boolit selection for k-31

[mike in co]

ok...my latest k-31 is 0.296 x 0.307.........
with the short throats of the k-31 and the narrow dia....what to i select and what do i size to ?? 309 ok or all the way down to 308???

thanks
mike

[C1PNR]

Good question!

Do you have any Lyman U moulds? It might be a place to start.

[versifier]

.309 should be fine, but it wouldn't hurt to try a few at .308 and compare groups. It's really up to the rifle - it may prefer .310, or it might like them all and not be picky. Nobody but your rifle itself can answer that question.

[BudRow]

What is the significance of the "U" mould? Sorry for my ignorance.

[Ricochet]

I'll tell you why I've recently bought a .308" sizer: My K-31 has a throat that goes directly from a loose fit around the case neck (just large enough to fit a .311" boolit in) to .308", about 1/16" in front of the case mouth. It's a square shoulder, no taper. Anything above .308" gets shaved. The rifling origin's just a little farther into that .308" section. If the boolit is any bigger than .308", it has to stop against the chamber shoulder, not the origin of the lands.

Yours may differ.

[Ricochet]

And "U" is Lyman's designation for a mould that casts bullets undersized for the nominal diameter of the mould design.

[mag_01]

------- For the K-31 I use a 200gr. boolit sized .309--gas checked and I see no problem with fit ---leading----loading----Sure is a great shooting rifle----Mag

[texas tenring]

The K-31 has a very short and tight throat! I think we need a group buy that fits the Swiss rifle.

My K-31 slugs .306 I have'nt done a chamber cast but I know enough from loading those full length gas check projectiles that the throat is short and tight.

If we were talking something else, I would be in Heaven. (Forget that!)

I'm really disapointed!!! Since I started casting my own boolits I found out that size dose really matter!!!!!!!!!

[JerryW]

I've had good shooting out of a Saeco 315 in my K31. JerryW

[B747]

The two boolits that have worked very well for me in the K-31 's are the RCBS 165-SIL and the Lyman 311672 (about 162 gn with the GC).

I have sized them at .309, .310, and .311 and found some accuracy fall off at .311.
I now size at .310.

Great accuracy from loads down in the 1300 fps range (10.0 gn Unique) up to 1700 to 1800 fps with powders in the AA5744 burn rate.

The long 200gn boolits will also work, but you will have to either taper size the nose diam down to fit into the bore or seat well below the neck/shoulder.

Wally

[Bob S]

For my K31's I use the Lee C312-155-2R (the 7.62 x 39 bullet from Lee), or the Lyman 311672. Sizing depends on the rifle. I have one rifle, 1962 overhaul date with a .3092" groove diameter. I size the Lee bullet to .310 for this one, but with most others, .309. With 16 grains of 2400, it regularly wins or places in "as-issued" matches. The five shot groups fired from prone with the issue sights are pretty consistent at 1-1/2-1-3/4" at 100 yards; if I put the clamp-on scope on it, under 1-1/2".

I have one rifle that has about 5000 rounds of jacketed ammo through it (NRA High Power XC) so it has a "throat" of sorts. Groove diameter is .307+, and it will take a Lyman 311299 sized to .309 with the GC at the base of the neck. I do strive to keep the GC in the neck as grouping in my experience is more reliable that way.

Speaking of K31's, I got some new "ballast" for my hat, a 2" K31, from Frank Binendijk :D :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Hatballast.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

bob do you shoot with the east coast navy shooting team...seems i know someone out there...from the old shooters.com.....steve....i think

[Bob S]

Mike:

I was a shooter, coach and sometimes team captain/OIC of The Navy Rifle Team from 1986 to 1993, when I retired. When I retired, I really pulled the plug and have not really kept up with who's who. I still get the message anouncements for the LantFLT/ PacFLT and All-Navy matches, and some times I get the match bulletins, too, but I don't recognize most of the names. Some of those guys/gals were probably still in diapers when I was with the team. If you're talking about an "old timer", we may be acquainted. :-)

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Ricochet]

