What's doing this to my cases??

[nitrohuck]

So on about every 15 or so rounds outta my turret press this keeps happening:

55970

Is this the gas check doing this or the dies?

Specs: 7.5 Swiss, RCBS dies, lee classic turret press, NOE k31 boolits

Maybe this is a common easy fix problem, I've never reloaded rifle rounds so I was surprised to say the least when this came outta the press!

[gutpile]

I bet its a lee turret press not spinning to the next station index????

[gutpile]

i had one do this 20 years ago........i pitched the auto index and indexed by hand manually

[zuke]

Are you belling the case mouth's?

[nvbirdman]

I bet the boolit is tipping as you spin the turret to the seating stage.

[snuffy]

The shells in the back of the collapsed one don't look to be belled. You have to bell rifle cases just like a pistol round. You can do that with the Lyman "M" die, the lee universal expander, or the RCBS neck expander. The Lyman and RCBS expands the whole length of the neck, the lee only bells the extreme front of the mouth.

Your boolit caught on the mouth. You may not have chamfered them either, or not enough.

[nhrifle]

Looks like the cases weren't expended enough to me as well. I used to get alot of 30-30 brass that looked like that until I learned to bell the case mouths before bullet seating. Expand it enough so the bullet will sit by itself on the case mouth. Before running the case into the die, I give the bullet a little shove into the case with hand pressure, just to make sure it stays on it ride to the seating plug. That probably does nothing except make me feel better, but it's what I do. Be sure to use either the crimp shoulder of your seating die or a seperate crimp die to flatten out the bell before shooting!

[nitrohuck]

Ahh... Okay this makes sense... So I think the issue is the expander...

I don't have an expander die to bell the case with, I have been doing the full length size and then seating, so only two dies... Bullets do not really Balance on top of the cases by themselves so I need to bell the mouth out more I guess

I actually wasn't using the auto index I had the indexing rod removed and did everything stage by stage

So do I need something like a universal expander die? Or is the decap/FL sizing able to do that if I twist it down further?

Thanks for the answers thus far!

[quilbilly]

It doesn't take much belling. I just use an old fashion sailor's marlinspike and give the car a turn. Any round, tapered tool will do the job.

[snuffy]

Lyman "M" die;

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/129697/lyman-neck-expander-m-die-30-caliber-long

RCBS NECK EXPANDER;

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/735762/rcbs-neck-expander-die-224

With the RCBS, you only need to buy one die body, the expander spuds are threaded on a central threaded rod. They can be changed for different calibers. This is what I use, got .224, .358, and .458.

Lee expander/bell die;

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die

[FLINTNFIRE]

quilbilly is that a metal spike or a wood spike ? We use the wood ones for rope splicing here on the boats , and the metal ones were for splicing wire rope , did a lot of that working on highlead logging sides when I was younger ,,sorry for the thread hijack.

[44man]

Yes, cases need belled. But I see too much annealing on the brass, below the shoulders. The loads in the back show collapsed shoulders from brass too soft. Even a crimp will force shoulders down.
Then loading too fast rears it's ugly head here.
You must maintain shoulder integrity as you ease in a boolit. Your brass is WAY too soft.

[cbrick]

I think 44man is right. Did you anneal the brass? New brass? Something really amiss there and yes, WAY too soft.

Look at the collapsed (double shoulders ??) on the loaded rounds in the background, do they even chamber?

But as to your question, yes, not enough belling. Along with brass that soft and you see the result.

Rick

[zuke]

Standard resizing die's don't bell, they only return your brass to the proper dia.
Get the LEE universal belling die.

[Blammer]

make sure your cases are trimmed to the same length, then the "belling die" or "M die" will work great. On the cases that are a bit short that is likely and occurance because the mouth didn't get flaired enough.

[Hardcast416taylor]

For alot of years I used a small pair of needle nosed pliars and gently rotated them in the case mouth to do the case mouth belling. Nowadays I use "M" dies with customised size belling expanders.Robert

[nitrohuck]

That is a huge bummer you say the brass is too soft...

It's all brand new... PPU unloaded brass from grafs so it's never seen a bullet nor has it been fired...

All rounds chamber properly, luckily I'm such a noob that I forgot to throw charges into three cases so i used them to see if they chamber and cycle, all of them did so perfectly and I even (very carefully) chambered a live round and it was fine as well...

I plan on annealing after I shoot say 3-4 loads of 16gr 2400, but what you see is all from the factory as is

As for collapsed shoulders I honestly think that is the lighting playing tricks, all the cases look just like the front and center one I snapped a photo of (save the collapsed neck obviously) but I see what you mean from the photos and can say without a doubt that they don't look like that in person

[Beekeeper]

Hard cast Taylor,
I didn't know there was any other way until I found this website and started reading all the stickys.
Used the same pair of needle nosed pliars for 40 years and they are still in my reloading box.


beekeeper

[StratsMan]

Nitro,

I found an extra use for old 223 brass before I recycle it: I use it as an expander for 30 cal necks!

