Anneal 38 Special Brass?

[Four-Sixty]

So, I've been reloading .38 Special about two years or so. Some cases I have may have been shot as few as three times, to as many has a dozen times. Some cases were given to me used, so they may have been shot even more than that. I have a few of everything and don't segregate my brass.

I feel that over the last 6 months my groups have been opening up. I have been feeling that I have been getting worse, as a shooter, some days. That is, until a about a month ago.

At the range some boy left behind about 40 pieces of new PPU 38 Special.

I made a batch of one of my loads with just that new brass and wow, my groups tightened up nicely! Same load I've been shooting, but much smaller groups.

Could it be, is it possible, that my brass is work hardened and negatively affecting my accuracy? Would annealing improve the preformance of my boolits?

[Wayne Smith]

Only you can tell. It is certainly possible. Anneal 50 of the oldest and see what happens! I do it in my lead pot.

[cbrick]

And keep your brass segragated. When I get new brass it goes right into an MTM plastic ammo box, that's it home never to be mixed with other brass, not even in the tumbler. I don't reload that box again until it's all been fired and then they all get reloaded again. All of the brass in that box has then been loaded the same number of times. If there is a change in neck tension it'll be pretty much the same for the whole box.

Mixing brass brands and number of reloads & thus neck tension can and will open your groups. If your just plinking it probably wouldn't matter but if your goal is to hit a target & or group it matters and the longer the range your shooting the more it matters.

Rick

[Huntducks]

As cheap as 38 brass is I would just buy a bunch of 1x fired and be done with it.

[williamwaco]

Only you can tell. It is certainly possible. Anneal 50 of the oldest and see what happens! I do it in my lead pot.

I have never annealed a case in 50 years of reloading. I read about the trials and tribulations of annealers and all the machinations they go through to heat the cases to the "correct" temperature. I have always wondered "Why not use your pot?"

How does this work for you?
Any drawbacks?

[MtGun44]

IME, lead sticks to the brass pretty quickly. I use a candle, rotate in fingers until too hot
to hold, a few seconds. This is only done for 7.5 Swiss match ammo, and again, when
groups started opening up and case necks started cracking.

Bill

[willy3]

I don't know anyone who anneals pistol brass.. Let us know if it works for you..

[cbrick]

I don't know anyone who anneals pistol brass.. Let us know if it works for you..

Sure it works, just as well as it does on bottle neck brass. ALL brass is annealed, doesn't matter if you buy new unprimed brass to reload or get it from factory rounds, it was annealed as part of the mfg proccess so of course it works. The question is why bother? There is nothing rare or expensive about 38 Spl brass, it's bout as common as stink on poop and almost the same price. The most logical reason for annealing 38 Spl brass is that the combined science/art of the proccess is both interesting and fun if your the sort that likes to tinker. Annealing must be done correctly though, not enough and you've accomplished nothing, too much and you've ruined the brass so it is a combination of science and art. I found it to take practice on old brass to get it just right.

I have the Ken Light BC-1000 annealer (I even have the 357m shell plate) and it is an outstanding well built machine but it is a rarely used piece of equipment, I use it for case forming wildcat cartridges or rare hard to find brass. 38 Spl? Good practice brass.

Rick

[asp]

Would you anneal the whole case or just the neck area? I would think, like rifle brass, you wouldn't want to anneal the headstamp/base of the case. Sorry if that's a dumb question, but like others, I've never heard of annealing pistol brass and it seems like it would be a lot easier to just dump the lot into an oven and let it go than to handle each case.

[cbrick]

Would you anneal the whole case or just the neck area? I would think, like rifle brass, you wouldn't want to anneal the headstamp/base of the case. Sorry if that's a dumb question, but like others, I've never heard of annealing pistol brass and it seems like it would be a lot easier to just dump the lot into an oven and let it go than to handle each case.

NO NO NO. NEVER heat the brass lower than the bullet seats in the neck. Get it soft down there and you'll get a vocabulary lesson.

The meaning of . . . KaBoom will instantly become clear to you.

That's what I meant in my previous post about must be done correctly, get it too soft in the body and you've ruined it.

Rick

[asp]

Better to ask the stupid question than blow myself up. Thanks!

[Ben]

As cheap as 38 brass is I would just buy a bunch of 1x fired and be done with it.


Ditto....my time is worth more than the cost of the brass.

Ben

[Tazman1602]

Then it wasn't a stupid question, eh?

