Looking for some possible advice about an in-line

[BCall]

I know a lot of you muzzleloader fans prefer traditional style arms, but I started with an inline and have been shooting them more lately. I have 2 CVA Optima Elite rifles, one in .45 and one in .50, and have enjoyed shooting them. I don't have any desire to go to traditional muzzleloaders, but I do have an interest in other calibers.

I recently bought 2 other barrels for my guns. One I am working on getting a liner made and turning it into a 32 caliber slug gun after reading about another member here doing the same type of thing. One of the barrels has a badly rusted bore, and I would very much like to have it rebored to a larger caliber. Keep in mind that this frame is a centerfire rifle as well, and I would like to have a barrel in .58 caliber. The rusted barrel is a 50 cal, and is 29" long, 1" in diameter at the breech and .85" at the muzzle. Would it be safe to rebore to .58? Is there a gunsmith who will rebore an inline barrel to .58? The 50 will really do more than I need, but I still would love to have a 58. Especially since I am casting .58 slugs for use in a 20 gauge rifled shotgun.

My other question is concerning a 12 gauge muzzleloader barrel that I have for the same CVA. I can't seem to find any load information, and can't seem to find anyone who has used one much. To date I have only shot 1oz square loads in it, but would like to work up a 1.5oz load for turkeys this spring. I bought the Lyman black powder manual and it lists some 1.5 oz loads, but when I called CVA, all they would say was "We don't recommend anything over 1.25oz." When I asked if that was a max load, they only said we don't recommend anything else.

But according to Lyman's manual, the 1.5oz load with 100gr of Goex FF only generated 5000 psi. This does not seem excessive to me for a gun that can handle 150 gr loads in a 50 cal barrel, 300 Win mag centerfire ammo, and 3" 12 gauge smokeless loads. The barrel is made by Bergara, 26" long, and 1" at the breech tapering to .960 at the muzzle. The barrel is well made and thicker than most modern smokeless shotgun barrels. It feels like it should be safe with a slightly bigger load. Am I just thinking about this wrong? It just seems to me that if this same gun can handle modern 3" smokeless loads with a barrel that is basically the same size, it should be able to handle some magnum type blackpowder loads. Are Lyman's PSI calculations accurate? I know many of you do not mess with in-lines, but anyone have any thoughts or advice? Thanks, Billy

[RhodeHunter]

Have you read the second sticky in this forum, the Muzzloloading Shotgun? It talks about loads. Maybe not max loads, I don't remember, but it may help you.

[DIRT Farmer]

#1 rule, if the manufactor says 1 1/4 oz loads, I am not going to tell you that it is safe to go higher. I hunt turkeys with a 11 ga Brown Bess flintlock, cylinder bore and 1 1/8 oz loads and have over 20 turkeys with it. There is no reason to load so heavy, just work up a good load and pattern it to see what you get. Varying the wads, powder under the shot you should get close to what would be a modified pattern in a modern gun. Load # 6s and set the powder mesure with less powder than the volume of shot. It takes time to find the load and can only be found for your gun by shooting your gun.

[HARRYMPOPE]

Bill i have a .58 caliber pig for your 20- ga shotgun.its a Lyman 57533 I had Erik make an inset bar plug for.I had it done shallower than the original and it goes about 630g.it casts at about .581 and is too big for my 577 Muskets.

its the one on the left next to the tiny 577 585 g Parker Hale bullet

55480

[FL-Flinter]

I don't have any desire to go to traditional muzzleloaders, Thanks, Billy

Billy,
That's because you haven't tried an underhammer yet. :wink:

Dirt Farmer is very much correct on the shotgun loading, you don't need "heavy" loads and in most cases all heavy loads do is lower the velocity, decrease energy, increase recoil and waste powder & shot. I shoot anywhere from 3/4oz to 1-1/8oz in the 12ga both ML & cartridge, some depends on the game, some depends what the individual gun wants to perform best but most common is 7/8oz & 1oz. It doesn't matter how many pellets you throw, what matters is how many pellets consistently place correctly in the pattern and how hard they hit when they get there. You have to get a system where you change only one things at a time and see what affect it has on the performance, once you have a database built, then you can begin fine-tuning the load to its optimum performance.
Mark

[BCall]

HMP - I've only seen one of those big molds before, thought about buying it and decided I didn't need anything that big! I've been using a Lee "modern" minie and a 315 gr Lyman so far. Not quite as accurate as I want, but I'm still working on them.


