at 1.065 and that also leaves .264 of the boolit inside the case. My CZ loves both of these at the listed COAL.

The MAX COAL for Lee 356-120-TC in my CZ is 1.065. I load it to a COAL of 1.052 and that puts .258 of the boolit inside the case. I use the Lyman load data for 356402 with this boolit.

The MAX COAL for Lee 356-125-2R in my CZ is 1.067. I load it to a COAL of 1.055 that puts .260 of the boolit inside the case. I use the Lyman load data for RCBS 9mm-124-CN with this boolit.

I did email Lyman asking what the length of their 356637HP was. Their answer included a variation of .02 which I consider BS.

There are long lists of metplats and top punches for for every boolit ever made at this site so why is boolit length so classified when it can be put to so practical a purpose.

[beagle]

OAL pertains primarily to magazine fit. What is more important in the 9mm is the seating depth which can cause pressure if overdone. Since us bullet casters tend to use so many different bullets to load the 9mm and data is scarce for some designs and seating depth is pretty hard but not impossible to derive, many of us use a simpler system. I know I do.

I'll take the bullet I want to load, use the suggested or slightly under powder charge for the weight bullet I want to load, load five and go outside the shop and pump 5 into my garden. If they feed and function, fine, if not and there are no signs of excess pressure, I'll load until I get a load that functions and feeds with normal pressure signs. Then I'll measure the OAL and record all the data in my load database so that it's repeatable. That way, I'm using the OAL to set my seating depth.

The 9mm is a strange duck to reload and the results of too much seating depth are quickly turned into high pressure due to the small case capacity. I once ruined a bunch of R-P cases with Red Dot in this manner.

Sounds kind of lazy but I'll bet a lot of guys use that method as it works./beagle

[454PB]

I do as beagle described, except I fire them over my chronograph. If seated too deeply for the particular powder charge, you'll see it immediately on the read out.

[flysubcompact]

Ed,


+1 for MtGun44. But first you have to know how long the respective boolits are and I haven't seen that data published anywhere.

You list this mold. The Lee 356-125-2r. And a bullet length of .565" long. Mine, out of this mold, are at the same length. Then down lower you said you set the finished cartridge length at 1.055. Iipjohn said he runs his at 1.070 successfully. I'll load up 10 at his OAL and yours and try them tommorow.

Beagle, I'll shoot for 3.9grains on the first ones.

454, I don't have access to a chrono.

[Ed_Shot]

As I said, my 1.055 COAL for 356-125-2R is dictated by my CZ's chamber. I try to back off .01 from MAX COAL. The Lyman boolits work great at the respective COAL's listed by Lyman. All work great in my G17 and G22 Lone Wolf 9MM barrels also.

[flysubcompact]

Well, I couldn't get 3.9grains of 231 with my Lee powder dispenser. Closest with the disc set was 4.0-4.1. Made five with an OAL of 1.058-1.060". Son-in-law had his new Beretta Px4 Storm, so we did intial shots with it. All five "plunked" into the barrel, so we shot them.

Intitial two felt purty stout, recoil-wise, and did not tumble. Seemed accurate too. We then shot the other three. All rounds felt kind of snappy compared to factory cheapo ammo. We took the barrel off. Looked streaked inside and I actully saw flakes of some sort in there hanging off one of the lands. We brass brushed it and little thin flakes lead came out. Not good, I reckon. I'm not familiar with leading, but I guess this is what it looks like. We've only experienced jacketed bullets to date. We bore cleaned his pistol and packed it up. :)

I decided to make a few more with less powder. Next jump down on the powder dispenser is 3.7-3.8grains. I'll run those through the Glock and it's Lone Wolf conversion barrel and see what it looks like on the next go around.

[ipijohn]

As I said, my 1.055 COAL for 356-125-2R is dictated by my CZ's chamber. I try to back off .01 from MAX COAL. The Lyman boolits work great at the respective COAL's listed by Lyman. All work great in my G17 and G22 Lone Wolf 9MM barrels also.

Ed, My CZ's are the pistols that dictate the 1.070 OAL that I load. My son has a Ruger that will shoot it at 1.165 OAL but it shoots 1.070 just as well.

