.303 British Neck Sizing...without lubricant

[BruceB]

One article of faith among those veddy-veddy gentlemanly tweedy types of yore who shot long-range matches with the .303 #4 Mk 1/2, is that the ammunition and the chamber must, repeat MUST, be free of oil, grease, or other slickums that might reduce the traction of the tapered case against the chamber. Most such practices are well-based in over a century of target-shooting research with the olde Enfield and its equally-geriatric cartridge.

For a considerable length of time, I've been striving to maintain such conditions in my .303 rifle chambers. The current batch of brass I'm using, upwards of 600 rounds or thereabouts, was all bought new from commercial sources, and has only been fired in one rifle. Most of it has been loaded at least six or more times, and there have been no case failures to date.

Note that I took NO precautions with this brass against the first-firing "stretch" which afflicts cases fired in military .303 chambers. Even without such precautions, the brass life is excellent.

The main reason for this is the fact that I only neck-size the cases, taking pains not to touch the shoulder with the sizing die. A sharply-tapered case like the .303B makes avoiding die contact with the shoulder rather easy.

In my normal routine, brass coming home from the range goes directly into my tumbler, with 1/8"-grind corncob and a shpritz of Turtle Wax "Scratch and Swirl Remover". The cases emerge brilliantly shiny, far brighter than new factory brass, and CLEAN. The question became, how to maintain the pristine state of the brass, and not guck it up with some lube which then would be very difficult to totally remove, and which could harm the rifle's performance through chamber contamination.

It turned out that the answer was simple. For over two years now, I've neck-sized my freshly-tumbled .303 brass with no lube at all. After some thousands of rounds through the sizer, there's still no measurable change in dimensions. The neck-sizing effort is minimal.

I avoided mentioning this until now, because I wanted to have a large number of cases sized in the die before reporting my conclusion: it works. There's no apparent harm to the die from the lack of sizing lube.

Cast-boolit lubes don't seem to migrate onto the cases (and chamber) when fired, at least as long as pressure is high enough for good sealing of the chamber. Cases look just a bit grubbier than they were before firing, but don't seem to have any slippery residues, which "should" mean that the chamber is staying free of lube, too.

Now, if the danged rifle would just SHOOT with cast boolits, I'd be a happy man. I just completed the bedding job on Miz Liz, and hope to report on IMPROVED performance next week.....

[44man]

The neck area is small compared to full length sizing and can be sized just fine with no lube. It also depends on how much sizing is needed. If the neck expands in a large chamber and takes more sizing, I would lube it. Same as the expanding plug, if the case is sized too much with a bad die and excessive force is needed to expand, it will pull the neck foreward, stretching the shoulder, so that should be lubed also. This is a primary cause of bullet runout. Minimal neck sizing and no drag on an expander will make straight loads. A plus for the Redding button dies.

[dragonrider]

"Turtle Wax "Scratch and Swirl Remover"."
I would hazard a guess that this is what is performing a lube function in your die. For only doing the neck I am sure it is quite sufficient.

[NVcurmudgeon]

There seems to be quite a bit of varation in neck sizing dies. I have Redding neck sizing dies for .30/06 and .35 Whelen. The '06 is effortless, while the .35 Whelen takes a little effort. for the .303, I use my 7.65 Argentine FL sizing die, which does not touch the body of the case at all. I screw the die down to touch the shellholder, then back it off .080" to avoid setting the shoulder back. In this case, a little effort is required.

[fourarmed]

I shoot a number of rounds where I either size in a neck die or in a FL die backed off somewhat (without case lube). Invariably, bits of brass get deposited in the die, and leave noticeable scratches on the cases. You can look into the dies and see these embedded ridges of brass in them. They are damned persistent, too. The only way I have been able to clean them out is to spin fine emery cloth on a mandrel in the die. Even then, they return almost immediately. I've yet to have more than a few cases split along these scratches, so I just pretend I don't see them. I tell myself it's just a tradeoff for not having to remove case lube. Not very satisfying though. I may try the wax in the tumbler business.

[cropcirclewalker]

I could use some opinions here.

I read in the past that if you shoot the same brass in the same piece that almost no resizing is desirable. I can full length resize and shoot maybe 3 times with my light loads then the boolit falls into the brass before my seating die will snug it up.