That little K-31 pin is too cool! :mrgreen:

[bravokilo]

Barrel dimensions:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=288&highlight=K31

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1430&highlight=K31

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1643&highlight=K31




Bullets:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1060&highlight=K31

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=2782&highlight=K31

A little bit of checking would have shown that your barrel dimensions are pretty much standard for a K 31. I did not include all of the links I found on recommended bullets as some seemed to repeat the same information. Of course I didn't even check any Swiss rifle forums, they probably wouldn't have any worthwhile info anyway, right?

http://pub18.ezboard.com/btheswissriflesdotcommessageboard

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=37

Any more legwork that you need done?

BK

[mike in co]

bk, a supporter of joe, has assigned himself the job of 'HELPING" me with this task.

similar to joe, he cannot digest what he reads.

his first reference...the poster has no size listed for his bore, so useless, and only has one mold...so no reccomendation,the later poster does list a bore size, but does not reccomend a bullet.

i will not go look at the rest

i do not need this kind of 'HELP"

thanks
mike

[bravokilo]

for expecting you to read past the first post.

Barrel:

Link 1

My K31 sized out at .295 x .307, so I'll start at .309 diameter. Starting at .311, without knowing your bore diameter, seems just a little on the large size. Especially considering that the K31's seem to come in a little on the smaller side.

However you go, I'll be very interested in your results.

Link 2

ok right off the bat....i shot sierra 174 311's. i slugged the muzzle and my k31 is 310 x 302. this was a major disappointment, but it was a cheap gun from big 5. this was the same load i use in my 91/30 with hornady 174 hpbt. just a few to put the scope on paper. i used weaver rings which gave a nice rezero. spent some time centering the mount mostly up and down with a minor left right adjustment. put the scope on, fired a round....adjusted the mount a bit left to right...and then again. put a target at 100yds, fired a two rounds getting a better zero...then put three rounds in the x ring( an sr-21 target.....less than an inch.

best i can tell the mount did not move and these were some stout loads...flat primers....

Link 3

FWIW, I have one that slugged .295 x .307. Should be a good candidate for the moulds that throw a little undersize.
__________________

The grooves on my 1942 vintage K31 run just over .306"

Have slugged 3 different K31's. .306+ on 2 of them and 307 on the other one.

My K-31s slugged .306, .307 and .307.

jh45gun, just for the heck of it I slugged my K31 .295x307. The metal is really nice and so's the bore but the stock looks like someone rode it hard and put it away wet.
Going to get another when I get the bucks. Frank


Bullets:

Link 1

Harder to find a cast load that doesn't shoot well then a good one in my three K 31's. Favorite boolits are Seaco #315 & Lee 155gr sized .309. Lots of powders work, but being as fugal as I am my favorite load at this point in time is the #315 in front of 19gr WC 820. My 820 is AA 9 burn rate. On the days my eyes are working right that load will shoot 1 1/2 inch groups on a calm day at 100yds off a bench with issue sights set on the lowest setting. Those K 31's get shot more often then any of my other rifles. I just can't tell you how addictive they are. Have fun.

Pb head

I've used Saeco 254 -- a 115 grain bevel based plinker -- with 15 grains of WC820 (aa9) for a good 50 yard load. Sized to 309. Shoots to the right but very fun and cheap.

1Mau., The 19gr. WC 820 + Saeco #315 recipe is right on the money! All you have to do is to remove all Cu fouling from the bbl., size your CB's (more to follow) to .309", FL size your brass and you're in business. Btw, 21-22gr. AA 5744 or H/IMR 4198 will also work very well. As for CB designs, the K-31's seem to shoot most of them (Ly. #s 311291, 311041, 311466; Lee C-309-180R, Lee 113gr. "wadcutter," etc.) exceptionally well, but you'll have to seat them deeply into the case, given the abrupt throats on the carbines. Btw, if you have a Lyman pistol powder measure, rotor #11 will give you ~19gr. WC 820. Slow-burning milsurp powders will also work, but you'll use substantially more of them (and mag. primers as well): 47-48gr. IMR 5010 + .7cc Grex; 47-48gr. WC 860, NO filler.