[454PB]

Many of us that use cast in 9mm have to size larger than that to prevent leading, and some go as large as .359" if the rounds will still chamber freely.

[fcvan]

I have used the heck out of the Lee 356-125 2R. When I first started loading for 9mm, I set my dies to a factory FMJ and it worked great in my S&W 459. Years later, and many different 9mm pistols later I still set my dies the same for that boolit. Last spring, I bought the 356-120 TC because I wanted to try something else. I got pretty lucky i guess, because the 120 and the 125 molds drop at 125 grains and .358 in diameter.

I didn't change my dies from their previous setting and they worked fine. The only time I change my seating depth is when I load the 358-105 SWC and I have a dummy round set up for just that purpose. I suppose I should measure them, but all I ever did before was plunk check them and shoot them. I size at .358 as all of my 9mm weapons shoot well with them. Last year I tried sizing to .357 and got keyholes and horrible accuracy.

[mmorris]

My son has a Ruger that will shoot it at 1.165 OAL but it shoots 1.070 just as well.

Rugers seem to have a long way to go to get to the rifling.
My P95chamber takes this round OAL (1.260) just fine, but the magazine is a different story. :mrgreen:
57130

[emorris]

I will have to double check my notes when I can, but IIRC I use 1.096 when loading this bullet in my 9mm conversion barrel.

[Cherokee]

As an added note to my earlier post, I size to .356 for my guns. I don't get any leading with my alloy and CR lube, even after 5-600 rounds. I tried .357 and saw no difference, .358 gave chambering problems so I stayed with .356. I see other posts indicating they use .357 or .358 in their guns but for me, .356 works fine. One of my barrels will accept a 1.15 OAL but I use the 1.073 because of the short leade in one gun (Briley match barrel). Actually, I find the Lee 120 TC to be more accurate than the 125-2R and feeds 100% in all my 9's.

[flysubcompact]

Update....

I ran five more. All the sizing settings the same. This time I dropped powder charge to only 3.7 grains. As a control, I scrubbed the barrel first before shooting. Also for comparison I shot some jacketed 124's first, inspected. Just some usual powder residue. Cleaned the barrel and shot all five of the WW alloy cast bullets through the Glock's Lone Wolf barrel. Barrel looked a lot cruddier than the after the first five FMJ's. Ran the brass brush through and saw thin specks of lead come out. The lands looked dirtiest. The only thing I can figure is my alloy is too soft or the lube is no good. Or my .357 sizer die is too small for this barrel. :(

Also, the lube I'm starting with is Lee Alox. Instructions indicate that it dried in 24 hours, but this stuff is still gummy after a day and half. I keep seeing reference to "CR" lube. What is that?

[454PB]

"CR" lube? I don't know....but some refer to commercial boolit lube as "crayola" lube. This is a reference to the lube resembling a crayon, rather than a softer lube.

I don't mean this as a blanket indictment of Lee liquid alox, but sometimes it just doesn't work....and especially if the boolits are loaded before it has cured, because much of it is simply rubbed off during seating.

Try a conventional lube. You can even rub it into the lube grooves with your finger for testing purposes.

[HangFireW8]

"CR" lube? I don't know....but some refer to commercial boolit lube as "crayola" lube. This is a reference to the lube resembling a crayon, rather than a softer lube.

Carnauba Red, I guess.

HF

[454PB]

Yup, I didn't think of that.

[Jamezius Maximus]

Hello, I am new to castboolits and I really like it here, lots of info and everyone is helpful. I am also new to casting my own boolits, but "Mike Hughes" has taught me the process from beginning to end.

I have just started reloading 9mm lugar so for the last 4 days I have been doing lots of testing with my Taurus PT92fs, so here are my best results that I have discovered using Unique and Bullsye pistol powder.

Here are three loads that i have come up with
57145
(-from Left to Right-)
1.Unique between 4.7-5.2 grains, lee 125grain RN, OAL=1.055
2.Bullseye between 3.5-3.9 grains, lee 125grain RN, OAL=1.088
3.Bullseye between 4.3-4.5 grains, 115 hornaday FMJ, OAL=1.155 this is close to stock Winchester 125fmj
-this is my most accurate load so far. Groups are extremly tight, stacking bullets, driving nails....

