PDA

View Full Version : Boolit lubes



leftiye
07-01-2007, 02:32 PM
I've been hanging around here (not really invisibly) for quite some time now and I've paid a lot of attention to lubes for some reason. And, I've learned quite a bit. But, not enough. Is there a thread that already goes into lubes in depth (the whole Magilla)? If not, how about it??

I've heared that lubes should have some but not too much true lubricant (reads oil or grease). Would a lube that was simply lube (lithium grease maybe) work? Why not?

Then they all have some kind of wax in them. This is often the main ingredient. Is this just a carrier for the oil or does it have a function of it's own? Does it do anything more than evaporate?

Why is Carnauba wax supposed to be a superior wax?

Why did the NRA formula people (Harrison) think that alox was the second coming? Especially when a lot of people think that LLA actually isn't a lube.

Are there other factors or properties that lubes should have? I've read that the best lubes aren't even lubricants, but are substances most often used as soldering fluxes (beeswax, rosin, etc.). How could this be? What actually does beeswax do that makes it desireable?

I know there are too many questions here, but what can one do? Thanks, Ted

44man
07-01-2007, 03:34 PM
It is simple! Don't even think about it. Make Felix or buy Lar's Carnauba red or Bullshops lube and be happy.
I, for one, do not like alox in any form. I have no idea why it has such a following.
Beeswax is the primary carrier and mixes with all kinds of things. It melts and you want all the other components to melt in the bore, or spread out when squeezed from the boolit. I still say alox burns. Any time there is stinky smoke from the muzzle, the lube is not working.

felix
07-01-2007, 04:41 PM
Lithium has too much viscosity for the most part, and its percentage to include is too hard to regulate. Store bought lubes with this component gets the lithium from lithium stearate, and the stearate seldom is higher than 15 percent. So, for kicks, let's say any more than 7 percent of lithium in any lube would be a fault. Use lithium lubes where water comes in contact with the final lube/grease. Water has problems washing off this component because of the extreme viscosity presented. Would be a good lube component to use for nasty revolters out of time. ... felix

felix
07-01-2007, 04:44 PM
Beeswax is one of the rare waxes that has holes built in which are excellent places for the "real" lube to hide and be carried. This particular wax does not care if the final "lube" is water soluble or not, and therefore is good for BP. ... felix

felix
07-01-2007, 04:56 PM
Carnauba and castor wax (hydrogenated castor oil) is a good wax for imparting a very hard surface on whatever it touches. Look at carnauba as a slick paint, something that deters other waxes from gathering "moss". Tends to be an automatic viscosity lowering wax without actually lowering the viscosity. It is not a "lube" when compared to castor wax, but caster wax is just as strong as adding lithium, if not more so. Castor wax has the advantage of being extremely hard. For those who like to play with liquid alox concoctions, you might try melting and using castor wax exclusively. Now, that would be a hard coat of wax and should be sticky enough viscosity wise for just about anything. Consider it to be a hard version of a lithium lube. ... felix

leftiye
07-02-2007, 12:32 AM
Thanks a lot guys. As I said earlier, if there's a difinitive thread on lubes somewhere, please post it ( the url). Otherwise, please educate me/us all. I'd like to get a real understanding of this subject. There are several excellent threads in some of the stickies, and I've read most all of them already. Otherwise, why don't we beat this subject up some.

Bass Ackward
07-02-2007, 06:52 AM
Leftyie,

Beat it up, how exactly?

There are many facets to .... bullet lube. There is basic and sometimes advanced chemistry in the manufacture. Are all the products safe to use? Will they combine? Are there any there that will promote leading or are abrasive or persistent? Will they harden? How will they clean out? And after you have everything you want, what and how much is needed to bind everything together?

Then you have to determine what lube consistency best serves delivery of the finished product under the conditions you will use it. You might even need to consider bullet design here as well because you have designs with scrapers that must carry all the lube that it needs for itself or olgivals that will run over what's there and use some of that. If you are working with fixed designs, they carry what they carry and now YOU must change something.

