Black Bullets using patina (Copper sulfate, Nitric Acid, Selenium Dioxide)

[jabilli]

Hey guys,

So my father is into stained glass. While watching work on a project he is currently working on, I saw him spread on some patina (main ingredients are copper sulfate, Nitric Acid, and Selenium Dioxide, see MSDS Sheet here:

http://www.novacan.net/msds/USA/usa_black_patina.htm

from manufacturer's web page-
http://www.novacan.net/index.html

I got to thinking, well, that solder he is putting the glass together with isn't the same alloy, but pretty close to what I make my bullets with. So I tried it on a bullet: It worked.

55784
Note:I simply the patina on a complete cartridge, pretty sure the black around the rim would not be (at least AS) evident if patina'd before assembly.
Few questions and observations-

If I understand how patina works, it essentially emulates long term aging/rusting/oxidizing of metals, often through the use of acids. If a few minute skim through google serves me at all, lead is oxidized differently than copper, though I'm not sure how.

My fears for using patina on bullets are:
1: That Selenium Dioxide ingredient. I imagine it can't be too good for you to breathe in any considerable amount of it. See the toxicity section here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium Also see pictures of more extreme cases of Selenosis here (Heads up, kinda gross.) http://drugline.org/medic/term/selenosis/

2: The patina somehow weakening the brass case. As you can see in the picture I included, some got on the case.

These fears sound or, no that's silly business, patina to color bullets is safe?

[darkroommike]

My fears for using patina on bullets are:
1: That Selenium Dioxide ingredient. I imagine it can't be too good for you to breathe in any considerable amount of it. See the toxicity section here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium Also see pictures of more extreme cases of Selenosis here (Heads up, kinda gross.) http://drugline.org/medic/term/selenosis/

2: The patina somehow weakening the brass case. As you can see in the picture I included, some got on the case.

These fears sound or, no that's silly business, patina to color bullets is safe?

Selenium is toxic like lead is toxic and accumulates in your system in the same way too (other heavy metals, including arsenic have similar toxicities). Using the same precautions you use when handling lead will go a long way towards keeping you safe. Use of patina solutions or pastes should not be an issue if you follow directions and use common sense, in solution selenium dioxide is not as dangerous as the dry powder. Mixing of formulas from raw ingredients, handling selenium metal or dry powdered selenium dioxide are not recommended. Selenium is also used as a brown toner for photographic prints, I have used it safely for years with no issues, it chemically plates onto silver in photo prints in much the same way it coats lead based solders. It came as a liquid solution which was further diluted for use, safe enough if you wore gloves or used tongs, I had a pair of rubber tipped tongs dedicated to toning.

Now as to why you would want to add extra steps to your handloading or "contaminate" your supply of lead, these things I do not know. And someone, sooner or later, will cry wolf if you do this thing.

[montana_charlie]

My fears for using patina on bullets are:
If you have fears, don't do it.
Why would you want to, anyway?

CM

[1bluehorse]

"ah ha", said the lawyer, "tell us again Mr. jabilli why you were making those poisen bullets." :holysheep :kidding::kidding:

[DeanWinchester]

I can do this with a shop rag. I don't know what the heck is going on or what the company washes those shop rags in, but if I use a laundered shop rag to wipe off lube, they will turn a dark grey to light black. I can wipe them down with a clean paper towel and it will not get shiny again. Weird.

[jabilli]

Seeing that coloring bullets with patina doesn't serve any practical purpose, and even potentially adds drawbacks with no beneficial gain- I suppose it best to just drop the idea. :-p

Yeah, I agree with yall in the "Why?" To answer in short, no reason, just curiosity. I saw that he was using pretty much the same alloy and thought, hey that might work. :-p Personally I'm not much for aesthetics- Really a sharpie could do the same thing :-p

What DOES interest me, however, are the posts I've seen about either powdercoating, or spraying on heat resistant enamel/polymer coating of different kinds, that, may or may not to some degree enhance the capabilities of what common cast boolit alloys can do- Yall poke through any of these threads? Interesting IMO- This one here, even IF there is no performance gain, I'd say the OP has made some pretty slick looking bullets- Might make for good boolit jewelry, for those who are into that. :-) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171403-Powder-Coating-Boolits&highlight=black+bullets

[hickfu]

I bet those would go over real well with the black rifle crowd.... :veryconfu



Doc

[Sasquatch-1]

I have worked in stained glass in the past. If you want to use the patina on your bullets do it before you load them. Also once you have used the patina, do not put it back in the bottle it will cantaminate the rest. (You could try storing in a seperate bottle and see what happens the second time you use it.) After treating the bullets wash with soap and water to remove any left over or the lead may start to turn grayish white and could possibly cantaminate your powder.

I little PS. You can get patina that will turn the lead to a copper or brassy color also.

[montana_charlie]

1 little PS. You can get patina that will turn the lead to a copper or brassy color also.
So, a caster who shoots at a range which only allows jacketed bullets could ... uhh ... never mind.

[olafhardt]

Every cold bluing I ever checked contained selenium, so I wear gloves. What scares me more is the nitric acid which I would NEVER contact with any kind of propellent. If I just had to do this, I would use freshly cast unlubed boolits, patina them and rinse well with clean water.