All of these loads OAL function and cycle withought any james or extraction failures. However this is tailored for my gun. I hope this will give you something to play around with.

I used stock ammo to get my OAL and used the LEE loading handbook, and the Lyman Cast reloading handbook 4th Edition, for loads and length Min and Max for the 125grain lee RN and 115 FMJ. To answer your question, find the OAL depends on the boolits you are useing. For example I had to play around with my loads until I came up with OAL that functions withought any hickups for cast and fmj. Here are instructions that I found that might make the process a bit clearer for you. http://www.nosler.com/what-is-overall-cartridge-length.aspx


NOTE:
for the 1st load I am at maximum charge and pressure, however I do not have any anomylies in the spent casings, and there is no buldging in the primers either.

Forgot to mention i am useing Carnauba Red lube, with a .357 sizer. Fired about 400 boolits so far and there is very little leading.

[Boolseye]

+1 The Alox needs to dry completely. Leading can be caused by poor fit, not enough lube or both.
Remember that the 9mm is a special needs round for casters. There is a lot on this forum addressing these issues.
Easy to squash the bullet down to .354 or so on loading–will lead the barrel every time. A leading problem usually results in hard-to-remove streaks of lead in your bore, the flakes are possibly lead but may just be unburned powder. with serious leading, accuracy goes out the window, bullets start to tumble and pressures start to rise, all bad. You'll know it. Also, it takes forever to scrub out a badly leaded bore. No particular reason that I'd know that.

Oh, I almost forgot OAL. I go for the max oal that will feed and chamber well for my gun. For my SIG, that means 1.156" using the TL356-124TC. This leaves 2 micro bands exposed, with a taper crimp on the third one down from the nose. I also use a .38/.357 expander to further cut down on case swaging.

[Jal5]

Lots of posts here about the 9mm and leading issues. the expander spud in the reloading dies is a key to avoiding leading by expanding the case enough to not have the case swage down the lead boolit. A number of us are using Lee dies replacing the 9mm expander with a 38 S&W expander plug from Lee to avoid this. Joe

[Boolseye]

A number of us are using Lee dies replacing the 9mm expander with a 38 S&W expander plug from Lee to avoid this.
You can also use the Lyman multi-charge expander (a great die to have regardless).

[davidalyn]

I have found an OAL of 1.125-1.130 seems to work in most of the 9mm handguns I have owned when loading 125 or 135 grain cast bullets. I have even successfully used this length in two CZs even though many 9mm CZs seem to be short chambered. Lone Wolf barrels have a reputation of being short chambered. FYI, short chambered barrels can be lengthened rather easily using a finish reamer. I have lengthened many of my barrel chambers and recently did three CZ 75 SP-01 barrels for three of my USPSA shooting buddies.

[flysubcompact]

Lots of posts here about the 9mm and leading issues. the expander spud in the reloading dies is a key to avoiding leading by expanding the case enough to not have the case swage down the lead boolit. A number of us are using Lee dies replacing the 9mm expander with a 38 S&W expander plug from Lee to avoid this. Joe

That is interesting and I was afraid that might be causing leading. My Lyman book shows that a 9x19 Luger is supposed to be .380" on the finished case mouth. That is exactly where mine are after a trip throught the FC Die.

My Lee bullet sizer die is extruding .357" OD bullets, so I used a bullet puller to check one of those finished bullets. The part covered by case mouth is squished down to .356". That is my barrel ID. Is that a problem even if the exposed part is still at .357"? If it is a problem is it OK to fudge some on the case mouth OD?

[Jal5]

Ok so by pulling that one round you found out that the seating and crimping is squishing your boolit down to the same size as your bore, .356 and that is what causes the leading I think. Your boolit needs to be .357 to avoid leading. That is why I mentioned the expander die not expanding deep enough to prevent squishing the lead boolit down. Do a search on here about 9mm boolits and setting up the dies it will give you all the information you need.
that OD of the case mouth varies a bit too so that shouldn't be a problem. I think IIRC mine measures around .377 OD for the Lee 358125RF boolit that I am using for 9mm. Joe

[Balta]

I load that bullet for CZ75Sp01 and G17 at COL 1.10...no problems!