There is understanding viscosity level adaptation if you want to use just one lube formula and jingle the formula around to try and make it work for everything or is this meant to be a one solution product. How does your idea of costs figure into the lube equation?

There is separation of the lube to consider and methods for separation testing. You might want to know how long you can store lubed bullets or loaded ammunition. And in order to know if it lasts one year, your test must last one year plus.

There are temperature extremes to consider especially cold weather properties if you want to use softer lead. I couldn't find much here and spent three winters shooting below freezing. As low as 22 below to find out what I wanted to know. I am sure that there are guys that must deal with high heat for long stretches that have had just as much to overcome. How can bullet design help you in this area? How can " I " work around lube? This is a major education in itself. See, I hate lube. So anything I can do to get me around changing anything is definitely on my plate. I will even consider and perform techniques to alter bore condition to avoid problems.

So basically that is my considerations on the subject of Bullet Lube. Are there more? Oh yea. Properties for long shot strings between cleaning and keeping fouling soft come to mind. How BP properties differ from smokeless. etc. And none of this is sanctioned as gospel because rifling height and bore condition can alter everything. In fact, so will using the same gun through it's life expectancy.

Lube has to blend into understanding hardness and the relationships of hardness to bore condition and temperature too. Either that or you simply become a changer. A person that changes lube until he finds one that works best. But that takes time and expense too. And finally you can even get into incorporating bullet design to solve lube problems. Can I finally reach that "one lube can do all" goal? It's all a balanced relationship in my mind.

So I guess what I am asking is, what part do you want to discuss?

44man
07-02-2007, 07:02 AM
I guess I have to agree, it is a very interesting subject and we are all searching for the perfect lube. Thankfully we have a lot of smart guys with chemistry backgrounds. Felix has a way of explaining things so stupid people like me can understand and we just have to twist his arm a little to continue until we exhaust him.
I am very happy with some of our better lubes but am always searching for the secret ingredient that will make a black powder lube better. But then, Lar even makes a great lube for that too.

Bass Ackward
07-02-2007, 12:05 PM
1. I've heared that lubes should have some but not too much true lubricant (reads oil or grease). Would a lube that was simply lube (lithium grease maybe) work? Why not?

2. Then they all have some kind of wax in them. This is often the main ingredient. Is this just a carrier for the oil or does it have a function of it's own? Does it do anything more than evaporate?

3. Why is Carnauba wax supposed to be a superior wax?

4. Why did the NRA formula people (Harrison) think that alox was the second coming? Especially when a lot of people think that LLA actually isn't a lube.

5. Are there other factors or properties that lubes should have? I've read that the best lubes aren't even lubricants, but are substances most often used as soldering fluxes (beeswax, rosin, etc.). How could this be? What actually does beeswax do that makes it desireable?

I know there are too many questions here, but what can one do? Thanks, Ted


Ted,

Sorry. I read it again. Step by step.

1. A lot of what you hear about too much lube depends on the lubricant itself. You can have too much of some things and not be hurt by more of others. Lithium grease is one of these. It doesn't matter if you make it 50 /50 strength or 75/25. Probably because of the low actual lithium percentage. SO it is a pretty broad application lube. Maybe the widest. I shoot a fair amount of it. Problem there is it has a flash point and can be hazardous to make.

2. I have shot plain bees wax and for light aplications you can make it work. Then again so will Bees wax and Vasoline or a billion others. So regardless of what bees wax actually does, all I want ask of it is to be is my carrier.

3. Why? Persistance maybe. It does coat the bore nicely. I even use Flitz gun wax that has bees wax and Caranuba in it as a bore prep for that first shot. What it actually does I don't know. You might even add I don't care. Have I ever told you I hate lubes? All I know is that any lube I get my hands on is melted down and Carnuba added if it ain't already supposed to be in there. And my reason is that it works for me.

