Help!!! lol Stuck ingots

[Swamprat1052]

OK, I smelted down my first wheel weights today. I used an old cast iron dutch oven and a turkey frier. Man it melted em just fine. Used an aluminum muffin pan for my ingots and only one problem now. I cant get the ingots out. I let it cool for a couple of hours and thought it was cool enough. Couldnt budge em, ran water over bottom of pan to cool more, still nothing. I did manage to get the cups of the pan to come loose, lol. Now I have ingots, but they are still in the aluminum.

Where did I go wrong?

Swamprat

[cbrick]

Swamprat, interesting. I've never used aluminum cup cake pans but the only SWAG I can come up with sounds like the aluminum was too thin and when the hot alloy filled the cup it stretched with the heat. When the alloy cooled off and shrank (lead shrinks when cooled) the aluminum just shrank with it so the ingot didn't come loose. This is just a SWAG for lack of thinking of anything else. You might try freezing them, that might shrink'em enough to get'em out.

Let us know the outcome, there are probably several folks that have had similair experiences.

Rick

[leftiye]

I don't know where you went wrong, but I'd spray the next muffin pan with Franklin arsenal mold release maybe!

[Swamprat1052]

Cbrick, thanks for the info. I am trying the freezer but so far to no avail. I am old enough to remember changing sleeves on the old truck and tractor engines, we always froze the sleeves to get em into the block. I know that guys use these pans for molds, but I thought when it cooled off the lead would contract and fall out, WRONG!!!

I guess if the freezer dont do it, I can melt it again, the pan should turn loose then and float like the clips shouldnt they. I may have to invest in some ingot molds. I was afraid that the non stick surface on the the no stick pans would melt at these temps. Maybe thats what they use?

Thanks again guys.

Swamprat

[rmb721]

Are the holes in your muffin pan tapered? They need to be. You should only need to let them cool for a few minutes before dumping them out. Just so they are solid.

[ejjuls]

You may have got your lead a little too hot and melted your aluminum a bit.
I did that off of my turkey fryer (I use it for processing mass batches of WW's into ingots). I would suggest re-melting your lead and before you pour into your aluminum pans - set them on the ground rather than a bench or such. I found they will dissipate heat quicker if you set them on the cold ground - frozen ground works the best. As soon as they are set - not peanut-buttery in consistency dump them out. Try not to run your fryer wide-open either - just enough to melt and flux as needed.

Hope that helps
Eric

[garandsrus]

Swamprat,

Are your aluminum muffin tins bright and shiny silver colored? If they are, the lead should drop right out. I usually empty mine after the lead has pretty much solidified (don't know about the middle of the muffin) but before they are cool. The only reason I dump them when I do is so that I can use the mold again! The lead should not stick to the aluminum.

The more common muffin tins now available have some type of coating on them. They are not bright and shiny, generally dull and dark. These don't work well with lead and I am guessing that these are what you have. People have had success using these after they leave them outside for a while to rust.

John

[cbrick]

rmb721 brought up a very good point that I didn't think of. Are the aluminum pan cups tapered? If not you may have to re-melt the alloy to get it out.

I have no idea what temp teflon would melt at. You could probably Google it and find out.

I use the RCBS 10 pound cast iron pots as ingot moulds. They make flat top and bottom 5 pound ingots when filled half full or 2 1/2 pound ingots when filled 1/4 full. They will make 10 pound ingots but at 10 pounds they WILL NOT fit into the RCBS 22 pound casting pot for re-melting.

http://www.lasc.us/5lbingots.jpg

Rick

[Uncle R.]

Are you absolutely certain your muffin pans are aluminum? There are a lot of steel pans on the market now with some kind of non-stick coating and they have separate "cups" crimped into them - which kinda sounds like what you describe. Bullet alloy will solder itself to the inserts very nicely - don't ask me how I know.
:roll:
Check your pans with a magnet - I'm guessing they aren't really aluminum. If they're steel you might be best off to melt the whole mess down again, skim the "cups" and pour into ingots from something else.
Good luck!
Uncle R.