Link 2

If memory serves, some who shoot the K-31 have posted good results with the Lee C312-155-2R and the RCBS 308-165-SIL. The Lee boolit is a single cavity in standard form; unless you can find one of the 6 cavity group buy examples that Leftoverdj recently honcho'd for a custom run.

I have had good luck with most of the Lee 30 cal bullets in this gun. The noses on most are undersized anyway and this works well with the K31's tighter bore. I use the Lee soupcan with 4.5 of Red Dot for plinking. The Lyman 31141 seated so the front band just engraves is a good load also.

Wayne, What KCSO and S. Wheeler said! The K-31's short throat doesn't preclude the use of CB's at all. As KCSO mentioned, many of the bore riding designs, e.g., the Lee C309-180R, Ly. #311291, Ly. #311284, do have noses that are small for .30cal. (.308") but not 7.5mm (.307"). Also, seating CB's below the [case] neck-shoulder junction doesn't detract from accuracy in the least. Further, you'll be happy to know that K-31's shoot many different CB weights and designs very well: They handle the 113gr. Lee "soupcan" and the 200gr. Lee that S. Wheeler used shot very well. Indeed, I've had better results in my K-31 with the Lee C309-180R and Ly. #311291 than in my .30-06. Even the .30HBC shoots OK in the K-31.


For a mould , I like the RCBS 308-165-SIL, sized .310.




Like I already said, if you had looked at the barrel links you would have found that your dimensions are pretty much standard. I found only one that varied to any great degree. I wonder who has that one?

If you HAD looked at the bullet links you have found pretty much the same recommendations that you have found here. I think it would be pretty safe to expect most the recommendations would work in the AVERAGE K 31. I personally vote for the RCBS 308-165-SIL. It works well in ALL of my K 31's.

BK

[mike in co]

for expecting you to read past the first post.


ok right off the bat....i shot sierra 174 311's. i slugged the muzzle and my k31 is 310 x 302. this was a major disappointment, but it was a cheap gun from big 5. this was the same load i use in my 91/30 with hornady 174 hpbt. just a few to put the scope on paper. i used weaver rings which gave a nice rezero. spent some time centering the mount mostly up and down with a minor left right adjustment. put the scope on, fired a round....adjusted the mount a bit left to right...and then again. put a target at 100yds, fired a two rounds getting a better zero...then put three rounds in the x ring( an sr-21 target.....less than an inch.

best i can tell the mount did not move and these were some stout loads...flat primers....

Like I already said, if you had looked at the barrel links you would have found that your dimensions are pretty much standard. I found only one that varied to any great degree. I wonder who has that one?

If you HAD looked at the bullet links you have found pretty much the same recommendations that you have found here. I think it would be pretty safe to expect most the recommendations would work in the AVERAGE K 31. I personally vote for the RCBS 308-165-SIL. I works well in ALL of K 31's.

BK

gee i dont know...but maybe you could tell me what this link has to do with small bore and cast boolits.....

THATS TWO DOWN......

stop..i do not need your version of 'HELP"

mike

[bravokilo]

I included that one to show that was larger than the norm(1out of 11 examples). From that we can infer that most of the reports on bullets that don't list their barrel dimensions have barrels that fall within the average, ergo they would be valid suggestions for your barrel. Or you could look at the threads and see if you could match up posters who listed their barrel specs in the first links and see if they also gave recommendations in the bullet links. Of course you would actually have to READ the complete links first. Anything else?

Somebody help me out here. Is this really that hard to follow?

BK

[mike in co]

only for you....
i asked specific questions looking for specific answers....
silly me
see i did a seasrch and did not find WHAT I WAS ASKING FOR......

so i started a thread...thats how it works here....

i try not to make ASSumtions........instead i ask very pointed questions.

no its not hard at all.....


not about the NORM, nor INFERED

HARD DATA ABOUT SPECIFICS IN MY ORIGINAL POST......

your version of HELP is not needed

mike in co
by the way...the rifle you brought up won a 200yd match with that larger than norm bore.....