4. At that time most lubes were special application types. Water pump grease etc. NRA mix was and maybe still is the easiest lube to use for the widest range of cast bullet uses. It can be made to work from handguns to rifles with minimum reservations. Minimum maeans just that. It don't like to be pushed very well. Or I should say that you won't like it if you do. But when I get a beginner, it is the lube I recommend for them to learn on. All things Alox are not the same chemical composition too. Are there better lubes? I have 5 lubrisizers and 50/50 ain't in one of them. But that don't mean it won't be at some point in the future.

5. Can't help you much here except some of the best lubes that experts claim are best lubes ain't even on list of the top 100. And just realize that number 100 is dog do do. Rooster Red has been around for decades. So someone is buying it. Ain't me though. You couldn't run fast enough to hand me a tube of Rooster Red if both my legs were broke. Another guy will come along and say he wants to be burried with the darn stuff.

One way to look at lube is that the slipperier a lube is, the more options you have to go faster or softer or both. You can just about always add less of it and get by but seldom the other way around.

leftiye
07-02-2007, 04:14 PM
Thanks to you all. B.A. as usual, one hardly knows where to begin in responding. I guess I'll maybe throw in some of my biases as that seems to be what you were asking. It won't help (bet on it). I confess I've got a little of the "romantic" in me, I dare to hope for what everyone says is impossible. Not that I really expect to find or create that end all of lubes, I just think it's the direction to strive toward. I'm using Lar's Carnauba red with a little of bullshop's Bullplate lube added to soften it. It doesn't leave anything but shiny in my bore, I'm just estatic! I can't hold tight enough to shoot the kind of groups that I read about here all of the time, need to make myself a good BR table, and get my Caldwell HAMMR set up, and scopes on my peestols.

But that's the direction my theenking goes. I use it on everything, rifles, revolters, and even the 9mm (da** lee boolit doesn't hold enough lube). I also like Lyman spray on Moly Lube (still nothing on the bore). With a clean powder, these two together hardly leave enough behind to tell that the barrel has been fired.

I like the idea that there be nothing in the lube that itself isn't doing anything besides carrying something else. This enables smaller amounts of lube to do the job (god knows with the new boolit designs there's precious little room for lube). Plus it isn't just there to become fouling later. I don't like hard lubes. A lube that just stays in the loob grooves probly didn't do anythang whilst traveling down the bore.

I really don't want this thread to be about my meager knowledge of lubes, and definitely not about my preferences, but maybe it's a starting place. How about the idea that the best lube would coat the whole boolit, and prevent leading by not wearing off? Copper does this, but the lead under the copper melts, and you lose the plating.

Bass Ackward
07-02-2007, 05:21 PM
I'm using Lar's Carnauba red with a little of bullshop's Bullplate lube added to soften it.

I really don't want this thread to be about my meager knowledge of lubes, and definitely not about my preferences, but maybe it's a starting place. How about the idea that the best lube would coat the whole boolit, and prevent leading by not wearing off? Copper does this, but the lead under the copper melts, and you lose the plating.


Ted,

Of course you can tell that my knowledge of lube isn't top rate either. What makes an accurate lube? The reloader.

Lube either prevents leading or it don't. If it does, I will make it an accurate lube within the range that it continues to prevent leading. The better the lube, the more options I have to find loads that works or to push the limits of velocity. Just that simple.

Sizing bullets will teach you a lot. I know from sizing bullets that lubes that coat the surface work best when little sizing is required. So the success of any surface lube depends on it's ability to stay where its applied and not be used up. This means the bullet better be hard enough for the bore condition and the pressure range to resist the obturating pressure of the load or it will be used up fast. Then you lead.

Biases. We all have them.

Ricochet
07-02-2007, 05:46 PM
Sizing bullets will teach you a lot. I know from sizing bullets that lubes that coat the surface work best when little sizing is required. BA, do you think that applies to sizing in the bore as well? As in, the bullet that starts fairly close to groove diameter and needs little sizing down on firing vs. one several thousandths oversize?