[wills]

Rusty steel muffin pans work best. I had the same problem with aluminum pans, I just left the ingots in the pan till i was ready to use them, put them in the pot and let the led melt out of the cup.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=2809&highlight=leave+rain

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=31181&postcount=7

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=31186&postcount=9

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=31388&postcount=14

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=6344&highlight=rusty+muffin

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=29467&postcount=20

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=2051&highlight=rusty+muffin

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=15158&postcount=10

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1375&highlight=rusty+muffin

[Swamprat1052]

WOW!!! You guys are great. Thanks for all the tips. The pans are aluminum but I left the lead in it too long. I melted them back down and did a redo. This time I just let the lead get set as you guys said and they dumped right out. I didnt do a whole bunch at once (only about 25 lbs.) so it wasnt a big deal. I figured it would be easier to redo a smaller amt. than a whole bunch.

I still dont think I have the fluxing down just right but my ingots arent gritty feeling and are pretty clean. I did another pot full after I got the first one redone and they look a lot better. I fluxed more and let it burn longer and the liquid was a lot cleaner. I guess maybe an old dog can learn a new trick. Or is it that a blind sow finds an acorn once in a while? lol.

Thanks for all your help.

Swamprat

[Forester]

not knowing any reason not too I bought steel muffin tins with a teflon coating. I took them home and started out burning the teflon off with the pan set over the turkey frier. That worked but was a smokey mess.

I decided just to pour the ingots and not wory about any teflon that stuck to them. That seems to have worked just fine and I have no issues with sticking ingots. FWIW my muffin tins taper at a pretty shallow angle so that probably helps with release.

[Treeman]

You don't have to let steel pans rust for good release-Smoke 'em. I like an acetylene torch with the oxygen off. soot up those new steel pans and they'll drop right out.

[hornetguy]

I haven't checked it out, but I'm pretty sure teflon won't take over about 450-475 degrees... I used some teflon sleeves for bearings on a conveyor oven, and they worked ok, but our temps were only about 275-300 or so.
Most plastics won't go much over 400-500 degrees, except some of the new polymers, like Ultem... I think it's up around 650-700.

[handyrandyrc]

This is what you want!!! I had the same problem, and ended up denting/ruining the tins -- the cups ended up coming free from the main tin. They were cheap multi-piece tins... Luckily I only had poured 6 before this happened, and used some mould release...

http://www.commbloc.net/handyrandyrc/images/smelt-3.jpg

[Goatlips]

The mold release does the job as Randy said but do not do not try to "save" money and use PAM, it just don't work on lead muffins, and contains a lot of moisture - my first ingots looked like Manuel Noriega's face and smelled even worse. :neutral:

Goatlips

[Ricochet]

I tried plated steel muffin pans. Ended up with ingots soldered to the plated steel firmly, and the pan was ruined. Black oil-seasoned cast iron corn stick moulds have worked very well.

[Swamprat1052]

OK, they look like aluminum, they feel like aluminum and the tag on them said aluminum, but a magnet will stick to em. I managed to get it done but it was a mess. I am gonna go a different route. I may take the 2 pans I have left and see if they'll rust. Thanks.

Swamprat

[wills]

I seem to recall someone saying teflon gives off toxic gas if you heat it hot enough to burn it off the pan.

[Ricochet]

That's true. My wife burned up a Teflon pan in the kitchen once. We had to leave the house. I opened the doors and let it air out for a good while before we came back in. I was coughing terribly for days, with a lingering mild cough for a good while afterward. That was some nasty gas!

[Junior1942]

Beware of rusty ingot molds!!!!! The rust absorbs moisture from the air, especially here in high humidity Louisiana. When you fill a rusty muffin tin here, it spits, sputters, and splatters lead.

[swabbie]

I love the computer,the internet and gun related forums:drinks:
I was just ponderin stealin one of wifey's old muffin pans(having spent a bunch on pots,lubrisizers,and moulds.)
I'm glad I saw this thread.time to keep readin!

[carpetman]

To keep ingots from sticking dont melt the alloy. Take your pocket knife and pulverize the wheel weightts are whatever your rendering. Maybe pulverize is not right word,but anyways you whittle on em and put the shavings into the muffin pan and mix up cream of wheat maybe to make a glue to hold the shavings together. You now have an ingot that will easily slide out of any muffin tin and you wont have to be concerned what material they are made of and will be able to use any muffin pan on the planet and not be out the sky rocketing price of an ingot mold.