My Lee .303 sizing die squeezes the heck outa the neck and then the expanding button stretches the heck out of it back, but not enough so that I still have to flare (I have a tapered mandrel that I tap carefully into it) the end of the cartridge a little so that I can start the boolit (sized at .315) without shaving.

I am poor.

Should I try lapping my sizing die out so that the sized neck will still hold the boolit for seating?

Should I try to find a cheap 8mm expander button that will fit in my Lee die (That would still be working my brass more than I like)?

Do they make a die other than custom that will work for these "generously sized" chambers?

Any suggestions?

[drinks]

CCW;
An obvious solution to the expanding problem is the Lee universal case expander die, easily adjusted and does each case exactly the same amount, just works the very end of the case.
The ultimate would be having the Lee collet die set and the factory crimp die, too.
About the least amount of brass working as possible.

[44man]

The Lee will do a nice job.

[sundog]

Just get a Lee neck die set. I just started using one and like it very swell. Even though I have an array of Redding neck sizers that have been used for years, I am giving over to the Lee's collet neck sizers. Very good invention, indeed. sundog

added: when I said that I just started using one, I was referring to the .303. I've been using the Lee collets for quite awhile but just very recently got one in .303. If I premember correctly it comes in a set only, but still worth the money.

[EDG]

Just degrease the cases with 90% isopropyl alcohol. I have used it about 20 years to get the lube for the neck expander out of the inside of the neck of all loads not just the 303. Use sensible safety precautions to avoid setting yourself on fire.
A lot of the stretch of 303 brass comes from the radial clearance. The case measures .450 ahead of the rim with most brass and the 303 chambers I have measured were about .460. I found that cases formed from older Remington 30-40 Krag brass measured .455 and lasted longer. The last Krag brass measured .450 also so I guess that option is a goner.
Bench rest shooters have been neck sizing in hand dies without lube for decades.

[Johnch]

I use a Hornady 30 cal neck sizing die for my 303
I then expand the neck to acept a cast bullet with a Lee expanding die .
I only size 2/3 of the neck

Looks kind of funny but it works

Johnch

[rvpilot76]

Just get a Lee neck die set. I just started using one and like it very swell. Even though I have an array of Redding neck sizers that have been used for years, I am giving over to the Lee's collet neck sizers. Very good invention, indeed. sundog

added: when I said that I just started using one, I was referring to the .303. I've been using the Lee collets for quite awhile but just very recently got one in .303. If I premember correctly it comes in a set only, but still worth the money.

+1 on the Lee collet neck sizer. I am having a new mandrel cut to allow seating of the Fatter 30's with about .001" neck tension. I also use a factory crimp die. Very good combination. Best of luck in your choice; there are a lot of them.

Kevin

[MikeSSS]

I use Imperial die wax on all of the case body, including shoulder and neck. Then I apply some Imperial wax inside the neck with a Q-tip. After sizing I use a Q-tip inside the neck to remove most of the die wax. This is for conventional full length dies that are adjusted to size about 2/3 of the neck and not touch the body of the case. Then I touch the inside and mabey outside of the neck with a Lee deburring tool to bevel the mouth. Then I use a Lee Universal Case Expander to bell the mouth an amount too small to see, about 1/8 turn on the die stem.

For collet dies I size dry and then smear the outside of the case, including shoulder and neck with Imperial wax.

The Imperial wax, just enough so you can feel it, is left on during shooting.

Collet dies and a smear of Imperial wax prevents case lengthing of .223 and .308 cases. I don't want the cases to grip the chamber wall.

Tapered cases might be different, the brass might flow forward. Or maybe not. It will make an interesting study.

For the 6PPC and 6BR the cases are neck turned for the tight neck chambers and then sized in Wilson hand dies, these don't use an expander ball. I use a smear of Imperial on the outside of the loaded rounds to prevent the brass from gripping the chamber wall.

Here is a group shot with a beat up No4 MK1 .303 at a hundred yards. The bullets were jacketed bulk bullets for the AK or SKS, .311 123 gr SP flat base over 40 gr Varget. This is with cases lubed on the outside with Imperial wax. The rifle slipped on the bags just as one shot went. The five were loaded in the magazine and fired as fast as I could get a sight picture.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l57/MikeSSS_01/DSC01281.jpg

I haven't shot the .303 in about 10 years and will be watching for case stretch. This is a 1946 Faz and it has a pretty tight chamber as .303's go.

