What, exactly, is "Antimony wash"?

[milrifle]

Hey guys, I'm still pretty new to this bullet casting. Beginning to think I always will be. Anyway, what exactly is "Antimony wash"? Is it necessarily a bad thing? I'm shooting an '03-A3 with Lee C312-185-2R over 26gr of RL-7. Bullets are air cooled wheel weights with a fair amount of tin added (Probably 5%). I have no leading that I can tell, but I have a grey deposit in my barrel. The deposit doesn't seem to hurt accuracy. When cleaning, initial wet patches (Shooter's Choice) come out almost perfectly clean. Only after using a bore brush do I get any dirty patches, but even then, the gun is easy to clean and comes out with a shiney bore. Is this "Antimony wash"?

[BLTsandwedge]

Antimony wash is the quasi-legal term for a court-ordered alimony settlement......'cause you just got hosed.

Sorry- I'm just not suited for useful information.

[popper]

Could be but you are using a lot of tin so probably not. I use Ed's red for cleaning, there is no copper in the bbl. I just use a soaked patch on a swab, let it sit and then dry patches. They come out greyish black from powder and lube residue. "Antimony wash" supposedly doesn't affect accuracy, leading does. I don't know if anyone has actually analyzed the grey dust to see what it really is.

[btroj]

Antimony wash, to me, is a light grey wash on the bore. It isn't lumps. It isn't anything more than a light grey color. Think of what coppers pulling looks like at the muzzle. That is what antimony wash will look like.

Tends to be from alloys with much more antimony that tin. Tin helps mix antimony into the alloy, forms an "inter metallic complex" of tin and antimony that keepsake antimony crystals from forming on the surface of the bullet. These crystals leave the antimony wash.

Keep your tin and antimony in close to equal amounts and it can be largely prevented. Tin need not be in identical percentage but within a 1/2 percent is fine.

Again, it isn't a big deal in most cases. I generally ignore it. It can easily be confused with leading butit is a different beast.

[geargnasher]

+1 Btroj.

Sounds like "tin wash" to me, overtinned alloy (more tin than antimony) leaves free tin above and beyond the amount of antimony in the mix, and it forms free nodules throughout the alloy. Tin is sticky, and tends to rub off in the bore.

High-tin binary alloys are a true alloy, with good bonding and distribution, so they don't tend to "wash" this way, they either lead or don't due to gas cutting and blowby.

Antimony wash will 90% wipe out with one pass of a dry patch, the rest will come out with a light brushing. Lead and tin deposits are much more difficult to remove.

Balancing antimony and tin in the mix to equal parts by weight or a little less tin than antimony do well because tin and antimony form an intermetallic bond that adds a great deal of strength and toughness to a lead-based alloyl without making it brittle unless the percentages start to get high. The intermetallic bond of the tin with the antimony keeps the brittle antimony crystals from freezing out on the surface of the boolit where they get rubbed off and deposited in the bore as a dull grey, dusty residue.

Gear

[btroj]

See Gear, I listen to what you say!

[runfiverun]

heck i like the antimony dendrites leaving a little wash behind.
i know they are cleaning/scraping/smoothing the rest of the time.
i'd just quit putting so much tin in the alloy, it causes hard spots of tin surrounded by soft spots of pure lead all over the boolit.
this causes enough issues on its own.

[milrifle]

Thanks guys. I have not tried using just a dry patch. I will next time just to see.

Where do I get Ed's Red? Is it sbomething I can buy, or is it a type of "home brew" I can make myself?

BTW, I'm using a non-cooked version of 45/45/10 for lube. Like I said before, no leading that I can tell, but it smokes pretty good every time I fire. Any chance my deposit is ash or soot? But then again, it didn't make a wet patch very dirty, so probably not huh?

[milrifle]

Never mind about the Ed's Red. Found the recipe. I may give that a try and save my Shooter's Choice for if I ever shoot jacketed again.

[btroj]

Could well be ash or soot.

A dry patch downs barel will tell you a fair amount of it is snug. It will hang up on leading or other deposits.

A couple drympatches downs bore followed by a look thru the barrel will generally let ou see honest to goodness leading. It will be pretty clear to see in the corners of the grooves or near the throat.

Too heavy a coat of the lube you at easing will cause much smoking.

[Larry Gibson]

Pretty well explained in above posts. Suggest you reduce the amount of tin to 2% with COWWs and let air cool for 7 - 10 days before use. Also you don't mention the lube used?) which could be a problem also.

