Casting in the Cold

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Here I cast pretty much all my bullets in the winter. ~ We can't shoot when it is cold and blowing anyway.

The deal is that adding alloy to a hot pot - as heated by a converted turkey-cooker is not safe unless one shuts down the burner when a new ingot is added to the pot.

The reason I know is because one day, casting when it was around 10 degrees I added an ingot and the pot crackled dangerously, not enough to explode but it sent hot lead flying badly enough to spatter my safety glasses ~ there was water in the mix!

I knew the ingot was dry from the pile but that water came from somewhere. I soon figured that just passing the cold ingot through the gasses from the burner allowed water vapor to condense on the cold alloy. Then as the ingot dropped into the hot pot of metal the worst circumstance of all came to pass: Liquid water under the surface of molten lead.

You folks who work in the cold might already know this but even so a reminder could be a good thing.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[DrBill33]

I had the same situation once (or twice or so!) ... The problem most likely is moisture that has accumulated upon the ingots (or whatever shape of your materials to be added). I now stock my ingots (those to be used) immediately next to the heat source. This removes the accumulated moisture, and raises the temp just enough to not cause such a problem. As I add ingots to the pot, I replace them next to the heat source so as to continue the drying/heating process.

[williamwaco]

That is a common occurrence.

I preheat my ingots by laying them on the edge of the pot.
That would not work for you but you might try picking them up with tongs and hold them in the flame for a few seconds.



.

[cbrick]

No matter how dry you think it is a cold ingot WILL have condensed moisture.

I learned this many years ago in the most shocking (and dangerous) way. I kept the ingots on the side of the pot to warm them up, when I finished casting I topped off the pot with these ingots. During the casting session several sprues had fallen on the floor, I scooped them up and dropped them into the pot. I had no idea that I could move that fast, leaping backwards and landing on my head about 10 feet away when I looked up and saw the ceiling, walls, entire bench and me from the knees down covered in lead, it nearly emptied the RCBS 22 pound pot.

I was extremely lucky I wasn't burned but I never did get the lead out of the levi's or shoes. I cleaned up the loading room of course but not completely, I left a bit on the ceiling and front of the bench as a stark reminder to THINK about what your doing and what can happen when you don't.

Yes, a reminder is a very good thing.

Rick

[zuke]

Preheat on the side of the burner.

[sleddman]

All metal will have some moisture in it.... You just have to bring the temp up so the moisture will sweat out before dropping the ingot into the pot. As talked about above just keep the next few ingots near the heat sorce untill needed. If needed, sweat the moisture out of the ingots with a propaine torch first.

[Jon]

Try ladelling out as much as you can before adding another batch. When using my dutch oven, I'll fill it up, skim, cast, let cool for a bit, then refill.

My bottom pour pot is usually pretty forgiving of a little moisture.

[cbrick]

My bottom pour pot is usually pretty forgiving of a little moisture.

Do you understand how much you are risking by believing that? That is a downright scary statement.

Moisture in molten lead has nothing whatever to do with dutch oven or bottom pour. Moisture in molten lead can and will alter your life! Forever!

Rick

[XTR]

My bottom pour pot is usually pretty forgiving of a little moisture.

Just a quick lesson in steam, I spent way to long in the engine room of a submarine. 1cc of water = over 1.5 liters of saturated steam and that doesn't even take into acct the greater volume that of the super heated 700+ degree blast you are making in your pot. Think about instantaneously expanding a 1.5 liter bubble in your pot with as much force as your average rifle load. A little moisture will cover you and everything in the immediate area with 700 degree lead. There may not be anything left in the pot afterwards. Steam will kill, I don't want none.

[btroj]

I don't smelt in sub 50 degree weather for this reason. When I cast in the winter I place ingots on top of the pot to warm up before adding them to the pot.

Visits from the tinsel fairy are not to be taken lightly. The moisture from condensation is worse than a drop of water on top of the melt. The ingot carries the moisture under the lead which pretty well guarantees a bit of excitement.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Thanks for all the comments - it is the time of year for "recurrent training" I think.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Jon]

Maybe I should reword my statement. I've been visited by the tinsel fairy, but not by putting in ingots that have been stored in a dry location. While there may be some moisture on/in the lead from humidity, it hasn't caused any issues for me. Now if you store your lead outside, and bring it in where condensation will happen, I could see that being an issue. My pot will only let me put an ingot in sideways, so any steam can bubble up along the ingot. Sometimes there is a little, but usually it's fine.

I cast outside where if anything it's colder than inside.

Sorry for the confusion.

[cbrick]

Jon, please re-read post #4 in this thread. Those sprues I mentioned were inside on the floor, had never been outside. It was winter and the floor was cold. The handfull of cold sprues had enough moisture in them that it emptied the RCBS pot.

Please be carefull, there is no such thing as "My bottom pour pot is usually pretty forgiving of a little moisture" as you stated. NO molten lead is in the slightest forgiving of moisture, even in very small amounts.

Rick

[craig61a]

Definately something to keep in mind - I haven't cast in cold weather yet but my shed is not heated so I'll remember to keep an eye on my ingots...

[Jon]

I'm glad you didn't get hurt with your adventure with the tinsel fairy.

Maybe I should start setting ingots on the top to pre-heat a bit before adding to the pot.

Lately, it's been too wet to cast much. The weekends have been pretty hit or miss to be out there casting.

[a.squibload]

My pot is round, top of stand is triangular, just enough room to stack a few
ingots next to the pot (near the burner) to warm 'em up.