I'll probably stick with 1.25oz loads for the 12ga. Might try to get more adventurous sometime in the future. I'm sure I could bag a turkey with lighter loads, but I just feel more confident with a heavier load. I use 1.5oz loads in my Mossberg currently and don't feel the need to go higher, but I do like the 1.5oz loads I use. I hope to have something good worked up by spring turkey season.

FL-Flinter - I would try an underhammer if I could find one in .32 that didn't cost me too much. All of the ones I have seen have been $800+ and I'm simply not willing to spend that much. The side locks just don't interest me though.

[FL-Flinter]

FL-Flinter - I would try an underhammer if I could find one in .32 that didn't cost me too much. All of the ones I have seen have been $800+ and I'm simply not willing to spend that much.

Interesting ... So let's see here, by your accounts the $800 minus the minimum $650 in materials costs leaves $150 to cover the 90+ man-hours, tooling, shop expenses and taxes ... are you willing to work for less than $0.75 per hour? Part two of the question is, are you willing to invest many thousands of dollars into purchased tooling; many thousands of hours over decades learning to be a machinist, chemist, woodworker, blacksmith, gunsmith, metallurgist and a tool & die maker just so you can then make all the tooling that can't be purchased because it's unique to your trade ... and then be able to bring all those skills & trades together to combine them with your study of human physiology to design and manufacture a gun that looks pleasing, functions correctly and flawlessly interacts with the human body especially when designing to those characteristics unique to a particular individual client.

So how about a fair trade - You buy the materials and do 90 hours of work at my house and in exchange I'll put the gun together for you. Labor for labor trade, that's a fair enough deal is it not?

[BCall]

Go ahead flinter, insult me. I did not say that they were not worth the cost. I said I was not willing to spend that much. I would also like to own a Win 1873 in 32-20 and a Win Hi-wall with double set triggers, but as they both seem to run over $1000 for reproductions, I simply am not willing to spend that much. So take your attitude and get off your high horse.

[waksupi]

I don't think any insult was intended. I understand the point, as I have experienced that mentality many times over the years. Someone comes to me and wants a custom item, expecting me to be cheaper than Walmart. I usually work below the standard shop rate, and for less than what people earn who want things. I would be quite happy to do the work for equivilent hourly wage of most people. But as was said, people want to pay me 75 cents an hour for my skilled trade.

[BCall]

Sorry, but it was insulting. I came here asking about my inexpensive mass produced in-line, he made a comment about an under hammer, I replied that I was not willing to pay for one because of the cost. Maybe I misspoke a bit when I said "if I could find one", which could mean I was actively searching for one which isn't the case. I should have said "there isn't one", which would imply more to the fact that I had never seen one for less. I made absolutely no comment about the cost being too much for anyone but ME. I know how the world works and I know that skilled craftsmen make far too little in many instances, but I wasn't talking about that, I said the cost was too much for ME and I got it thrown back in my face twice now. Sorry, but that is insulting.

I shoot cheap guns. Most of my milsurps cost me less than $150. My CVA is a cheap gun. I have never paid more than $600 for a gun, and only two ever topped $450. I could find a way to afford one if I wanted, but I do not. I made a statement about ME, and have now basically been told twice that I was wrong.

I am pretty open person when it comes to guns. I get tired of people saying how certain things should not be allowed. I am not willing to spend $1000 on a custom muzzleloader. If you are, I say go for it, but don't insult me just because I am unwilling to spend that much. I see no reason to spend $3000 on a shotgun or $1200 on a Colt SAA, but many people are or they wouldn't make them. When it comes to the shooting sports I always say that if you want it and can afford it, I say go for it. I really don't care what it is or how much it costs, if it makes you happy do it, and I don't begrudge them for it.

I understand the point, but it had nothing to do with my statement and was insulting to post it in that way.

[jonas302]

Insult was most certainly intended I even felt insulted as an inline shooter the OP very clearly stated what his desires were just because something costs a certain amount to build doesn't mean the rest of us give a hoot

[Mooseman]

I dont see an Insult either , but I see the facts thrown into the discussion.
The Underhammer comment has a smiley after it, so it was kinda said tongue in cheek.
As far as going a higher load than what CVA says is max, the reason is the type of steel used in the barrel and what pressures it will stand over a length of time before it weakens. It has nothing to do with the receiver in this case, just the barrel. It can be thicker yes, but milder steel than a modern shotgun barrel. My muzzleloaders all have thicker barrels , yet will blow apart with smokeless powder because of the pressure that can be generated that that steel will not handle.
As far as re-boring a bad barrel, be ready to pay 200 to 500 bucks to have that done and only the Best barrel machinist would be able to tell if it would be safe when he inspects and measures it.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I can see how you took it that way Bill.

