Point of impact very low with cast bullet 30-06 [Help]

[robotman2009]

So here is the situation. I have been casting some 200gr bullets with a Lee mold, sizing them to .309 with gas check and then lubing them in ALOX. I have tried these bullets in two 30-06 rifles that I own and while they seem to group fairly well they hit very low compared to where my jacketed bullet loads would usually hit. I have tried a few different charges like 13gr reddot (the load), 35gr, 37gr, 40gr of 3031. I was expecting it to be a little bit low since its a heavy bullet and I'm shooting it slower but with the 40gr of 3031 I would expect it to be close... IT'S NOT!!! It's like 1.5 ft low at 40 meters. Any ideas why or if there is something i can do?

[RED333]

Barrel whip is different, Work you load to get good groups, then sight in your rifle for that load.

[Wolfer]

This has been my expierence in my 8mm Mauser. I have to change the front sight if I want to shoot jacketed. My three 30-06s, 30-30, 7x57 will only be slightly low.
Don't know the answer.

[zuke]

Tagged for interest.

[milrifle]

I have to raise my 03-A3 sights to 400 yds to make it hit right at 100 yds. Shooting 185 gr bullet over 26 gr of Reloader 7.

[Jbiker]

just out of curiousity have you slugged the barrel ?

[robotman2009]

I haven't slugged the barrel. The two rifles I'm using is a savage 111 30-06 thats pretty much brand new. I figured all of the newer rifles would probably slug at ~.308... The second one is a Remington 721. Both shoot fairly tight groups (The holes all touch at 25-50 meters range). I would just sight it in but I don't think it's possible with the scopes given how absurdly low it is hitting. I think I would have to remount the scope but with a shim under the rear scope mount to get the sort of adjustment I need. I mean, the holes I'm punching in the cardboard are darn near below my field of vision through my scope at 9x magnification even at ~35 meters.

Sorry for the "wishy-washy" ranges I'm giving. I'm not really paying attention to the distance at this point. Just walking out a little ways with a box to put some holes in.

[robotman2009]

Thanks for your guys' replies. I wasn't expecting to get much attention from this forum but this is awesome! I think at this point I might just try to either find some sort of peep sight I can mount to my Remington 721 that will offer a wider range of adjustment or try and find some mounting hardware to physically mount the scope and a more canted angle.

[Larry Gibson]

Barrel whip, nodes or some such has nothing to do with the POI in your '06. It all has to do with the difference in muzzle velocity and the bullet drop at 100 yards between your jacketed loads and cast loads. Assuming normal jacketed loads(?) and a 200 yard zero with them(?) then a 450 - 600 yard zero for your jacketed loads will be needed o bring the cast bullet loads up to a 100 yards zero.

Larry Gibson

[robotman2009]

I would agree with you (I actually have 100 yd zero) but I doubt it possible to zero my scope with these loads without bottoming out my scope. I'm not talking a few inches off.... I'm saying it's not even hitting the box at throwing distances. The funny part is that it's pretty consistent though. That being said I doubt there is really any solution besides mounting the scope with a couple degree cant to it. If anyone knows if I can buy the mounting hardware for this I would love a link.

[Bert2368]

Something like this?

20 MOA base

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/612726/egw-1-piece-picatinny-style-20-moa-elevated-base-savage-110-through-116-round-rear-long-action-matte

[Roosters]

Burris makes scope rings with inserts that you can change the cant. They are called Burris Signature scope rings. They come with concentric inserts and you buy the offset inserts separately. Here is a link for the rings and another for the inserts form Optics Planet. You can find them at Midway, Amazon and several other places.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/s/Burris+Signature+scope+rings/
http://www.opticsplanet.com/burris-signature-***-align-offset-insert-kits-individual-inserts.html

Hope this helps.

[mehavey]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I've *never* had a 45 moa change in imoact point when going from jacketed to lead (especailly at short ranges.)
In fact, as often-as-not I see a slight *rise* in impact due to the greater effects of bullet 'barrel-time' on muzzle position under recoil.
Am I just lucky -- or is something else at workin the OP's case ?