When smelting don't forget the ingot molds, I run over 'em with a torch
to drive off moisture. Might not be necessary but makes me feel better!

[.22-10-45]

I too try to do most casting in the cooler..sometimes colder! months in unheated garage. I have an old cast-iron ladel I use when pouring ingots. I always am amazed at how much water comes out of that iron and gathers up on surface when I pre-heat with propane torch..even if the outside temp. isn't that cold. I always pre-heat cast-iron ingot moulds too..learned the hard way! With all that moisture in there it's a wonder the stuff just doesn't rust away!

[Mal Paso]

There is Hydrogen in Propane and Water is Created during combustion.

Propane engine exhausts drip water.

[FAsmus]

22-10-45:

The water you see collecting on your iron tools didn't come from inside the metal! It comes from the flame of your propane torch!

Always remember that water (in the form of vapor) is a product of combustion - it'll condense on anything cool.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[**oneshot**]

I use a hotplate setup under my camp stove to heat ingots that will go in the pot.

[Springfield]

Maybe I am wrong but I believe there was no moisture IN my ingots when I poured them. Any moisture on them will be removed by pre-heating them first. I like to cast 2-3000 bullets in a sitting and I sure can't do that efficiently if I shut down the pot every time I add an ingot. I DO store some of my ingots outside, many others on the concrete floor of my unheated shop. I have NEVER had a tinsel fairy problem with any of them if preheated. As near as I can tell any moisture that can soak into an ingot will also be released with preheating. Now smelting is a different animal, sometimes I get some serious bubbling when adding scrap, that's what the pot cover is for. I also have tossed a live primer into my casting pot when adding scrap from the floor. BANG! but very little lead spray. I now reload in a different area from casting, but still check floor scraps VERY carefully.

[mold maker]

It can't be stated often, or loud enough, If you haven't had a visit from the tinsil fairy, you have just been lucky. She will come to see you when she gets ready. If your careless she will know. Taking any undue chances will guarantee it will be sooner than later.
Adding any cold metal to a hot pot is taking that chance. If you use flame of any source for heat, the warm air around the pot contains lots of moisture. It is just waiting on a cool metalic object (an ingot, or your cold ladle) to condinse on like a glass if tea in the Summer. If either are plunged below the surface, it will become steam and can blast you pot empty.
Those of us who have experienced this event aren't blowing smoke. We're only allowing the rest of you to avoid adding it to to your "I've done that list". More than one of us have been seriously burned. Some of us have lost our vision. Many have gotten infections as a result.
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but of all the info given, making sure you understand, and it doesn't happen to you, is most important.

[Alan in Vermont]

22-10-45:

The water you see collecting on your iron tools didn't come from inside the metal! It comes from the flame of your propane torch!

Always remember that water (in the form of vapor) is a product of combustion - it'll condense on anything cool.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest, you are right on the money with your comments. When I was smelting last month, 40° temps, so I was heating my angle iron ingot molds with one of the big "weed burner" propane torches prior to filling them. As soon as the flame touched the steel the vapor condensed into visible water. Further heating raised the temp. of the metal and the water would evaporate until the mold was dry. I wasn't heating to get rid of water, I just wanted the mold hot enough so that the ingots could fill completely without turning to mush around the edges as the lead cooled too rapidly.

I used to see the same effect when pre-heating(with oxy/aceteylene, a weld zone in cold weather, there would be instant water on the cold steel until the heated area was hot enough to evaporate it.

I cast in a moderately heated shed using either propane or kerosene forced air heaters. Being unvented they put a huge slug of water vapor into the air. If I bring ingots in from the cold, sometimes down near 0°, storage part of the shed they will immediately dew up. This year I have the luxury of a hot plate to set them on until they go in the pot. Double benefit to that, they get plenty hot enough to dry out and don't take as long to come up to casting temp.

[.22-10-45]

That makes sense Forest. Thanks!

[Giggidy]

Good info. Glad I read it as I'm planning on losing my casting virginity on the 25th or 26th. Possible disaster avoided.

[Any Cal.]

I was getting lax about water in the lead, and dropped an ingot that had a drop or two of water on it into the pot. It was at that point that I recieved instant knowledge, along with a visit from the tinsel fairy... It seemed like lead started blowing out of the pot almost before the ingot hit, and raining down all over the work area. It was an amazing amount of force from just a drop or two of water. I tend to be much more careful now...

[xrae21]

I had the same problem. So I took our old toaster oven set the temp around 250 and stick my ingots in it for 20 min or so before they go in the lead pot. It holds more than enough to keep a steady supply for casting.

[CJSHELBY]

Please feel free to preach all you want. Some of the choir members are rookies. I prefer to learn from others experiences. I am sitting here recovering from my 1st ever ER visit (woodworking accident) in 46yrs. I will begin my 1st ever round of smelting & casing soon. I will be using a double burner (1000W&500W) electric hotplate in a semi heated (wood stove) garage. I figured this was on the safer side of many options. I plan to use one side to melt & the other to preheat my molds. I have plenty of PPE as I will be using my welding bench & my normal welding attire of gloves,hat,apron,glasses, jeans,boots. Am I missing anything? What about a cross draft fan for fumes?

[DLCTEX]

A plant I worked in tinned wire before insulating it and during a bout of extreme cold (-14*) the operator had brought in some pigs of tin and let them warm for a few hours before dropping one into the vat of molten tin. Largest tinsel Fairy I ever hope to see happened. I have cast in the past few days in the cold. Even though my reloading room is heated when I turn on the heat, the ingots are still cold for a long time. I preheat on a hotplate before adding to the pot.