Bob S's M1 Recipe

[45nut]

I just HAD to get this info over here from the archives... indulge me.

I've posted this here before, so if some guys are sick of reading it, I apologize to them. My cast load for the M1 was developed when I was a poverty-stricken undergraduate student in the 60's. Bullet was 311284, cast out of wheel weights (which were much harder in 1968 than they are today); Hornady gas checks, the then new-fangled Alox-Beeswax lube; and they were sized to .309 for my rifle. Powder charge was 42 grains of WW II surplus 4831 that was sold by Hodgdon for $1 a pound; less if you bought it in bulk. Over the charge was 1/4 sheet of TP; old FA or WW II contract ball cases; CCI 200 primer. The bullets needed to be seated deep ( to the "dirt groove) in order to fit in the magazine. There are a few "rules" violated here: powder allegedly too slow for M1 gas system, bullet too heavy; bullet seated deeply into powder space. The charge is so light that the op rod seems to get a long gentle shove instead of a sharp push. I never had any difficulties with it. Like wise, the deep seated bullets did not seem to seriously hurt grouping. Groups (fired prone) went about 2-1/2-3" at 100 yards, about the same as the M2 ball that was around then. (this was not a "match" rifle) I may have had one or two failures to feed in the hundreds of rounds that I fired. I used to break it down and clean after shooting this load; and I would usually find a few flecks of lead on the gas piston that would brush off with an old bronze bore brush: I cleaned the gas cylinder with a 16ga shotgun brush and patches, and never had a lead problem there.

Today I would start with 40 grains of new-production 4831; if you are using post-1970 wheel weights, you will probably need to add some type metal to it. One thing you must never due with the M1: never, ever load the bullet to engrave in the throat. You will be asking for a slam-fire and the results won't be pretty.

BTW, the same load tweaked for the 03A3, and shot at 200 and 300 yards, got me my first Master classification in 1973.



Resp'y,

Bob S.

[45nut]

Here's another one for you. About 22 years ago, I started running out of WW II surplus 4831, and could not get any more. I totally forgot about this one when I did my last post. I tried 38 grains of DuPont 4350, and the results were about the same. This is from my old notebook, and I think you can read the scribble:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1Cast.jpg

That's about the "usual" performance for 100 yards prone in the sling. Note the elevation: 24 clicks. My 100 yard zero with M2 ball for this rifle is/was 11 clicks. HTH.

Joe B: "You've got mail"



Resp'y,

Bob S.

[45nut]

Bob's load is detailed in the sticky just above this post.

I used 45nut's 311284 mould both in "stock" form and in a beagled version attempting to get the nose diameter up a trifle.

42 grains of OLD H4831, a wee pinch of dacron instead of toilet tissue, and away we went. There were 'way too many people out enjoying a fine day at the range for me to do any serious target work, so I contented myself with some off-hand plinking....call it function-testing if it sounds better than "plinking".

First thing I noticed was that, even though I had no idea what I fired last in this rifle, or the sight setting, the bullets were landing PRECISELY on the point of aim at 100 yards. If the sights were on an object when the shot broke, that object was HIT, and no doubt about it! This applied right down to small rocks of (I'll estimate) six inches and less. DANG! From the hind laigs, yet!

The only flaw was that on every clip load, the last round failed to feed. I fired with six different clips, and the first seven rounds from each worked perfectly. The eighth round in each clip either failed to be picked-up by the bolt (closing on the empty chamber) or else was a misfeed which stopped the bolt before it closed completely. It may be that the load has to be raised slightly for my rifle, or else the op-rod spring is marginal for strength to get that last round elevated in time for the bolt to pick it up. The last round presents the situation of the maximum extension of the op-rod spring, and hence the least available amount of pressure on the follwer. I believe I have a brand-new spring here on hand, so I reckon I'll try that first.

Pressures in Bob's load appear to be very moderate, with primers showing pronounced roundness compared to other loads I've used in this rifle. I sure do wish that 45nut's 311284 threw a boolit just a couple thou larger in diameter, but even so, I was really impressed with how "hittable" this load is in my rifle. Now I'm really eager to put it to work from the rest, on paper.

Very impressive, Bob, and thanks for the recipe.


Regards from BruceB in Nevada

[45nut]

LIKE this rifle!)

I'm starting this thread because this is intended to be an on-going project for some time. It's often difficult to sort through archives, etc. and find definitive information on a single subject, so in this case at least, I want to have the results available for the next poor soul who ventures into this particular wilderness.

So. Yesterday, on the Garand and #4 Mk2 thread, I served notice to all and sundry that I'd be trying some different things with this Rifle, M1, caliber .30. I loaded 19 different combinations yeaterday, all using IMR 4227 powder, in amounts of 23.0. 24.0, 25.0, and 26.0 grains.