[ShooterAZ]

This can be a good thing...in my Remington 1903 Springfield the 550 yard "battle sight" is dead on at 100 yards. I just make note of the sight setting and changes I make when using the ladder sight.

[fouronesix]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I've *never* had a 45 moa change in imoact point when going from jacketed to lead (especailly at short ranges.)
In fact, as often-as-not I see a slight *rise* in impact due to the greater effects of bullet 'barrel-time' on muzzle position under recoil.
Am I just lucky -- or is something else at workin the OP's case ?

Out on a limb also- I'll second that. Maybe there's more to the story or something else is affecting POI. I'd guess, like Larry said, barrel harmonics/node maximum but still seems extreme at 40 +/- yards.

[MT Gianni]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I've *never* had a 45 moa change in imoact point when going from jacketed to lead (especailly at short ranges.)
In fact, as often-as-not I see a slight *rise* in impact due to the greater effects of bullet 'barrel-time' on muzzle position under recoil.
Am I just lucky -- or is something else at workin the OP's case ?

My 243 loads require 45 clicks up to group @ 100 yards from the 100 gr jacketed that are 3" high. 1/4 moa clicks that is around 11 1/4 " low. I have a weaver 4x12 and it does that easily.

[avogunner]

I shoot a 1903 in milsurp matches at our club. My match load is a 311299 over a suitable amount of 3031 for about 1700fps. I have to set my ladder to the 650 hash mark to be in the black at 200yds. It's not an issue to me.

[robotman2009]

Thanks for all the help guys. I figured out that when I set my scope to 3x setting on my nikon the bottom ring of the bdc reticule is generally the point of impact for ranges around 50-100 yards without changing any of my scope adjustments. This will actually work pretty well since I still plan on using jacketed bullets for hunting big game still and cast bullets for practice and varmint shooting. This way I will be able to interchange rounds without adjusting the scope. I won't be able to to zoom in really and see my target but for the purpose of developing good shooting fundamentals and just plain having a fun time it is almost ideal.

I think if I do try and change anything at this point it will be to just buy another lee mold but with a lighter bullet. It would be interesting to see what sort of changes I would see going from a 200gr bullet down to maybe a ~150gr bullet.

[mpmarty]

I think if I do try and change anything at this point it will be to just buy another lee mold but with a lighter bullet. It would be interesting to see what sort of changes I would see going from a 200gr bullet down to maybe a ~150gr bullet.
POI will be lower still.

[Tom W.]

All of my cast loads have a lower POI in my '06. I tried once to shoot some cast loads in my .308 and boy howdy did I make some sorry loads. It was more like patterns than groups. I'll stick to 168 gr. A-max with that.
Even though the '06 loads are low, they group amazingly well, and with some holdover I can hit a small piece of 2X4 @ 200 yards.

[popper]

The difference between 1700 and 2400 fps. Crank up the speed of the cast. Or use scope reticle to compensate as you indicated.

[1Shirt]

I agree with Larry G! It is my opinion that if you are going to shoot both cast and jacketed, you just have to understand the reality of vols, and accept the fact that you are going to adjust according to which you are shooting. Don't expect to have cast perform the same as cast even if you are shooting the same charge of powder! It just isn't going to happen.
1Shirt!

[darrowj]

Thanks for this thread folks. This confirms what I have been seeing.

I started casting for 30-06 using a LEE C312-185-1R mold and sized to .311. I used IMR 4189 using 27 Grns and 1.5 Grns of Polly Fill. I shot these out of my 1903A3. I saw groups about 20-24" lower than factory jacketed rounds shot through the same rifle at 100 yards. Set my sights to 500 yards (or 5 on the elevation adjustment). After that sight adjustment I got a nice 2 MOA group off the bench at my POA.

[grouch]

I've had cast bullet loads shoot +/- 2' low at 100yds out of 1917 enfields and SMLE's. The same loads out of a Sprinfield shot about 8" low at 100yds. A friend's 1917 with the baael shortened to 22" shot about 7" low at 100yds. Clearly some other things going on than just the drop due to lower velocity.
Grouch