[mechdriver]

I seem to recall someone saying teflon gives off toxic gas if you heat it hot enough to burn it off the pan.

If you do a search for Teflon Flu you'll find that Dupont has known about this problem with teflon since before it's release. They determined that the health hazard to us consumers is not worth lowering their profit margin.

Bottom line. It would be better for us all if we avoided teflon in the kitchen as well as the smelting process.

Cook with cast iron and smelt with it too.

Mechdriver

[Typecaster]

Junior—

"High humidity Louisiana?" We never noticed high humidity when we visited #1 son when he was at Tulane...we just thought it was nature's way of saying it's time to get inside somewhere for a drink!

Even in Southern California my Lyman cast iron ingot moulds will rust and sputter. I just rest them on the outside ring (frame) of the turkey fryer to warm as the first load of WWs is melting. Problem solved.

[TAWILDCATT]

go to the hardware store and get cast iron muffin pans or corn bread pans.they much better and will drop the ingots out.I have them and cast iron bread stick pans you get variety and weight.--[smilie=1::coffee:

[nicky4968]

Teflon is a very long string of carbon atoms, with a bunch of fluorine atoms stuck on. I don't know exactly what comes off this stuff when you overheat it, but it can't be good.

F F F F F
! ! ! ! !
F- C-C-C-C-C-F
! ! ! ! !
F F F F F

Something like this, only a lot longer. Best I can do on keyboard.

[Edward429451]

Just don't leave them in the pan so long. Barely solid is fine and dump em over. I've never had a problem doing this.

Whatever you do...don't ever let a boolit cool completely in a mould. They are the devil to get out. Ask me how I know...

[dale clawson]

I always leave the last boolit in the mold when I'm done casting. I figure it protects the mold.I smoke the mold cavities and don't have too bad a problem getting the cold boolit out. Dale

[Cherokee]

Why not just buy some of the Lyman/RCBS/Lee ingot molds like I did 30+ years ago. They work real good.

[clintsfolly]

have you priced then lately? clint

[hansenvilla]

If you spray your muffin tins with either Midway's Mold release or Molybdenum disulfide the ersatz ingots will just fall out when you tip 'em over. It is not recommended to sneak the pan back into the kitchen cupboard after so using it.

[bishopgrandpa]

It does cost but if you do a search for Griswold on ebay you'll find cast iron trays that are great for ingots and you will never worry about stuck or bent trays. They will last a lifetime. Worth the money if you wait for the right deal.

[wheezengeezer]

To keep ingots from sticking dont melt the alloy. Take your pocket knife and pulverize the wheel weightts are whatever your rendering. Maybe pulverize is not right word,but anyways you whittle on em and put the shavings into the muffin pan and mix up cream of wheat maybe to make a glue to hold the shavings together. You now have an ingot that will easily slide out of any muffin tin and you wont have to be concerned what material they are made of and will be able to use any muffin pan on the planet and not be out the sky rocketing price of an ingot mold.

you have a heckuva lot more free time than i have! sure wouldnt want to put one of these in a pot of molten lead.

[Typecaster]

wheezengeezer—
Too much free time is what brings us to this hobby....

[gon2shoot]

I just rub mine with a stick of parrafin while they're warm, and they're good to go the next time.

[Andy_P]

I use steel teflon coated muffin and min-load pans, and the ingots drop out like nobody's business.

"Teflon Flu"? Is that the latest myth to feed the worry warts? I smelt outdoors, and the highest temp to which the pans are ever heated is about 600F and only briefly - not too far above Baking muffins in the oven temp. We're not talking taking a torch to them and snorting the fumes.

[C1PNR]

Do I remember an old thread, I think started by BruceB, wherein he described making ingot moulds from angle iron.

Maybe 1 1/2" or 2" on a side and cut to length so the ingots are an inch or 2 shorter than the inside of an ammo can. The triangular ingots nest very well, and being just shorter than the storage container allows your finger to reach in at the end and pull 1 or 2 ingots out.

Ends welded on, on the outside so nothing for the ingots to "grip" when cooled.

[jackley]

I seem to recall someone saying teflon gives off toxic gas if you heat it hot enough to burn it off the pan.

Anything over 475 and teflon is nasty.