Bass Ackward
07-02-2007, 09:39 PM
BA, do you think that applies to sizing in the bore as well? As in, the bullet that starts fairly close to groove diameter and needs little sizing down on firing vs. one several thousandths oversize?


Ric,

I would say that is basically true. A sizer removes and or redistributes excess lube from grooved bullets too. What it teaches you is how sizing angles affect and create a hydraulic action. How can a barrel sizer be different from a normal sizer?

Four factors: angle of the sizer, (Throat size and shape) velocity, pressure, and bullet hardness. A slow gentle taper can create a hydraulic effect easier. In fact, you can actually change bullet diameter in a sizer by changing the viscosity of lube on the bullet. The speed with which the sizing occurs also aids the hydrologic effect as less time is available for the lube to disperse. And remember, it is under pressure to move forward and stay with the bullet as long as the seal is maintained.

Where most lube failures occur is when obturation on the base (friction) from too much pressure for the hardness pushes out hard enough to use up the hydraulics fluid or lube. I theorize that increased friction creates increased heat. Heat lowers the viscosity of lubricants allowing faster heat transfer and boil off. The larger the lube reservoir or the better the friction fighting capability of the lube, the better off you are in this case. All lubes will smoke to some degree at their failure point.

Ricochet
07-02-2007, 09:50 PM
And I'm thinking, too, that a bullet starting as close as practical to the final groove diameter (but not undersized) will put less demand on the lube to keep the lead and steel separated, IF the bullet doesn't have to pass through a substantial "freebore" section of chamber where the bullet is unsupported and obturates outward due to accelerating force from the rear, requiring sizing down again when it reaches the rifling. If the bullet's going to "slug up" in a loose chamber and then be sized back down, it's more likely to stay consistently concentric if it starts out oversized to fit the loose chamber, then gets sized down the same every time. There are enough variables in individual bullets' hardnesses and shot-to-shot pressure curves that I can't imagine that there's much consistency in obturation in the chamber throat.

Bass Ackward
07-03-2007, 06:41 AM
And I'm thinking, too, that a bullet starting as close as practical to the final groove diameter (but not undersized) will put less demand on the lube to keep the lead and steel separated, IF the bullet doesn't have to pass through a substantial "freebore" section of chamber where the bullet is unsupported and obturates outward due to accelerating force from the rear, requiring sizing down again when it reaches the rifling. If the bullet's going to "slug up" in a loose chamber and then be sized back down, it's more likely to stay consistently concentric if it starts out oversized to fit the loose chamber, then gets sized down the same every time. There are enough variables in individual bullets' hardnesses and shot-to-shot pressure curves that I can't imagine that there's much consistency in obturation in the chamber throat.


I'd say you are right. Obturation will seal and that is the problem. Obturation is merciless at taking advantage of the smallest bullet imperfection the more space it has to fill. That's why guys choke.

It's hard to visualize every possible senario. And in the end, you have to try it anyway. :grin:

But this does explain some of the difference in lubes and lube amounts. Why it is important is that it really isn't to most people. But for someone trying to maximize a soft lead situation, you can have too much viscosity also. Which is why I have trouble with lanolin type lubes. Especially in the cold. As my velocity increases, I size down to the point that rotational forces kill me first.

Balance.


Would you believe that my best accuracy in a wheelgun with a surface lube, IS with under bore sized bullets? And no leading after 50 rounds. It ain't great accuracy, but comparred to some of my lesser results ..................

felix
07-03-2007, 09:32 AM
BA and Leftiye, prolly you both should experiment with a castor wax, with plus or minus some carnauba, for your surface only lube. Castor wax can expand and contract considerably whereas carnauba won't without cracking. The supposition is that a compromise mixture can be tailored for ambient conditions as well as the other variables. However, I suspect castor wax will follow lanolin's pattern in the lower temperatures until proven otherwise (via the former's hardness). ... felix

leftiye
07-03-2007, 02:59 PM
Actually, I don't trust surface lubes really. Probly I should say -by themselves. I use them to boost the conventional lube in the grooves, especially when the lube grooves are too small, or velocity is high.