[waksupi]

I'm starting to believe in re-incarnation. And exorcism.

[bravokilo]

I suggested to Mike in a PM that he could have answered his question by doing a search. His repy was

"i did do a search for cast boolits for my small bore k31, i did not fine specific data on small bore , so i asked. "

Sooo, I decided to run a search and see what I could find. I discovered what I already knew ie: The barrel dimensions of K 31's tend to be on the small end for a "normal" .30 cal ( .300x.308 ). I posted the information to show that the barrel the specs for his second K 31 are closer to the average. That would lead me to believe that most of the already mentioned boolit choices should work. My search was by no means comprehsive and I am sure a search of the other forums that I provided would yield a lot more information on the subject.

BK

[bravokilo]

I'm starting to believe in re-incarnation. And exorcism.

Alright, alright, I think I have made my point The information is out there-if you are willing to look for it.

I'm outta here.

BK

[mike in co]

Alright, alright, I think I have made my point The information is out there-if you are willing to look for it.

I'm outta here.

BK


didn't take him long to leave.....heck he even believes he proved something other than his inability to read the english language and do research.
i asked questions on the military cast bullet loads board...specific questions on sizing and boolit selection.......he produces a miss mash of data....little of which is relevent to my question. he "proved" his point by ASSuming,infering, and averaging....ohhh and using "what I(he) already knew " .......if i (me) knew...i won't have been asking......duh......

so why did all this occur ???

bk has decided since i questioned some of what joe b has done, that bk should show the world what a poor person i am.
he could not prove joe's point, could not prove his own point, could not /did not prove statements in his pm's, so his alternate was to attempt to embarrass me in public............
a great waste of band width and still proved nothing...
excorcism yes reincarnation...please no

mike in co

[4060MAY]

Mike
hopefully to answer your question, my K-31 is tight .307x.296, I couldn't get anything I had to shoot. I had Mountain molds make me a copy of the Saeco 301, casting at .295x.308, I put the gas check on at .308. then I tried another bullet that never worked for mein any other gun, the Lyman 308329, sized at .309 but works really well in this rifle. I use a modified lee collet die for loading.

I also made a sizing die to size the nose on a Saeco 301, to .295 and the base to .308 what a PIA thats when I sent one of the bullets to Dan and he made the mold.

The lyman with 41grs of 4350(pulldown) will group 1-1.5" OH at 50 yds.

I could post a picture if it would help

hope this helps

[chuebner]

Mike,

Maybe this will help. I have 2 K-31's that both slug at .297 x .307. I also have three Lee RN molds in 160, 180 and 200gr that all cast a bullet that measure .298 on the nose and .310 on the bands. Sized to .309 and lubed with Lee LA, these shoot most excellent in my rifles.

Suggested loads.

10-12gr Unique
14-16gr AL2400
18-20gr RL7
18-20gr SR4759
18-20gr AA5744

At 50yd. these will shoot 1"-1 1/2" groups with issue sights. Occasionally I can put all shots within the 10-ring on a SR-1 target at 100yd.

Hope this helps.

Charlie

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Charlie,

Could you give a little more detail on the Lee molds? Specifically, the Lee numbers for them? I'm interested as well, since I have a K31.

Mike,

Ignore the hecklers. Anyone with a brain realizes forums are for communication and you have every right to ask a question. As they used to say in the Army: "There's no dumb questions, only questions you don't know the answer to."

So ask, get answers and ignore the noise from the cheap seats. For my part, I'm learning from your post and probably riding on it. I appreciate the fact you've asked a question.

Regards,

Dave

[mike in co]

ok..i'm not a fan of having bullet bases below the neck...no gas checks below the neck.
i tried a 311359 which is about 135 gr sized 308 and the 308 hit the throat and drove the boolit into the case and sized the first band a bit.

i'll have to look at the 311291...and 284...but i aint holding my breath...
i think i'll go post a what if in the gb forum....