Doesn't take much... I just stand up the 30 cal after it's sized, trimmed and cleaned, then put the neck of the 223 brass down into the 30 cal neck, and give a tap to the base of the 223 brass with a convenient hammer. Not precise by any means, but it gets the job done. Doesn't take much bell, either. Just enough so you can feel it when you run your fingers along the neck, and you're good...

[nitrohuck]

Nitro,

I found an extra use for old 223 brass before I recycle it: I use it as an expander for 30 cal necks!

Doesn't take much... I just stand up the 30 cal after it's sized, trimmed and cleaned, then put the neck of the 223 brass down into the 30 cal neck, and give a tap to the base of the 223 brass with a convenient hammer. Not precise by any means, but it gets the job done. Doesn't take much bell, either. Just enough so you can feel it when you run your fingers along the neck, and you're good...


Sweet!!! I just picked up about 200 rounds of .223 brass off the range (thanks VT State Game Wardens for your lack of reloading hehe) so this is perfect. Rubber mallet, .223 round, belled case! I will try this out when I get home

[44man]

Maybe lighting and camera.
Boolits look frosty and hard so they should take neck tension. I would not anneal too soon if at all.

[Wayne Smith]

With that load, even if you full resize which you should for a lever, you should not need to anneal for about 15 or 20 reloads. The only exception to this would be if you get a neck split sooner. Then anneal all the necks.

[cbrick]

With that load, even if you full resize which you should for a lever, you should not need to anneal for about 15 or 20 reloads. The only exception to this would be if you get a neck split sooner. Then anneal all the necks.


I would not anneal too soon if at all.

Ditto.

Rick

[wallenba]

Is that the brass that's pushed down or the alloy? If it's the case mouth, it's got to be catching on the mouth of the die from misalignment.

[swheeler]

I'm not so sure that a good inside chamfering of the mouth after FL sizing wouldn't fix this problem. I chamfer all new brass whether using an M die or not, I load many without an M die, just a good inside chamfer and have none of that going on.

[ukrifleman]

Standard resizing die's don't bell, they only return your brass to the proper dia.
Get the LEE universal belling die.
+1 for the Lee universal case expanding die, it will work on all cases from .22-.45 cal. It is robust, simple to use and probably the cheapest around.
ukrifleman

[quilbilly]

Metal marlinspikes. I have a couple, both large and small, from days past. The small marlinspike is the one I use for open the mouth of cases down to 204 Ruger. Lee used to make such a tool about 3" long for their Lee Loader handgun reloading kits in the small boxes but I don't think they do anymore.

[blackthorn]

I use a .50 cal bullet and a small hammer.

[nitrohuck]

Whelp... I used a .223 case to bell the mouths out and viola! Not a single snag...

Now I have to figure out how much crimp to put on the thing if any,

As for annealing, mental note taken! I will not anneal these cases for some time, if at all. If I do higher power loads I will take it as it comes, but for the 2400 16gr load I will not anneal.

Got out to the range today with it, had a blast! Those rounds are peppy and really fun, I don't mind the heavy kick of a full powered round, but this was a fun changeover to shoot a lighter charged round. Will need to get some bench time soon with this one, we only had time to go to the shooting pits today, so no tables there... Next up, the gun club!

Anyone know the rough max effective range of the 16gr 2400 load? Max effective meaning how long before accuracy really is lost? I am not hunting, these need to do nothing more than put a hole in paper... should I expect decent accuracy to 300yrds? Guess time will tell the ultimate answer

Thanks so much thus far guys!
~Nitro

[hithard]

+1 on chamfer the inside of the necks, go with the vld chamfer tool. Their should be no need to bell the neck if you are useing a gas check, and have a descent chamfer on that leading edge.

If your not using a gas check then a very healthy chamfer or a slight bell to the neck will be needed.

[leadman]

Should be able to hit a 10" bull at 200 yards at least.
Just to mention it once a person has the Lyman die body the individual expanders are available seperately from Lyman for around $5. The Lee Univeral die only flares the case mouth so if you use soft boolits the boolit can be sized down by the case neck. The RCBS and Lyman expanders open up the neck for cast boolits.

Glad you enjoyed firing your rounds. No sense getting beat up to shoot paper.

[MtGun44]

You need a Lee Universal Expander Die to bell the cases.

Bill

[Wayne Smith]

You need a Lee Universal Expander Die to bell the cases.

Bill

Not really, Bill. There are many ways to simply bell the case. He needs either the Lyman or the RCBS die if he wants to do more than simply bell, which I recommend. Especially if one is looking for long range accuracy.