Larry Gibson

[milrifle]

Larry,

I'm using an uncooked version of 45/45/10. I just mixed the LLA, JPW, and mineral spirits together. Makes a rather thin mix that does not need to be heated to be used, but still dries pretty quickly (30 minutes or so).

[geargnasher]

45/45/10 works LOTS better if you follow the instructions. Be sure and cook the LLA and JPW together after you add the LLA to drive off the 45% solvent in the LLA too. The point is to blend the paraffin/carnauba and Alox 606 together with HEAT, not with SOLVENTS. Get rid of all the solvents, melt them good, and then add aliphatic mineral spirits back to it until it's like 30-wt engine oil at room temp. Might take a lot more than 10% to do that, so don't be shy.

Gear

[milrifle]

I will probably try that next time. I saw the recipe for this on YouTube before I saw the instructions for cooking it on here. Didn't know any better at the time.

[btroj]

Take what you have now and heat it. Just get it warm enough to melt and maybe a bit more. Keep it there for 20 min or so. Let it cool down, add mineral spirits back in and all is good.

[milrifle]

I can heat it, but I'm unsure about 'warm enough to melt'. It is a liquid already.

[btroj]

Get it around 200 degrees and keep it there. Hold for 15 min or so and all will be good.

[runfiverun]

you'll see the solvents come out.
i do mine in the microwave and can see the solvents steam out i know it's time to pull the jpw out of the wave when i see that and hit it wth the xlox and re-heat.
don't do this in the house.
unless you want that micro-wave for out in the garage to make more lube in.

[Larry Gibson]

milrifle

Larry,

I'm using an uncooked version of 45/45/10. I just mixed the LLA, JPW, and mineral spirits together. Makes a rather thin mix that does not need to be heated to be used, but still dries pretty quickly (30 minutes or so).

It would appear your home made lube is not working well. Frankly I find LLA works just as well "as is" and do not concoct it with other incredients. I soak the bottle in hot tap water for 5-10 minutes to thin it out and then apply as per Lee's instructions. I've not has it fail to work just fine with with no leading or "wash" using many bullet/load combinations such as yours. I go by the old axim that if it ain't broke "don't fix it" and if "it works why improve it". For me LLA works very well when used as instructed and intended (such as with your load). I would fall back and use your LLA straight and see if it works.

Others will disagree but we see many more such "problems" associated with LLA in concoction than with LLA straight. LLA is a good lube for it's intended purpose. It is not a "does all" lube but for loads like yours there is no reason it should not work just fine "as is".

Larry Gibson

[milrifle]

All,

I really appreciate all of your help and comments.

Larry,

I can certainly understand where you are coming from. I have used LLA straight, but it seems to take forever to dry. That is why I decided to try mixing it. Perhaps I will give the straight LLA another try and see if I still get the deposit. I will say that the deposit doesn't seem to be affecting accuracy, or maybe it is. I'm still experimenting with different things to try to get my groups smaller. Maybe straight LLA will improve the groups. I'll tell you this, if it does, you can bet I will put up with the long drying times.

Thanks again to all of you,

Milrifle

[Larry Gibson]

A heat lamp or an old hairdryer can speed the drying up this time of year.

Larry Gibson

[JIMinPHX]

+1 Btroj.

Sounds like "tin wash" to me, overtinned alloy (more tin than antimony) leaves free tin above and beyond the amount of antimony in the mix, and it forms free nodules throughout the alloy. Tin is sticky, and tends to rub off in the bore.

High-tin binary alloys are a true alloy, with good bonding and distribution, so they don't tend to "wash" this way, they either lead or don't due to gas cutting and blowby.

Antimony wash will 90% wipe out with one pass of a dry patch, the rest will come out with a light brushing. Lead and tin deposits are much more difficult to remove.

Balancing antimony and tin in the mix to equal parts by weight or a little less tin than antimony do well because tin and antimony form an intermetallic bond that adds a great deal of strength and toughness to a lead-based alloyl without making it brittle unless the percentages start to get high. The intermetallic bond of the tin with the antimony keeps the brittle antimony crystals from freezing out on the surface of the boolit where they get rubbed off and deposited in the bore as a dull grey, dusty residue.

Gear

Gear,
It sounds like you really have a handle on that stuff. Where did you learn about that sort of thing? I'd like to read up on it a little more.

Thanks,
Jim

[geargnasher]

Gear,
It sounds like you really have a handle on that stuff. Where did you learn about that sort of thing? I'd like to read up on it a little more.