[45 2.1]

The RCBS 308-165-SIL fits this cartridge well, especially the 1911s. The K31s have an ugly throat in them with excessive neck length in front of the cartridge neck. Little can be done in that regard to give super match accuracy, but they will give M.O.A. when loaded properly.

[Bob S]

IME, 311284 and 311291 (including one Ideal U311291) won't work in the "usual" K31. They must be *very* deep-seated to chamber. That U311291 shoots like a house afire in the 1911-types, though. The pic is ten rounds prone with sling in a 96/11 long rifle, at 100 yards. Charge is 16 grains 2400.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/Swiss_9611_MSA_Forum_MatchR.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Dang Bob,

Nice target. And I wasn't going to buy one of those 1911's. Oh well. Maybe I'll just have to change my mind.

Dave

[Bob S]

Dave:

I highly recommend them, especially if you are going to shoot cast bullets. They have real throats, and if you have any .30 cal bore riders that are undersized on the forepart for American .30 cals, they will probably work great in the Swiss 1911-type long rifles. They don't take much tinkering (with the rifle or the load) to get shooting some outstanding groups and scores.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

311410......yep 133 gr plain base.....
oal on my gun is 2.710 with top band touch that thing they call a throat !


while similar to 311359...less pointy....

oal .830
sized .309
base of point is .306 !!!!!!

guess i gotta try some 2400/4227/reddot

[jballs918]

well after reading this very sprited post, i also have a k-31 that the bore is 307. that sees to be pretty common. so i will keep looking here every now and then to see what they come up with thanks guys for doing the leg work

[Ricochet]

The K31s have an ugly throat in them with excessive neck length in front of the cartridge neck. Huh? Exactly what do you mean by that?

Mine has about 1/16" of extra neck-sized chamber in front of the case mouth. Then it abruptly goes to .308". No taper whatsoever, it's a square shoulder. .308" jacketed bullets can go another 1/8" or so into that throat before the lands stop them. Anything over .308" stops against the shoulder before reaching the rifling, and gets shaved down to .308" when it starts moving.

[45 2.1]

Huh? Exactly what do you mean by that?

Mine has about 1/16" of extra neck-sized chamber in front of the case mouth. Then it abruptly goes to .308". No taper whatsoever, it's a square shoulder. .308" jacketed bullets can go another 1/8" or so into that throat before the lands stop them. Anything over .308" stops against the shoulder before reaching the rifling, and gets shaved down to .308" when it starts moving.

You just described exactly what I said. What would you call it? Its certainly not pretty is it. I rate that as ugly myself, it has just about everything needed to rack up a boolit.

[Ricochet]

Yeah, it's a lousy throat design for a boolit. I just wasn't sure what you meant by the too-long neck, it being a very short throated barrel.

Works great with .308" jacketed bullets. But they have to be seated very short.

[chuebner]

Dave

C309-160R, C309-180R and C309-200R are the mold designations. I cast these out of wheelweights with a little tin added and cast hot so the bullets are frosty looking. Tumble lube with Lee Liquid Alox, add gascheck and size to .309 with Lee push through sizing die. All three of these molds cast .298 on the nose and .3105 on the bands. The throat on my 1953 K31 is the tightest and I have to seat bullets for this rifle quite deep but accuracy is great. My 1946 K31 can take a bullet seated .125 farther out then the '53. I also use Lee dies, a Lee press and Lee 20lb. dipper pot. I'm kinda sold on their products if you didn't notice.

Charlie

[chuebner]

ok..i'm not a fan of having bullet bases below the neck...no gas checks below the neck.
i tried a 311359 which is about 135 gr sized 308 and the 308 hit the throat and drove the boolit into the case and sized the first band a bit.

i'll have to look at the 311291...and 284...but i aint holding my breath...
i think i'll go post a what if in the gb forum....

Mike,

I have heard reference to this before but do not understand the reasoning of not wanting the bullet base below the neck. Both of my K31's require bullets seated very deep in order to chamber properly but they are also very accurate.

I have the 311291 in both SC and DC and the 311284 in SC. These cast too large on the nose to work well in the K31 but shoot great in my 03A3.