[snuffy]

Anyone know the rough max effective range of the 16gr 2400 load? Max effective meaning how long before accuracy really is lost? I am not hunting, these need to do nothing more than put a hole in paper... should I expect decent accuracy to 300yrds? Guess time will tell the ultimate answer

Thanks so much thus far guys!
~Nitro

Glad we could help! I love it when a plan works out!

As for long range accuracy, I don't know YET! I just finished 30 rounds with the Lyman 225462 60 grain round nose. Load development with surplus 4895 supposedly the IMR variety. 16.0 to 21.0. This is a gas checked boolit. I've read here and other places that it's not a good idea to seat the boolit so it leaves the gas check hanging below the bottom of the neck. That leaves the front lube groove exposed. Not a problem for a plastic round box straight to the mag, but would result in collection of crud on the sticky exposed lube.

I used the above mentioned RCBS neck expander die in .224. It does expands the inside of the neck all the way to the end,(and then some), but the belling is just that a tapered, funnel, shape. If you went too far, it would look like a funnel! The Lyman "M" die has a step that forms a second neck with straight sides, not a tapered bell. With any of the expanders, it's imperative that the cases are ALL trimmed to the same length.

I was using once fired LC brass that I recently got, '05, '07---. They were all real long, I suspect they were fired in a saw or other machine gun. I used the lee system, followed by a VLD inside chamfer and a RCBS outside DE-burr tool.

Finally, I ran each one through a Lee factory crimp die. Set to bring the bell back to the outside diameter of the neck. It makes no actual squeeze on the boolit.

I plan on shooting these over my chrono while shooting @ 100 yds. I should have a good idea afterwards to load up a bunch for general plinking. Oh, these will be shot in my bushy AR, 1-9x 20 inch bull barrel with a Nikon monarch 6.5 x 16.5.

This a is all about .223, so it doesn't directly relate to your loading, but the methods described do relate to most cast boolit reloading in most rifle calibers.

[blackthorn]

Nitrohuck---Brass "work hardens", the strength of the load or the type of powder used is not a major factor in determining when annealing is indicated, rather it is the number of times the brass has been fired. There is also some evidence that really old fired (even only once) or brass from ammunition that has been stored for a long time becomes subject to split necks. You really need to do a search for threads related to annealing and read them so you will understand this fairly simple but seemingly complex subject.

[cbrick]

Here is an outstanding article on annealing for why to, when to and how to and not to.

http://lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm

Rick

[nitrohuck]

excellent, thanks for the annealing info!

Anyone have anything to report from the field concerning the 16gr of 2400 and the max effective range for target work?

[zuke]

If it's a military rifle, just keep raising the rear site till accuracy fall's off.

[Echo]

Yes, cases need belled. But I see too much annealing on the brass, below the shoulders. The loads in the back show collapsed shoulders from brass too soft. Even a crimp will force shoulders down.
Then loading too fast rears it's ugly head here.
You must maintain shoulder integrity as you ease in a boolit. Your brass is WAY too soft.

I disagree, 44man. I think what we are seeing is an optical problem, with the light making it look like there are two shoulders, when really there is only one.

[MtGun44]

Sorry to insist, but the Lee Universal Expander Die is A solution to his immediate
problem. The ONLY solution? No, but a perfectly valid one. I use it for many
cartridges with excellent results and recommend it. Never claimed to cure the
common cold or whatever, but it will fix the problem the OP was asking about.

Bill

[dpote]

If it's a military rifle, just keep raising the rear site till accuracy fall's off.

Funniest post ever!
Thanks for the laugh, I needed that.

Dave

[zuke]

:bigsmyl2:

[44man]

I disagree, 44man. I think what we are seeing is an optical problem, with the light making it look like there are two shoulders, when really there is only one.
Yes, the OP responded. I also take pictures that never show what I want and what is not there.
Just had to make sure! [smilie=f:

[44man]

Been thinking about the flare and remember never doing it years ago for rifles but I used GC boolits. I just trimmed and cut the edges with the deburring tools. The VLD works great.
PB would need a tiny amount. A little does not hurt either way.
A guy at work long ago brought in boxes of cast ACP he loaded and A few bought them. Then I got calls and a few coming over because the rounds would not chamber. Now I never seen anything like it---EVER! Looked like half the boolit was on the outside of the brass.
I could only say I could not do anything to help, pull the boolits and keep the brass.

[nitrohuck]

Okay! Figured I would follow up on this thread,

I bought the VLD chamfer tool, works like a charm! GC-ed boolits sit on top by themselves (which previously they would fall off unless held in place) before I ram em up into the seating die, and have had zero clipped/squished case mouth edges like you see in my OP

Thanks a ton for the help guys! Got lots of people assisting me on my k31 expedition here, I have range reports comin soon!
~Nitrohuck

[Tbird]

I agree with snuffy