[Angus]

I did the same thing with my first ingots. The muffin pan isn't aluminum, it is TIN coated steel... The lead alloyed with the tin, making it impossible to get them out. I had to pop out each cub and peel the steel off the ingots. Now my ingot mold is a pile of driveway sand that I stick a 2x4 into to make rectangular impressions to sandcast in. No stick, it's beautiful.

[encoreman]

I can't believe you guys!! Not one has suggested making your own. I took some 11/2" angle iron about 6" long 6 is what I used. Welded a piece of flat bar to each end, note: I put the angle iron like this.vvvvvv This serves pretty good for a homemade ingot mold, I made 2 and put a 12" piece of 1/2" pipe for a handle. Each ingot weighs about 1 pound. Mac

[carpetman]

yea you have magnetic aluminum--rare stuff. Whatever you do get the muffin pans to work---ingot molds are way to costly.

[725]

I just made an angle alluminum ingot mould. Welded each end of a section of angle with a short section of angle. Gave it legs, if you will, on the end so it sits up off the table by a 1/4 inch or so. Stable. Pours a nice triangle rod of material. Cools fast. ........and best of all, it suits my budget!!

[Scrounger]

Congratulations, you just re-invented the wheel. Guys been doing that here since forever.

[carpetman]

Andy P---Yes teflon flu---you have to use your casting thermometer as your temperature will be too high for a regular thermometer. Doesn't matter if oral or anal thermometer---wont work on teflon flu. Know the difference in anal and oral thermometers---taste.

[swabbie]

actually,I thought that the sand casting idea showed remarkable outside the box cranial interaction:drinks:

[Razor]

Know the difference in anal and oral thermometers---taste.:veryconfu

LMAO

Razor
:castmine:

[Rustyleee]

I'm with Ricochet. I've been using the same cast iron corn stick moulds for 25 years.

[Dragoon]

I'm as frugal as the next guy but I get a great deal of satisfaction from seeing my ingots cast in nice uniform shapes and neatly stacked up.

I bought four Saeco ingot moulds and they are worth every penny.

I do have a cornbread pan that makes 8 wedges that I use for straight ww metal. The cavities don't really have enough draft and anything other that ww metal sticks to bad.

When I alloy a batch with tin I pour them in the Saeco moulds.

I saw a pan like this the other day at a flea market and thought it would work better than the typical corn stick pan. This one I saw they wanted $40 for.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Griswold-no-21-corn-bread-pan-Erie-Pa-961-USA-rare_W0QQitemZ200219779309QQihZ010QQcategoryZ976QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosti ng

[TAWILDCATT]

dragoon:I just sent message to first poster then I saw the date.I have a Griswald
and I payed couple bucks.Hardwear stores have muffin pans and corn stick pans in cast iron for about $6.00.
There should be a sticky for this subject.I must have read 25 posts on many sites.
I dont know about LODGE. they seem to be higher than the hardwear stores selling their products.:-P

[miestro_jerry]

I use the Lee ingot molds, they were on sale and I bought 4, I already have a Lyman and a couple of RCBS one. They work for me. Corn bread molds, well the price would have to be right before I would invest in those.

I have a Lodge dutch oven and the cast iron ladle, both are well worth the price.

Jerry

[seabreeze133]

I found the best mold is a cast iron device that is used to make corn bread sticks, or something made of cast iron. U can often pick them up at thrift stores for a couple of bucks. A variety of shapes can help if u cast more than one alloy. Corn bread sticks for WW; cast iron muffin mold for lead and so on. Might take a while to gather everything u need, but if u have a spouse that frequents the thrift stores, it would give her a goal.

:o)

Don

[carpetman]

Lets see we have the cost of PAM which would be ongoing. We have the cost of driving all over town to thrift stores and really dont know if the muffin pans we find will work or not---aluminum?Teflon? right taper? rusted? Non rusted? And then will they be the right size will the ingots go in the pot??? Certainly dont spend $15 for a cast iron ingot mold that we know will work. Just not creative and certainly shows some type of a warped mind to do something that foolish.

[spurrit]

Oh, yeah? I hit garage sales like crazy for a while, to pick up cast iron for swinging targets for my cowboy loads. Fist shot, light load, cast .45 Colt load shot a hole in a skillet.

