A Question for the Experienced

[lovedogs]

Just got a new mould, a Saeco #17 (350 gr. GC). The plan was to get a hunting bullet for my .45-70 that could do double duty on short-range silhouettes. To begin with I wanted to try a 20:1 alloy thinking that maybe I could get away with the softness using a GC. I believe it was in some of Paul Matthews writings that he said a soft bullet at 1300-1500 FPS really works nice on deer.

I cast up a trial batch of the 350's using a 20:1 alloy. They weigh 345 gr. and look nice. I loaded them up with 28 gr. of 5744. They shoot into groups of about an inch at 100 yds. Even got one at .574 in.!! All nice round groups with almost no variance shot-to-shot, averaging 1434 FPS at 77 degrees. They tested at a 5 using a Saeco hardness tester, pretty soft.

My question is if anyone out there has tried anything like this slug on deer. It's meplat measures .230. Is that wide enough to work? Can I expect any expansion with this at this velocity? Or will it be wide enough without expansion to do the job on deer?

I'm not sure how much faster I could push it without leading with this soft alloy and am pretty sure if I went to a Lyman #2 that I'd get no expansion at all. With this small meplat I thought if it would expand some it might do better. Any experienced opinions?

[Buckshot]

................I've shot a deer with cast (30-06, 311284 @ 217grs and 1650 fps) and a boar (45-70, Lee 457-405F cast pure lead and paper patched, 1600 fps).

Both booits exited. The deer was 60 yards, frontal neck, hit spine and departed. The pig was 40-50 yards, broadside shot behind LF leg. Broke 2 ribs and is still going for all I know.

Consider what was historicly hunted and killed with the 45-70 and black powder, and at BP velocities. I'd consider a 350gr slug at 1400 fps a fine package for deer to 100 yards. The slug is already very close to a half inch in diameter. Look at the ballistics for a 44 Mag with a 300gr slug :-)

...............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

My question is if anyone out there has tried anything like this slug on deer. It's meplat measures .230. Is that wide enough to work? Can I expect any expansion with this at this velocity? Or will it be wide enough without expansion to do the job on deer?


Everything works till it don't.

Try a couple of water filled milk jugs and see if they explode. Exploding is shock. That will give you much more confidence than anything we could say. Then you could move a couple on out and see where the explosion effect stops. Where it does, you either need more velocity or more meplat. If it works as far as you will shoot, you are home free.

[Lloyd Smale]

Like lovedogs said just about the entire buffalo herd in the US was wiped out by loads not as powerful as that and using pure lead. Pure lead was used in the old british stopping rifles too and has taken every game animal in the world. Understand that thats what was used because its all they had and a good hardcast bullet would have been much better in most circumstances but for what your doing they will probably work spectacularly.

[quack1]

I have shot deer with: Lee 457-340, meplat about .240; lyman 457198 meplat about .260 and lyman 457121 meplat about .230 all cast of 20-1 and going between 1200 and 1400. All deer were shot through the lungs and all died. I can't say for sure if the bullets expanded or not. The exit holes were larger than the entrance holes but that could have been from rib pieces exiting with the bullets. Your bullet and load should work just fine. Probably would work as well with straight ac wheel weights too.

[black44hawk]

You do not need a 45 caliber rifle bullet to expand, unless you want a deader than dead deer with ruined meat. Your accuracy is excellent: just punch a half inch hole through those lungs. No animal on earth can live with a big hole through both lungs.

[arkypete]

You do not need a 45 caliber rifle bullet to expand, unless you want a deader than dead deer with ruined meat. Your accuracy is excellent: just punch a half inch hole through those lungs. No animal on earth can live with a big hole through both lungs.



Exactly!
:drinks:

Jim
PS
Sort of reminds me of the old story from back in the cowboy and indians days.
An Eastern newspaper reporter was asking a crusty old buffalo hunter, cowboy, indian scout why he used a 45 Colt.

His response was.....

They don't make a 46 Colt.
Jim

[9.3X62AL]

Agreement with all the above. I also like Ammohead's response to a question of this nature, "Can you hunt game animals with cast boolits?"

"Seen many buffalo lately?"

That accuracy you describe is a fine thing. I think you've found your load--draw a tag and go hunting. FWIW, the 9.3mm boolit I'm using this coming year has a .270" meplat--weighs 270 grains--and will run about 1700 FPS.

[frank505]

The 017 cast harder than the 20:1 alloy has taken 13 elk and over 30 mule deer with two constants, no bullets recovered and two to three inch wound channels. Fairly fast 45/70 loads were used, at least 1600 fps, not bad for a small meplated bullet that is supposed to be outdated by the almost wadcutter now in vogue. This little 017 will be very accurate on paper and doesn't kick like the heavier bullets.

[nighthunter]

I have no experience with the saeco mold in the 45-70. However, I have killed quite a few deer with Lymans 457122 bullet. It drops from my molds at 335 grains and kills deer instantly. I have never had one take more than 1 step after the shot. The 457122 is a hollow point design and is very accurate in my Ruger #1 and a custom Siamese Mauser. I have no doubt that your bullet will do as well. Put it in the right spot and have a tag near by.
Nighthunter

[leftiye]

Ken Waters and others used to say that pure lead would expand at 1200 fps (that that velocity was needed to cause lead to upset on impact in tissue). Any hoo, you will still be going 1200 fps at 100 yds, I'd guess (you could look it up in the ballistic tables). Various guys here on this board say that their boolits made of 1/2 and 1/2 WW/Pure will expand, so your alloy probly will too. I'd bet that it'll work just like you want it to. BTW & FWIW, It's exactly the same boolit and alloy I've looked at for just this purpose. Give it some wet phone book studies and let us know!

[lovedogs]

Thanks for all your input, fellas. I'm really anxious to give this a try. I called a buddy back at Saeco and he, too, was surprised at the accuracy. But, on the other hand, he knew that the BC's use Green Mountain bbls. and are often quite accurate. It's really strange how one can develop feelings for a particular rifle. When I first bought this rifle I was somewhat intimidated when shooting with people who had guns costing many times what this one did. After a few years of competition I now have another attitude. Now I dare them to shoot against us. If they've seen her shot they back off real quick. We have a whole team of shooters in our local club now who are shooting these accurate guns. I'll let you know how this works out after the fall hunting season. You'll hear the end of the story for sure.

[sledgehammer]

Hey Buckshot,
what you pushin' that 311284/30-06 with? Might be a tad better'n mine....
Jon H in AZ:mrgreen:

[38-55]

Lovedogs,
HEy I missed what riffle your using, could ya enlighten me ( Or humor as it may be) ?
I've used the lyman gould hollow point for years ( 453122) in a new england arms carbine to take a pile of deer. Here in md we can take 36 deer per season and I have crop kill tags for a bunch of farms... So I really don'y know how many deer I have killed with this load but it's a lot. I used 27 gns of accurate 5744 and I've never recovered a bullet from a carcass. Never had one go more than ten steps.
Sounds like ya got a good un' there !
Calvin
PS "seen any buffalo lately?" I like that !

[Buckshot]

Hey Buckshot,
what you pushin' that 311284/30-06 with? Might be a tad better'n mine....
Jon H in AZ:mrgreen:

.............23.0grs H4198 + dacron. Good load.

............Buckshot