Thanks,
Jim

The Metals Handbook, volume II is one good source, found that one at the local library because normal humans can't afford to buy it. Most of the rest I figured out myself, and feeble recollection from my education (just short of a BS) in mechanical engineering from Texas A&I hasn't hurt me any, and some I've picked up from other books and particularly from abstracts found on the internet. If you don't have the ASM set in your shop, dig up a ternary phase diagram (like in Lyman cast 3rd ed.) and study the molecular structures of non-ferrous alloys and it's sort of intuitive. I'm sure you're familiar with nodular iron, the freeze point, miscibility, saturation point, and grain structure of certain alloys is prone to nodule formation (graphite in iron, tin in overtinned ternary Pb/Sb/Sn alloy). I verified my intuitions on tin wash by doing melt-point tests of surface residue with flames of known temperature, plus testing with electroplating solutions of lead acetate through which I discovered tin will not migrate to the anode, but lead and lead oxide will. Tin wash is also identifiable by melt point, I used a propane torch and infrared heat gun to identify it in a barrel I didn't care too much about. The grey wash probably contains lead, tin, and antimony oxide as well as elemental antimony, but I haven't had any of it analyzed, all I know is it doesn't have much if any elemental lead or tin in it, and starts melting around 1100 degrees, but not completely until around 2K(F), making me think oxides are present. The information I gave on intermetallic Sb/Sn bonds comes from the ASM book and from the brief and broken description in the Lyman book, which lead me to further research on this in the first place.

One other thing that's important to boolit alloy, but not so much to the topic here, is grain refiners. Sulfur and Arsenic are the biggies with lead and lead alloys, and affect the dentrite formations by breaking up the linear planes so that shear stresses are more evenly distributed and the metal is not only less brittle, but doesn't "flake off" as easily. Refining the lead and antimony structures makes the boolit surface more robust and that alone makes the alloy less prone to rub off in a bore. Binding antimony with tin helps in the same way, bigger molecules with stronger attractions makes a tougher surface.

Gear

[geargnasher]

milrifle

Larry,

I'm using an uncooked version of 45/45/10. I just mixed the LLA, JPW, and mineral spirits together. Makes a rather thin mix that does not need to be heated to be used, but still dries pretty quickly (30 minutes or so).

It would appear your home made lube is not working well. Frankly I find LLA works just as well "as is" and do not concoct it with other incredients. I soak the bottle in hot tap water for 5-10 minutes to thin it out and then apply as per Lee's instructions. I've not has it fail to work just fine with with no leading or "wash" using many bullet/load combinations such as yours. I go by the old axim that if it ain't broke "don't fix it" and if "it works why improve it". For me LLA works very well when used as instructed and intended (such as with your load). I would fall back and use your LLA straight and see if it works.

Others will disagree but we see many more such "problems" associated with LLA in concoction than with LLA straight. LLA is a good lube for it's intended purpose. It is not a "does all" lube but for loads like yours there is no reason it should not work just fine "as is".

Larry Gibson

Dry film lubes are marginal in the first place. The Recluse concoction doesn't work any better in my experience in the leading department than straight Liquid Alox, but works much better in the smoke, dry time, and dry tack departments than straight liquid Alox. Neither have given me top accuracy in anything, but often it's plenty good for the purpose, usually handguns. I've made Recluse lube with and without cooking, and there's a big difference in how it performs in the barrel. If you don't cook it enough it doesn't work as well.

I will agree wholeheartedly with one little snippet you mentioned, liquid Alox works just dandy in it's INTENDED purpose as a cutting oil additive and as an industrial rust inhibitor (off-shore oil platforms).

Gear

[runfiverun]

small amounts of tin [under .25%] will act as a grain refiner in a lead-antimonial alloy also.
you give up some stuff we want from the tin to get the difference,and arsenic makes it up in ww alloy any way.
but there is/are lot's of ways to skin the cat with a lead alloy.

[JIMinPHX]

Gear,

Thanks for posting that. I took EE, not ME, so my material science background is a little thin. I just picked up what I needed as got involved in various projects through the years. My non-ferrous alloy knowledge has a lot of big holes in it. Your information gives me a good base of information to work from.

Just one more thing I'd like to ask you about - what is the "ASM book" & where might I find one?

Thanks,
Jim

[geargnasher]

Sorry about that, Jim, the American Society of Metals (ASM) publishes The Metals Handbook series. There is a volume for each subject they address, and many editions of each have been printed over the years.

Lamar is right about the tin, and there are others as well that are more difficult to deal with than the usual suspects.

Gear