The bullets, loaded in five-round batches at each of the above charge levels, were: Lee 312-155 spirepoint (159 grains), 311466 Loverin (153 grains), 311467 Loverin (181 grains), 311413 spirepoint (184 grains)and 311299 semi-pointed (211 grains). All boolits were in water-dropped wheelweights, all were sized .311", all were lubed with felix lube. All were seated using the same adjustment on the seating die, and all fell within the 3.050-3.074" overal length range, and all functioned perfectly in manual feeding from the clip.

The rounds were loaded into a five-round competition-style Garand clip, and were fed manually from that device.

Firing was from the benchrest in Der Schuetzenwagen, with Hoppes' front rest and sandbags under the butt. Iron sights, of course, and distance was fifty yards on the 100-yard NMLRA round black bull (about 8" in diameter). Lighting was perfect, and wind was not a factor. Keepp in mind that my mark I eyeballs are 61 years old!

One of my goals today was to START finding the bottom level of correct Garand function with quicker-burning powders. None of the loads listed drove the action back far enough to chamber a succeeding round or eject the clip. SOME rounds opened the bolt far enough to capture the fired case against the breech face, and some of the heavier loads at the 26.0 level ejected all five rounds in the series, but again, not the clip. No load showed high pressure, which isn't surprising as I was still EIGHT GRAINS under Lyman's max load for 150-grain boolits.

Some combos showed serious promise, but these should only be seen as possible indicators for the future, because the goal is accuracy WITH correct semi-auto function. Two of the best targets today were fired with
.....surprise, surprise....311413! This ancient spirepoint design landed a 1.2" group with 23.0 grains at 1790 fps average, and 1.3" with 24.0 grains 4227 at 1920 fps! The heavy 311299 put five into 1.4", travelling at 1745 fps ahead of 24.0 4227.

Also a surprise, the Lee 312-155 had not distinguished itself at lower charges, but with 25.0/2071 fps, it grouped five rounds into 1.3" Most other loads seemed to yield 2"-3" groups, plus a couple real sprawlers at the higher levels....like an 8" vertical "group" with 311299 and 26.0 grains!

I was putting up three targets at a time, so the rifle got a bit of cooling every fifteen rounds. Of course, there was also a short break to write down chrono data and load the clip for each five rounds. On inspecting the barrel following this 100-round stretch, and added to the 100 rounds yesterday, AND adding about four hundred CB rounds before THAT.... I find the barrel is sparkling-clean, not just "sorta clean", but I mean it looks I just DID clean it! No leading, no flecks, no nothing, just brilliant shine. I sure am not going to tear it down just to look inside the gas system, either. All these last 200 rounds used dacron fill, by the way.

Where to from here? Groups seemed to be starting to open up overall. I think I might push these boolits a wee bit faster with 4227, perhaps a grain or two higher. Function should improve, certainly, but accuracy??? However, I suspect it will be more useful to try some 3031 and Re 7 in the search for function with accuracy, too. The expedition continues....

It was interesting, and enjoyable. Spending time with a good rifle is a true pleasure.


Regards from BruceB in Nevada

[45nut]

Bruce:

If your M2 Ball is Lake City, and if it is pre-1966, good prone groups should run you 2-1/2 to 3" at 100 yards, sufficient to clean the SR target, if you hold hard. Post-66 Lake City is crap ... sometime in there I think they quit doing maintenance on the cal. .30 line, as they and Twin Cities were straining their butts to turn out 5.56 and 7.62 for the SEA theatre, and there was little or no requirement for .30 for us. If you have the capability to spin the ammo for run-out, you will find that about half of it (late LC) will run .015" or over. Most of the rest will be under .005, which is satisfactory for ball (not Match). If you can cull out the really crooked ones, the ammo will group OK.

The thing with slow powders in the Garand is the residual pressure in the chamber when the op-rod tries to open the bolt (flatter pressure curve and slow barrel time): if the case is still gripping the chamber walls tightly when the rod tries to open the bolt, something's gotta give: the rod bends (it flexes under normal use, but not past the yield point), or the case rim bends or gets ripped off. We had a lot of bent case rims with the Navy 7.62 long range load in the 70's, (fired in Mk2-1, the M1 with a 7.62 match barrel) which was the Sierra 190 gr MK with a dose of 4320, the exact charge I do not remember. We tossed the cases, and I didn't own the rifle, so if the op rod got tweaked, there was more where that one came from.

With these cast loads, the peak pressure is so low to begin with, so the residual pressure must be next to nothing. The op-rod gets a long gentle "shove" instead of a sharp push: I never had a problem with the op-rod or the cases (no problems with lead, either). But try to load a 220 grain jacketed bullet with a "jacketed" charge of 4831 or 4350 and all hell witll break loose!!!

Resp'y,

Bob S.

[45nut]

This was my "civilian year", got released from active duty in Sept '72, went back in May '74. In this pic, I am the only guy with a beard, and the rifle is a TRW National Match:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/ma_hp_team_1973.jpg

Some noteable rifles in that picture:

Dave Yankus, lower left ... that's a National Ordnance investment cast 03A3 "clone", with a two groove Remington barrel. Thay are not GI, not smooth and not pretty, but you can make 'em shoot. The only "enhancement" it had was the Lyman 48 sight. That is one rifle that I know of that would really shoot the 311413 really well. No I don't remember what he loaded behind it, if I did I would make a bunch of it.