Charlie

[trooperdan]

Mike,

I have heard reference to this before but do not understand the reasoning of not wanting the bullet base below the neck. Both of my K31's require bullets seated very deep in order to chamber properly but they are also very accurate.

I have the 311291 in both SC and DC and the 311284 in SC. These cast too large on the nose to work well in the K31 but shoot great in my 03A3.

Charlie

Charlie, there are a couple of reasons for folks wanting to keep the base in the neck, the main one being to avoid lube contamination of the powder! I've never experienced the other reason but have often heard it mentioned; some claim the gas check might come off before firing! Certainly the Hornady or Gator checks won't have that probelm. If it ever existed at all it might have been with the old style Lyman checks

[mike in co]

Mike,

I have heard reference to this before but do not understand the reasoning of not wanting the bullet base below the neck. Both of my K31's require bullets seated very deep in order to chamber properly but they are also very accurate.

I have the 311291 in both SC and DC and the 311284 in SC. These cast too large on the nose to work well in the K31 but shoot great in my 03A3.

Charlie

1st......cause i said so.......lol....personal choice does count.

2nd.....you would have to see the nice round mark they leave in my chrono screens/sensors......yep my sensor housings are broken and pock marked from flying gas checks......culpret was some of those custom heavy 8mm boolits. if i can preclude it from possible occurence...i'm gonna. dispite all the talk..i got the damage to prove it. it may have been a fluke...but i'm not going there if i can help it.

[mike in co]

will someone measure the nose dia of that 312 160 lee.....

[bravokilo]

Maybe they have figured out that the "exorcism" comment wasn't meant for me. Or perhaps they have taken a close look at how you treat other members of this board when they happen to disagree with you. I can add more if you like.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1550

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=3566

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=10712

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=10865

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=11575

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=12355

BK

[mike in co]

...i took an antibiotic and it still won't go away.....

[texas tenring]

will someone measure the nose dia of that 312 160 lee.....

I just received my Lee 312-155 and cast a few the other night. The nose on that boolit cast at .309 with AC WW the front band is .312 and the driving bands are .3125.

I'm going to try this boolit in my K-31, as Ricochet said there is no throat the rifleing starts imediatly in front of the neck and it is about .308. My boolit engraves lightly but does'nt hang up in the chamber so I think it may work well, I'll give a report when I have a chance to shoot.

[mike in co]

sundog provided some rcbs 165's. at 2.780 oal they just sit in the lands. this puts the gas check a mere 0.025 below the neck, so i'll have to try this boolit. i think a better boolit would be to shorten the body of this aprox 0.08 . this would lighten the boolit from the 179 but also allow the shooter to tune the lenght to thier chamber.........more to follow.....

would someone care to send me a few of the lee 160 312 ??

thanks
mike

[brimic]

I recently received a new Lee 185-312 mould which I was hoping to use for Mosin nagants or possibly one of my tighter enfields, but its a no-go as it casts the nose at .298-299" (the bullet isn't quite round). Its even too loose for my rem 700 .308, so I'll try it in a K-31.

I have a lee 200-209 mould that I would have to seat almost the entire boolit in the case to chamber it in a K-31. I might be one of the lucky ones to receive a Lee mould that casts the nose slightly oversized at around .302"

[Bob S]

I posted this on the original Swiss Rifle Forum IRT a similar question. Some of it is reruns to some readers here, so to those I apologize for the redundancy:

The K31 can be a bit of a challenge because of the throat, or lack of it. My first efforts centered around the Lyman/Ideal 311291U. The "U" means "undersize". Since a lot of shooters thought it was beneficial to shoot bullets unsized, or sized very little, Lyman would continue to use a worn (undersized) but resharpened cherry to cut moulds and mark them "U". Usually this meant that the driving bands were closer to .309 than the .312 or so of moulds with a "new" (unworn) cherry. Unfortunately, it meant that the nose portion of the bullet would also be under sized, sometimes as small as .296. That was disastrous for most US .30 caliber rifles, but it works out well for the typical Swiss. The target below was fired with my first K31, which had by this time fired a few thousand rounds of jacketed bullet loads, so it had/has a "throat" of sorts, and I had no issues getting the old Lyman bullet to "fit". The groove diameter on this one is .307." The dispersion is 1-7/8", and as you can see it is almost all vertical. Heavier charges of slower powders, leaving less air space, may help.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/831979311291U.jpg