[MikeSSS]

Oops, guess I should have said, just began shooting the .303 again after about 10 years of letting it rest.

[454PB]

I could use some opinions here.

I read in the past that if you shoot the same brass in the same piece that almost no resizing is desirable. I can full length resize and shoot maybe 3 times with my light loads then the boolit falls into the brass before my seating die will snug it up.

My Lee .303 sizing die squeezes the heck outa the neck and then the expanding button stretches the heck out of it back, but not enough so that I still have to flare (I have a tapered mandrel that I tap carefully into it) the end of the cartridge a little so that I can start the boolit (sized at .315) without shaving.

I am poor.

Should I try lapping my sizing die out so that the sized neck will still hold the boolit for seating?

Should I try to find a cheap 8mm expander button that will fit in my Lee die (That would still be working my brass more than I like)?

Do they make a die other than custom that will work for these "generously sized" chambers?

Any suggestions?

When I bought my first .338 Magnum, I found that the expander button in the F.L. resizing die was oversized. The jacketed bullets of the rounds in the magazine were actually moving during recoil, seating themselves more deeply. I removed the expander rod from the die, chucked it in a lathe, and polished it down .001" with emery and crocus cloth. The same thing could be done by simply chucking the rod in an electric drill.

[4060MAY]

Sundog
if you have a LEE Collet die in 30-06
use the decapping/inside sizer pin from it in the .303 collet die
for 7.5 swiss, leaves a bell mouth because the 7.5 is longer than
the .303.
I think the pin mikes .302 IIRC
We don't need no stinking lube

[KCSO]

I use the Lee collet dies with great sucess. They require no lube and the brass is not sized at all in the body. Most of my 303 brass is cut down 30-40, so I just don't have the brass problems I use to have.

[JDL]

Another great thing about the Lee collet dies is, the collet can be ground down so the case mouth isn't sized, leaving it belled ready for the boolit. -JDL

[9.3X62AL]

Some recent playing around with the 303 British and the NuJudge Way Fat 30 has enabled some progress toward dimensional integrity with this rifle, a 1918 BSA. Earlier input from Bruce B--a .316" sizer die and .314" M-die spud from Buckshot--and the boolits from NuJudge's design have combined to produce a very close relationship between boolit and throat, and between chamber neck and cartridge neck. A board collaboration that I hope this pays off downrange.

To say that my rifle's chamber is "radially generous" understates the matter to the point of sarcasm. Sort of a bolt action Glock, you might say. Neck sizing has been the route to extending case life, in this instance done with a 7.62 x 54R sizer die adjusted to stop above the neck/shoulder junction. Neck sizing is not supposed to require case lube--but I moisten thumb and forefinger with case lube and roll the case neck between them before running the case into the die. I have 12 firings on my current lot of cases, no signs of trouble so far.

[KCSO]

I picked up a cute accessory for my #4, a stick with a ctg shape wiper built into the end. Suposedly for target shooters to clean the chamber during the match.

[versifier]

Since there is such a wide variation in chamber sizes in the milsurps chambered for the .303B, I think the best way to approach loading for them is the same way you would for any wildcat. FL sizing kills the brass, and unless you wanted to go to the expense of having a custom FL die made to the specs of the chamber, use of them is best avoided and one must keep the brass for each rifle separateand rely on neck sizing, however you can accomplish it.

One of the reasons why the .303 bolt rifles have such a good reputation for battlefield reliability is their overly generous chambers will feed just about anything put through them. I like the "bolt action Glock", Al! But, like the Glock, the ammunition was never meant to be reused, the rifles never meant to be fired with reloads, and so were not designed to be reload friendly - they just had to work - and work every time - with issued ammo. And on top of everything else, the case is rimmed. That the rifles feed anything at all I consider a minor miracle and certainly a triumph of engineering.

WWI accounts of Springfields with their better accuracy and tighter chambers in the mud of the trenches were sobering. Much, much worse for jamming up than the early M16's in Viet Nam. But the old .303's were, in comparison, relatively trouble free. The Brittish and Germans (who had the time to think and prepare) both used basically the same rifles in WWII, but we had to upgrade to something that would be more reliable in nasty conditions. I'm not dissing Springfields, just trying to illustrate that what makes the old .303's such a PITA now for handloaders are arguably one of the reasons why you aren't reading this in German.

[9.3X62AL]

All true, Versifier.