I want a 289 Shelby Cobra but i'm not willing to spend that much.(this is NOT ofrfensive)

Or......

Why would someone pay six figures for a piece of **** 1/2 American 1/2 English car when i can buy a modern replica that is better for $50,000.(now this is offensive)

George

[waksupi]

Some here apparently don't understand how topics can wander on this forum.

[FL-Flinter]

Billy,
There was absolutely no intent for my reply to be insulting - it was just a matter of explaining why an American made gun built with quality American made/sourced materials does not come with the same price tag that a mass-produced imported product made from foreign materials supplied by the lowest foreign bidder and unskilled foreign labor does. One more little bit of FYI, a good quality but plain American handmade underhammer was selling for $260 in 1959. A little comparison of prices from 1959 to 2012 to offer some context...

Loaf of bread cost $0.20 in 1959, inflation calculator shows $1.59 in 2012 but the actual cost is $2.79+
Well-equipped sedan cost $2400 in 1959, inflation calculator shows $19,000 in 2012 but the actual cost is $33,000+
Pound of butter cost $0.23 in 1959, inflation calculator shows $1.83 in 2012 but the actual cost is $2.98
Theater movie ticket cost $0.20 in 1959, inflation calculator shows $1.59 in 2012 but the actual cost is $8.12
A bottle of pop from the machine cost $0.05 in 1959, inflation calculator shows $0.40 in 2012 but the actual cost is $1+
A sandwich meal platter & drink cost $0.35 in 1959, inflation calculator shows $2.78 in 2012 but the actual cost is over $5 for the sandwich alone.

Now, accounting for inflation the same $260 gun in 1959 should be selling for $2067 according to the inflation calculator but adjusting for the difference between the calculated and real cost of other items, the same gun ought to cost around $3,500 just to keep pace with everything else.

[rpervin]

If I was making 75 cents an hour I wouldn't be mad at everybody else. I would just own up to my own mistake in choosing my profession.
I sense a huge chip on this dudes shoulder. Don't take it personally, he is just really mad at himself for not taking up brain surgery or something like that for a profession.

[FL-Flinter]

If I was making 75 cents an hour I wouldn't be mad at everybody else. I would just own up to my own mistake in choosing my profession.
I sense a huge chip on this dudes shoulder. Don't take it personally, he is just really mad at himself for not taking up brain surgery or something like that for a profession.

There's no chip on this "dude's" shoulder. I made a tounge-in-cheek comment to which Billy adamantly stated he's not going to pay "that much". I merely explained why the costs are what they are and obviously some have a problem accepting the truth that handmade American guns are an exceptional value for the buyer because the prices have not kept pace with inflation.

Now, about your assumptions, "dude" ... First off, I truly enjoy my work because considering that handmade guns built centuries ago are not only still around but they're still revered for their value and admired for the workmanship. How many people are so blessed as I knowing that what I build today could very well still be both valuable and usable a dozen or more generations from now just as we today admire and value the handmade guns built more than a dozen generations before us?

And secondly, not that it's any of your business, let's correct your assumptions. I chose to take my gun work from part-time to my primary profession when I became physically disabled in 2005 and the social-political discrimination against people with disabilities prevented me from being able to continue full-time in my primary career of designing and manufacturing custom industrial machinery. Instead of sitting around leaching off the taxpayers and whining about how unfair life is, I chose to continue working and paying taxes despite my physical limitations and constant pain. I'm still working on other entrepreneurial projects in addition to actively fighting the discrimination against disabled people who choose not to become victims of social-political assumptions born of ignorance and apathy. So what you're sensing "dude" is not a chip, it's "patriotism". Patriotism resulting from having witnessed the mass destruction of American industry and jobs because of those people who are more inclined to buy cheap foreign-made junk rather than invest in quality American-made products built by the very same Americans who buy the products and services that generate the wealth they're sending overseas. Patriotism resulting from actually believing in the American exceptionalism that built this nation into the greatest nation in the world because the people pursued goals and ideals way beyond themselves while actively supporting the friends and neighbors who supported them. Why don't you try "sensing" how I felt having to look 153 dedicated hard-working Americans in the eye and tell them they no longer had a job because their friends and neighbors chose to buy cheap inferior products made by slave labor in communist China. Why don't you try sensing what this country is going to be like for your children and grandchildren when all the American industry, jobs and means of wealth-generation have been outsourced to foreign lands. Don't be so quick to cast stones if you don't want to be cleaning up a lot of broken glass.
Mark