[flysubcompact]

Jal5,

I don't think I have an "expander" die in this Lee set, except for the flare insert on the powder fill. I have my Loadmaster set up in the following order:

Station 1- All cases have exteriors resized and deprimed at station 1. I remove the deprime pin. All hand reprimed/tumble cleaned cases then get cycled through the press in progressive fashion...

Station 2- Mouth flare/shell powder fill.

Station 3- Powder Cop die

Station 4- Bullet seat and set to partially close flare from Station 2.

Station 5- Lee factory crimp set to only squeeze mouth of casing to .380" (dimensions listed in my Lyman manual)

[Boolseye]

Flysub,
I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but the FC die can be part of the problem.
It has a carbide ring that squeezes not just the mouth but the entire case down to spec. This can case swage cast boolits >.001.
There are alternatives, or you can modify it so that it only crimps. Let me know if you're interested in that and I can pass along the mod.
-jp

[flysubcompact]

Boolseye,

Let me try backing off that FCD a tad on the next go round. I'm interested to see with leaving the case mouth OD .001" larger above book specs to see if prevents leading. Honestly, as aggravated with this thing I may wait untill next week to mess with it. :) Work on it with a cooler head. If that won't work I'll shout at you for the mod you mentioned.

[Boolseye]

Sounds good.

[Jal5]

It is that second die, that flares/expands the case. We swapped out the insert of the die and substituted the 38 S&W insert from Lee $3 part IIRC and that expands a little deeper into the case and a little wider so that the brass isn't swaging down the diameter of your boolit. It is only a little bit different in size but enough to prevent the swaging effect. Go to this page and see the thread that describes this in detail. Also search feature is your friend on this topic and many others.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod

That FCD does tend to swage down the whole round too which isn't helping you with the leading problem either.
Lots has been written on the forum about that too.

[flysubcompact]

Thanks Jal5. I reckon that was the mod you mentioned.Thanks for that.

BTW, I do and have used the search function a lot here. I just never find the right answers. :)

[flysubcompact]

Jal5,

Got to thinking about your .38 expander deal. I was at a local Bass Pro and they still had Lee 3 die sets in .38sp. Would that expander be part of that set? If so, that would be nice because I intend to also reload .38sp after I get the hang of doing 9mm. I could just rob that piece while running some 9's. Kind of kill two birds with one stone.

[Jal5]

Its a 38 S&W expander that you need, the 38 spl exander has different dimensions that will make for more expansion and less neck tension than what you need.

[flysubcompact]

Jal5, is that in the powder fill die like the 9mm flare one?

[Jal5]

yes that Lee powder thru expander die comes apart and you can clearly see the expander spud. That part can be replaced with the 38 S&W part by ordering it. Works like a charm to expand the case sufficiently at the mouth and down further yet not too much for your 9mm sized Boolit. :)

[MBuechle]

I concur on the expander size. I had leading in a PT-92 that was very persistent. Went from Lee 125 TL to a Mihec 125-358 and got a large improvement but it took a custom powder funnel/expander for my 550B to finally fix. Turned one on a lathe to an expander diameter of .365" for bullets sized to .358". I lube with White Labels BAC. I cast with air cooled 50/50 WW/Pb. I think I could go back to Recluse's Alox/Johnson's paste wax lube and be fine as well. The old hands here know about proper expander size but it seems to be under emphasized in troubleshooting threads. All of your careful boolit preparation can be un-done by a too small case. Although I have no experience with it, sounds like the Lee FCD can lead to the same result. I went back and turned a larger funnel for my .40 S&W as well. It shoots the Lee 175 TL and Recluse lube with zero leading, go figure!

[flysubcompact]

I intend to get the .38sp dies, but Mbuechle just gave me an idea. I have a bud that is a machinist, and he owes me a fave. I'll remove my 9mm expander, dimension it and have him make me one that will expand case mouths out to .358" ID's. I can then tweek finished bullet OD with crimp or FCD if needed.