Mike McTavish, lower right, worked at Savage (pic was taken at the Westfield Mass Sportsman's Club), and his rifle was an experimental Savage Match rifle in .308. I don't think they ever produced it in that configuration.

Bob Nash (second guy to the right of me) had a Remington 700 or 721, I don't remember which, but the memorable thing about it is that it had a barrel with a 1:14 twist .... in 30-06!!!! It did OK with the Sierra 168's out to 300 yards, but I remember him complaining that they wouldn't hold together at 600. I asked whyinthehell did he get that twist (remember this almost 20 years before the 155 grain Palma bullet was "invented") and he said it was just a colossal brain fart.



Resp'y,

Bob S.

[45nut]

I made it to the gravel pit at 0800 this morning, meaning I had a couple hours before the temperature neared triple figures.

Using Bob's load of 38.0/IMR4350 under four different bullets, I had an interesting outing. All loads used a small tuft of dacron. The 311466 Loverin, about 155 grains, did NOT like the charge, running 1880 and spreading five rounds four inches vertically from 50 yards. The Lee 312-155 put five out of eight into about an inch, seven in 1.5"..... the first round was a flyer 1.5" left. 311467, a 180-grain loverin, put seven rounds in 1.5", and AGAIN the first round was a flyer, two inches left. 311299 at 210 grains was the heaviest boolit used today, and it ran 1856 and placed six rounds out of eight in 1.10 inches....but the FIRST round was a low flyer two inches out, and the LAST round was almost in the same hole as the first one.

I clearly have a first-round-flyer problem. Even on the high-stringing 311466 load, the first round also landed two inches left of the "group". I wonder what's going on here? Powder position shouldn't have any effect, since the charge is topped with dacron to immobilize it. Therefore, the difference in chambering force from manually releasing the bolt to semi-auto chambering should not really affect the charge. Maybe there's a difference in just where the bolt comes to rest with the differing force??

Mostly out of curiosity, and conceding the necessity of cleaning the rifle afterward, I fired thirteen rounds of 'service-duplication' ammo....150 FMJ Hornadys at 2640 fps. The group of 13 formed in the same general area as the cast rounds, which is interesting. The group is just over 1.1", which means the rifle is shooting most cast-boolit loads as well as it does an 'undeveloped' jacketed load. I find that very encouraging.

Functioning was perfect with the 4350 loads, and recoil/blast were much less than what was demonstrated with the factory-level jacketed rounds. This is also encouraging....it means the 4350 load is being very gentle on the operating system. Most of the extreme spreads were in the 120-fps bracket, which is higher than I like but perhaps is due to the fact that the powder is burning under much lower pressure than normal. If the accuracy pans out, i won't worry overmuch about it. No unburned powder was evident.

On stripping the rifle at the cleaning bench in the van, I found ZERO leading or any traces of same in any part of the rifle. The gas system showed only normal carbon deposits, with no lead or dacron visible anywhere. This inspection came after hundreds of rounds of cast loads without cleaning of any kind. I did lube the action sparingly from time to time, without disassembly. Come to think of it, maybe some crud was causing the bolt to behave slightly-differently when manually releasing the bolt. Oh goody....something else to test!





Regards from BruceB in Nevada

[45nut]

My M1 load was 311284, cast in straight pre-historic wheelweights, Lyman Alox-beeswax lube (this was when it was first introduced, and the first application I made of it) with Hornady gas checks; powder charge was 42 grains of WW II surplus 4831, FA cases, Rem 9-1/2 primers, and I always used 1/4 sheet of TP over the powder. Grouping was about as good as M2 ball of the time (mid-60's); functioning was very reliable, and I got no leading at all in the bore, a few flakes on the gas piston that whisked away easily with an old brass bore brush.

In order for these to work in the magazine, they had to be deep-seated. I didn't notice any ill-effects from this.

The load grouped well enough out of the gas-gun, that I tried it in my 03's and 03A3's. It truely excelled in those rifles, keeping ten rounds into 1-1/2 MOA or less out to 300 yards.



Resp'y,

Bob S.



The rifle I had at the time was an IH "shooter", and I disassembled and cleaned the gas system everytime I fired it.

If you have a properly tuned match rifle, the gas cylinder splines are peened so the gas cylinder is an interference fit on the barrel. Routine disaasembly is not desireable.



Resp'y,

Bob S.

[Scrounger]

If I remember correctly, that "First round out of group" thing was a fairly common complaint with the Garand and other semi-autos. Popular opinion was that it was caused by chambering the first round differently, more gently, than suceeding rounds, which are slammed in by the rifle.

[bobob]

I have been shooting the 311413 boolit with 43 grains 4831 for many years in my NM M1. Groups average 2 inches at 100 yards. I have never had a feeding problem, leading, or gas cylinder leading problem. I have killed many deer and antelope with this load.