Art

[rexherring]

I've never seen a big need to do that unless it's for black powder or Trail Boss loads. It will help seal the neck in the chamber and reduces smoking the cases. I have done it with old .45 colt brass just for that type of load. I just treat the neck area by heating with a low flame on my torch while rotating them with a gloved hand and dropping them in water.

[cbrick]

Better to ask the stupid question than blow myself up. Thanks!

Not at all a stupid question. It is far, far better that you asked rather than just try it. The ONLY stupid question is the question that you don't ask.

Here is an article on annealing that will explain it in detail.

Cartridge Case Annealing (http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm)

Rick

[mdi]

I rarely try to dissuade anyone from trying something concerning reloading, as long as it isn't dangerous. If you are truely curious about annealing handgun brass, try it. I'm one of those tinkerers, "what would happen if..." kinda guys and sometimes do something just because. Granted .38 Special brass is prolly next to 9mm P for availability, and really cheap, and won't be worth the time to anneal, but the knowledge gained (and the fun tinkering) may be great for you...

Do it.

[uscra112]

Mixing brass brands and number of reloads & thus neck tension can and will open your groups. If your just plinking it probably wouldn't matter but if your goal is to hit a target & or group it matters and the longer the range your shooting the more it matters.

A big AMEN to that. Took me years to realize it. Now, for accuracy ammo, I gage every resized case with a steel plug gage. If a case is either tight or loose on that plug, it gets segregated for plinking ammo. A case that is loose or tight is that way because the brass is either harder or softer, and didn't respond to the sizing operation like the majority did. Out of 100 once-fired cases, I may get 3 to 10 that get culled. I have yet to try annealing any. Not sure I could get it to the exact same state of anneal for every case.

[cbrick]

I have yet to try annealing any. Not sure I could get it to the exact same state of anneal for every case.

That's beauty of the Ken Light BC-1000, every case gets the same heat for the same length of time. Even so it takes practice with it to get the torches correctly adjusted. There is art to the science of annealing.

Rick

[pdawg_shooter]

Five seconds in 750º lead works great. A dip in motor mice before the lead dip keeps it from sticking. A "full moon" clip I made lets me do 6 at a time. Never tried handgun brass tho. Just load them till the neck splits and then move on.

[brstevns]

I use to anneal my 357 mag brass by standing them in a cast iron frying pan with enough water to cover about 2/3 of the brass. . I then use a small propane torch to heat the tops til a color change then dipped them over into the water. worked for me

[Lief]

Sure it works, just as well as it does on bottle neck brass. ALL brass is annealed, doesn't matter if you buy new unprimed brass to reload or get it from factory rounds, it was annealed as part of the mfg proccess so of course it works. The question is why bother? There is nothing rare or expensive about 38 Spl brass, it's bout as common as stink on poop and almost the same price. The most logical reason for annealing 38 Spl brass is that the combined science/art of the proccess is both interesting and fun if your the sort that likes to tinker. Annealing must be done correctly though, not enough and you've accomplished nothing, too much and you've ruined the brass so it is a combination of science and art. I found it to take practice on old brass to get it just right.

I have the Ken Light BC-1000 annealer (I even have the 357m shell plate) and it is an outstanding well built machine but it is a rarely used piece of equipment, I use it for case forming wildcat cartridges or rare hard to find brass. 38 Spl? Good practice brass.

Rick

I hope this will get to you Rick, I have a BC 1000 also and wish I knew how to find/get a 357 wheel for it. I have a .38 project and my brass is old range brass and the nickel are splitting and I am getting uneven results with the brass cases. I'd like to anneal them to settle that part of the equation. Any thoughts or links would be welcome. Lief

[15meter]

I hope this will get to you Rick, I have a BC 1000 also and wish I knew how to find/get a 357 wheel for it. I have a .38 project and my brass is old range brass and the nickel are splitting and I am getting uneven results with the brass cases. I'd like to anneal them to settle that part of the equation. Any thoughts or links would be welcome. Lief


You're replying to a 9 year old thread, you may not get much response from a guy that doesn't appear to have been on the forum in 5 years.

I can't help you, never having used an annealing machine, you might want to start a new thread asking the same question.

May get more response, and sort of welcome to the forum on your first post.

Hope it's not the last.

[Four-Sixty]

It's amusing seeing an old thread you started come back. I basically sold off all my mixed brass and bought new brass. I keep them together in MTM cases and record the number of times fired. After about a dozen uses, they'll probably get replaced again.