[smilie=1: Dad and I got a laugh out of it. When he died, it was still sitting in his kitchen. I gave him his first handgun, a cheapo .22, then followed it with a .357 Blackhawk, and I handmade his gunbelt. Marvin Leroy Morgan was a pretty good grandad. He took me in to raise, let me call him "Dad", taught me quite a bit, and was the best friend I ever had.

I still have both of those guns, his saddle, and his horses, who have a home until they die.

[alamogunr]

If you have to buy new, Cabela's has Lodge cast iron pans on sale right now. I got mine on sale several years ago when we passed through Nebraska on our way to Yellowstone. Regardless, they are cheaper than RCBS, Lyman, or SAECO ingot molds. I got the regular round muffin pans. They have little fish, cactus, corn cob, etc.

[yodar]

I don't know where you went wrong, but I'd spray the next muffin pan with Franklin arsenal mold release maybe!

some tins are steel but I got fed up and bought a pair of cast Iron muffin pan and two iron cornbread stick molds and no sticking.

My unrefined alloy is in the muffins and the elongated cornbread mould for my ready to use ally and they stand on end neatly in the pot


yodar

[Ted]

My ingot molds are empty soda cans. I use a manual can opener to cut the top off then wash and dry them, then fill with molten/cleaned WW's.

Each one holds 7.5lbs or so. They stack and store well and the can can easily be pulled off with pliers when I need to use an ingot.

Ted

[Safeshot]

Old (yard sale) dirty, rusty, nasty - cast iron muffin pans work just fine, be sure to clean any "grease" out of them first. Even the cheap imported (new) cast iron muffin pans will work also. The little "corn bread sticks" cast iron pans are also an option. One individual I know uses stainless steel "egg poaching" inserts individually. It works for him, he handles them with a pair of channel lock pliers held upside down and sets them on a "dry" concrete block to cool. Wear welders gloves and eye protection, be careful, Safeshot

[Doc Highwall]

I sat here reading about some of the troubles some of you had and recall how mine were sticking and decided that this is supposed to be enjoyable not a exercise in frustration. I solved my problem, at wallmart I bought four 8" cast iron frying pans, these are for making 20+ lb ingots after I do my first melt from my 11qt dutch oven. Then for when I mix my alloy I bought four more cast iron pans made by lodge that make 8 ingots each that weigh 2.5lbs each and they fit in my Wage or LEE 20lb pot with no problem.

[DUKE NUKEM]

Swamprat, interesting. I've never used aluminum cup cake pans but the only SWAG I can come up with sounds like the aluminum was too thin and when the hot alloy filled the cup it stretched with the heat. When the alloy cooled off and shrank (lead shrinks when cooled) the aluminum just shrank with it so the ingot didn't come loose. This is just a SWAG for lack of thinking of anything else. You might try freezing them, that might shrink'em enough to get'em out.

Let us know the outcome, there are probably several folks that have had similair experiences.

Rick

Yep! that's what I was going to say. Might freeze them and throw them on concrete. Just an idea.

[Ricky P]

i got some new pans and my ingots stuck so i smutted them and now they will work just fine they had the no stick coating on them my other plain jane alum no stick at all. One thing to look at is the taper of the pan some have angle wall all the way to the top some dont the ones that dont will hang on me just dont feel them to full.

[alamogunr]

Old (yard sale) dirty, rusty, nasty - cast iron muffin pans work just fine, be sure to clean any "grease" out of them first. Even the cheap imported (new) cast iron muffin pans will work also. The little "corn bread sticks" cast iron pans are also an option. One individual I know uses stainless steel "egg poaching" inserts individually. It works for him, he handles them with a pair of channel lock pliers held upside down and sets them on a "dry" concrete block to cool. Wear welders gloves and eye protection, be careful, Safeshot

Let those cast iron pans of any type get rusty. Nothing will stick. I have several different varieties of cast iron pans and the more rusty(I don't know if "rustier" is a word) the better.
John
W.TN

[DUKE NUKEM]

Let those cast iron pans of any type get rusty. Nothing will stick. I have several different varieties of cast iron pans and the more rusty(I don't know if "rustier" is a word) the better.
John
W.TN

Yep! :-D

[spurrit]

RUST: The original non-stick coating!