So far, I'm getting the idea that a good lube might be something with one of these hard waxes that act as a lube by separating the boolit from the bore with their coating, plus the best actual lubricant (reads oil) you can find. Am I missing anything essential here- are there other considerations?

Further, How about just avoiding those things like lanolin which get so hard (when cold or otherwise) that they themselves constitute fouling and deform the boolit as it passes?

Anybody got any favorite super loobing ingredients?

Bullshop
07-03-2007, 08:00 PM
"Anybody got any favorite super loobing ingredients?"
Bull Plate lube!
I store it in my unheated garage and at -50F it is still liquid. At that temp its not even thick and pours freely.
We do some pretty good shooting up here in winter with speed green lube. Our cut off for too cold to shoot is about -35F, thats minus 35 F. Thats not for lube problems but a comfort issue.
BIC/BS

Bass Ackward
07-04-2007, 06:33 AM
"Anybody got any favorite super loobing ingredients?"
Bull Plate lube!
I store it in my unheated garage and at -50F it is still liquid. At that temp its not even thick and pours freely.
We do some pretty good shooting up here in winter with speed green lube. Our cut off for too cold to shoot is about -35F, thats minus 35 F. Thats not for lube problems but a comfort issue.
BIC/BS


I can vouch for this. I found out because my bottle of Bull Plate accidentally fell into my freezer for a few days until it was noticed that it was missing. Dang thing was so cold, when I took it out, that I dropped it in the process of setting it down and it fell into and contaminated an open pan of bees wax. I was forced to try and utilize it. :grin:

Another wide range lube choice for the fella that has only one lubrisizor.

One of these days that boy is going to wake up and realize that Gods real intended purpose for Bull Plate lube was as a bore prep. Used sparingly, loads and guns that leaded, don't if you can get passed those first few shots where your lube can handle the job. Why I have even shot lead in virgin barrels using Bull Plate to get the show started off right. Another way of stating that is that Bull Plate cuts down break-in time for those shooting lead by always keeping a fresh lead bullet polishing rough steel instead of lead from the bullet before.

But don't no body tell him he could be peddlin another product. :grin:

Bass Ackward
07-04-2007, 07:25 AM
However, I suspect castor wax will follow lanolin's pattern in the lower temperatures until proven otherwise (via the former's hardness). ... felix


Thanks Felix. I am game. Winters just around the corner. :grin:

felix
07-04-2007, 08:38 AM
John, just make sure the stuff is soluble enough to clean the gun with your normal cleaning supplies before shooting it. We surely don't want the "boolit paint" to leave a ridiculous barrel coating. ... felix

Bullshop
07-04-2007, 10:13 AM
***But don't no body tell him he could be peddlin another product.***

HMMMM, Bull Bore, I like it! $5.00 per 2 oz bottle, yea I like it![smilie=w:
BIC/BS

leftiye
07-06-2007, 10:18 AM
What are these polymer lubes that I saw mentioned in another thread? Anything special that they are good for that would be good to know?

BOOM BOOM
07-18-2007, 03:04 PM
HI,
I just had a chance to read this. Interesting!
I started to expriment w/ lubes last year when some hard lube broke my lubesizer. Had bought 5 tubes of the rcbs hard lube not realizing it was a hard lube.
Ted helped me fix the lubesizer so then I had all this lube I could not use.
Also had 2 bottles of spit ball black powder (very soft) revolver lube but did not have a BP revolver.
So what the heck ! I melted them together, result was too soft, so added some old tolet bowl beeswax and walla! It works great in my 44 & 357 loads.
Only problem is I probibly won"t be able to recreate it & now I have run out.
Humm? Wounder how ball joint grease mixed w/ Lyman 50/50 alox would do in my pistols?

piwo
07-18-2007, 06:43 PM
Long as we're talking about lubes of different types, does the beeswax in a lube somehow encase the Crisco it's mixed with so the Crisco won't spoil? I've got a large batch of 80% Crisco, 18% beeswax and 2% paraffin, and to touch it in the tins its firm enough to "knock" it with your knuckles, unlike pure Crisco which is goo. But I was just wondering about spoilage. This is not an issue? Something molecular going on?