I did bake a couple batches in the oven to try and make them more uniform. I don't remember what temp, or how long, but it was hot! I did not have any case failures after using them. I don't remember a difference in accuracy.

[mdi]

FWIW; I have been reloading 38 Special since 1969 and can't remember any "work hardening". Normal case sizing (Lee dies). Normal flaring (Lee Universal flaring die or stock Lee "powder through" die). IIRC I start seeing splitting after 15 reloadings (not every case as I've had some go to 20+ reloadings, guesstimate). In my 4 revolvers the accuracy is 99.9% my ability as my handloads are way more accurate than I can shoot...

I quit counting reloadings of my 38 Special, 44 Special and 45 Colt several years and hundreds (thousands?) of rounds ago. Just give them a good inspection first step...

[mr surveyor]

since I don't hotrod anything I load, I learned from my old mentor "just shoot 'em til the casemouth splits"


jd

[Lief]

You're replying to a 9 year old thread, you may not get much response from a guy that doesn't appear to have been on the forum in 5 years.

I can't help you, never having used an annealing machine, you might want to start a new thread asking the same question.

May get more response, and sort of welcome to the forum on your first post.

Hope it's not the last.

Thanks 15meter, I'll give that a try. I have a machinist friend and I was thinking of giving him my 16s wheel and asking him to make one that 38/357 would go in. I never thought about annealing .38's after years in icore (stopped in 2012) but I am splitting cases now and they are not hot-rodded. It started with nickel cases and I am getting some splits in brass too. I have tossed all the nickel (about 1/3 of my stock) and I am going to waste some more primers seeing if I can make consistent ammo. It doesn't help I am loading for a 642 Airweight and trying to make 105 power factor consistently. I am using 125gr proj and they have to fly 840fps. If it was easy everyone would do it.

[Baltimoreed]

Never annealed anything in almost 50 years. When they split they get recycled but my rifle and pistol reloads are cas/target velocities not velociraptor loads. But I might do something with my latest build’s ammo, 300Hamr, as I’m using cut down 223/5.56 brass.

[Lief]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I posted a new thread (not out of the moderator's grip yet I guess) and then called my machinist friend. He took about 3 minutes to come up with Brian Crawford's phone number in AZ. I called and he is the guy who made the BC 1000 and other things that Ken sold. He still has some wheels. He is checking to see if he has the one I want. $80 including shipping for one wheel. :D:D:D

[mr surveyor]

you mentioned nickel plated brass.... I have my own opinions about nickel plated brass, but as a "rookie" it may be best to leave it alone .... I'll bet there are some more experienced folks here that can school you on the overall differences between nickel plated brass and just plain nekkid brass


jd

[greenjoytj]

I annealed my 45 Colt Starline brass that I use with black Powder in a M73 that has an over size chamber. I was getting a lot of blow back and annealed cases stopped the blow back in the rifle due to the low operating pressure just like 38 special.
It also stopped blow back in my much tighter chambered Ruger New Vaquero’s.
Did I over anneal? I guarantee I did, too much heat (propane torch’s) and too much time in the flame (till the necks glowed red). Did I harm the cases? Nope. Many subsequent reloading and firing cycles showed a vast improvement in reload-ability, accuracy, cleanliness of the post fired firearm. Even use with smokeless powder was improved.
I will annealed these cases again when they work harden or start to neck split. Starline brass is tough stuff and in low pressure cartridges annealing will help performance.

[zarrinvz24]

Freshly annealed cases can help to ensure consistent bullet release from the case.

[oley55]

I for one do my best to make my components last as long as possible. I'm still reloading Federal 357/44mag brass from the 1980's, and in the last year or so I have been salt bath annealing them. To date I have not annealed 38 spl as I just don't shoot them much, but over the years I have encountered a reoccurring problem where my 38 spl brass becomes oval shaped. Not a big deal unless trying to seat cast bullets without shaving lead. Gently squeezing with plyers to get closer to round is a bit of a PIA.

I've always wondered why my 38spl brass seems to develop this oval memory that sizing does not remove. Many years ago I tossed several hundred military 38spl brass that were too ovaled. I wonder if it's a work hardening thing that annealing might fix. I have been considering salt bath annealing some to see if the oval will then size out, but I do not think my 357 heatsink will work with the shorter 38spl brass. These pics are a couple trashed Lee molds I modified to to hold 357/44mag cases and heatsink/protect the bases.

[whisler]

/\ /\ /\ Ingenius!!!