The most reliable bullet I have found for the K31 is the Lee C312-1552R, which was designed by Ed Harris for the 7.62 x 39. On the surface, it seemed like an unlikely choice, but just seating some in dummy cartridges to check fit showed that it could be chambered in any of my K31's without intruding into the powder space. This is typical performance:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/K31Lee155.jpg

Extreme spread is just a skosh over 1-1/2". I have since found that bullets sized to .310 in this rifle with 16 grains of 2400 shoots just a little better, and it continues to shoot like this, day in and day out. Believe it or not, the groove diameter of this rifle is .3092".

This a 100 yard "Garand Match" target fired with this rifle and load. There are 34 shots in this target, 4 sighters (marked), ten shots standing slow fire (10 minutes) ten shots prone rapid fire (70 seconds); and ten shots prone slow fire (ten minutes).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31GarandCourseA.jpg

The 1911 series rifles are much more forgiving with cast bullets because they have a real throat and will accept a wider variety of bullets, including a bunch of those old Ideal/Lyman with undersized noses. They following target was fired with a Gew1911 using Parker Hale sights, with no load development at all, just a first "guess". I was not firing for "group" here, this was for a postal match, and I was still "hunting" for a zero. The target is the 100 yard International Small Bore Target, A33. The ten ring is the heavy one, and it is about 1" in diameter:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/470903311291U.jpg

The extreme spread is 2-7/8", and mostly vertical. How much of that vertical was me tinkering with the elevation I would have to find the data book which is buried somewhere. This load may benefit from a dacron filler.

I love the following target, because it proves the old adage that "no amount of skill will ever replace dumb luck". Ten shots fired prone, 100 yards, Gew 96/11 with the 311291, 16 grains of 2400, with a dacron filler:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/Swiss_9611_MSA_Forum_MatchR.jpg

I have not been able to repeat that one, but the rifle and load will reliably group 10 shots from the prone position into 2" or under. BTW, all of my testing is from the prone position. I do not shoot from a rest position, I don't believe in it. When I was firing itty bitty groups from a bench rest 40 years ago, and when I would go to a match and have to stand on my hind legs, or get into the sling in sitting, kneeling or prone, I found that I forgot how to shoot. I threw away that sand bags and have never regretted it. Once I did that, I started Going Places in the competitive shooting world. YMMV.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

bob thanks for the repost. i have read most of your posts. we have disagreed about stuff but that is the nature of man. would you take a look at the group buy k31 post and post your 2 cents worth....
thanks
mike

[texas tenring]

I said I would post a range report as soon as I could get to the range. Finally after a month of snow and wet roads today was a very nice day, sunshine and very little wind just a little mud to deal with.

As mentioned in a previous post I ordered a Lee C312-155-2R mold to try in my K31. I did this after reading the results Bob S was having with this boolit in his K31.

I loaded 25 rds. total, 15 with 16grs of 2400 and 5 with 17grs and another 5 with 18grs. I got on the paper and shot a couple of groups with the 16gr loads they where 1 1/2"-2" not to bad. Then I shot a five round group with the 17gr load and shot a 1" 5 shot group at 100yds from the bench, I shot the other 5 rounds with 18grs and the group opened up again. I forgot to write it down but I think the 17gr loads were averageing around 1670fps.

The load was: 17grs. 2400 powder with the 312-155 boolit sized to .309 Lee push thru die gas checked and LLA lubed, CCI 200 primer, Graf brass and FL sized.

I'll have to load more of these and get the sights adjusted as I was just shooting for groups today. I'll pobably shoot this rifle and load in my club's monthly military match this next weekend. I can't wait!