An odd concoction perhaps, but it's my current BP boolit lube for big conicals.

leftiye
07-19-2007, 04:08 PM
I have a spray can of Lyman Moly Spray lube that I've been using on everything. And it works fine. I went to the Midway catalog to see about more. It's almost TWENTY dollars for a thirteen oz. can! Best I can estimate, I got about 200 boolits sprayed with it so far. The danged stuff costs more than it would cost to buy boolits ready to go (200 each).

Anybody know where to get castor wax, or Carnauba? Think I'll have to take felix's advise and use those for surface lubes. Could even add moly powder to it, but it might be nice to not have that black stuff in the process/picture.

leftiye
07-19-2007, 04:11 PM
Piwo, I can't answer your question. You might have to wait and see if it smells bad lol. P.S, it might still be a good, if stinky, lube!

Ricochet
07-19-2007, 07:08 PM
Crisco is not known for spoiling easily, anyway.

BOOM BOOM
07-20-2007, 02:50 PM
HI,
Stinkest lube I ever used was hambuger greese in a BP 54 round ball rifle.
WORKED TOO!

hivoltfl
07-20-2007, 09:58 PM
Well i guess I will add my two cents here as I have gleaned lots of ideas from you folks and thank you for it all, I have been having leading problems like never before, I swear it must be a lunar wobble caused by a sun spot on the third sun of Oquium, any how I had made several changes, LUBE was one and I started casting and shooting a 150gr SWC plain base Lyman bullet that kinda resembles a KT but not. yesterday I made a trip to the range with 3 different bullets lubed with 2 different lubes, Lars45 2500, my first attemt with it, on the Lyman 150, a RCBS 150 KT and a 168gr KT lubed with blue angel, all in 357 mag, gun is a T/C Contender with a 14 inch tube, I shot the 168 and RCBS rounds first about 60 of them and had not the first sign of leading, in fact I shot the best group of my life a 5 shot group in the center if the 10 ring that a nickel will cover, I like the lube but its pretty messy as hot as it is here, was 102 today with near 100% humidity, I then shot the 20 150gr Lyman SWC and my leading showed up big time with accuarcy going south after 5 shots.
I am now pretty sure that the old lube I was using AND that 150gr SWC were the culprits.
Tonight I spent 2 hours getting the lead out of my barrel, then I lubed up 200 RCBS 150 KT with Carnuba Red, I did not need my heater as the ambient is still pretty warm, any way thats my story.

Range was 50 yards with the gun rested on the forestock, 150's loaded with 5 grains of 231, 168's had 7 grains of Unique

Thanks Lars45 your lube is great.

Rick

leftiye
07-24-2007, 11:53 AM
Hi, Yesterday, I ordered 2lbs each of Carnaube and Castor waxes. I'll try coating some boolits first with the castor wax (Felix rated this as better than lithium grease in a previous post in this thread, and it's even harder than Carnauba IIRC) and post here as to how it works. I'll heat the boolits, and wax, and coat the boolits first, then lube with Lar's C-Red. One thing I've had happen lately is boolits pulling out under recoil in my .454. I'm wondering if surface lubes might cause this?

45nut
07-24-2007, 12:11 PM
I would think the recoil lengthening would be to in-sufficient neck tension, too big of a bell maybe?
I have fired tons of 454's thru my SRH's and not had that issue, a minimum bell to get the boolit in and a nice roll crimp to keep them there is what I go for.

44man
07-24-2007, 04:28 PM
Thats my opinion, too large of an expander and not enough tension. I don't have trouble with any lube. The expander should also be short and only enter the case 1/4" or less, leaving the rest as it comes out of the size die.
I would bet it is RCBS dies causing the problem.