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burr7870
06-21-2007, 10:15 AM
I have been casting handgun boolits for couple of years with success & enjoyment. Decided to try rifle bullets. For my handgun boolits I use LLA. I do not have lubricating sizer I only use the Lee sizer & pan lube. Is the LLA satisfactory with full-bore 45-70 loads @ 2000 fps, only plinker loads (@1200 fps)or none of the above? Is there another way to lube these bullets without a lubricating sizer?

I plan to size (in a Lee sizer) the Lee 405 gr hollow base boolits from water quenched ww alloy.

I am not looking for high volume production just an economical way to cast a couple hundred boolits a year for the rifle.

Thanks

Dr. A
06-21-2007, 10:39 AM
The sizer and LLA are just fine for higher velocity boolets. I don't think your bullet will shoot accurately at that velocity. Over 1500fps, I generally will use a gas checked version of some 405gr. RCBS makes one that does quite well. Ranch Dog Molds is selling 350gr. and 420gr. that would be suitable. Also, depending on the 45-70 you are using, you will need to pay close attention to the diameter you are sizing too. I have a marlin, H&R, and Ruger, and sizing to .460 works well for all. The .457 sizer for Lee is not going to work adequately for them. If you cast your boolet softer, it may take up the slack with the sizer. You may just have better luck not sizing the boolet depending on its diameter. I had Lee custom make my sizer to .460. I believe Ranch Dog Molds will supply you with one.

Bullshop
06-21-2007, 12:16 PM
If you are going for 2000fps you are looking at the wrong boolit. That HB is intended for just the oposite of everything you are doing. It is ment for very soft alloy or even pure lead at low pressure and moderate (BP) velocity.
I know this responce does nothing to answer your question but felt I should offer a warning to save you some grief. If you have a fairly high pressure launch platform and you want 2000 fps try something like the RCBS 325 FNGC. You will be able to safely get to your goal even in a Marlin. If you have something in the Ruger #1 or Siamese mauser class you can do it with the RCBS 425 FNGC too. If you follow the cource your on I would predict at some point you will wish you had headed this advice.
BIC/BS

lar45
06-21-2007, 12:55 PM
You should be able to warm most lubes in your hand and smear on with a finger. If you need to, you can then run them up through the Lee sizer.

jonk
06-21-2007, 02:09 PM
Pan lubing is an option. Melt some lube in a tin- I use a paint stripper gun and a cat food can- and set the bullets in it so the lube is deep enough to cover the grooves. Let set to a warm, putty like hardness, then remove. To remove, I use a 'cookie cutter', in your case a spent 45/70 shell with the head cut off would do fine. Then just run through your lee sizer. Or not, you might want to shoot them as cast.

leftiye
06-21-2007, 09:13 PM
Plus 1 vote for what Dr. A, and Bullshop said. That boolit don't like high pressure. You'll need high pressure to get to 2000 fps. It will blow the skirts out, and ruin your accuracy, probly lead too (what else could you ask for?). Plus 1 more vote for an at least medium hard boolit, and a gas check. Pan lubing is as good as any other method, but not all lubes are equal and there are better lubes than LLA.

burr7870
06-22-2007, 08:17 AM
Thanks for the all of the tips & advice. I will take all of this into account before proceeding. You guys saved me a lot of trial & error time. :-D

Leftoverdj
06-22-2007, 12:55 PM
Cutoff .45-70 cases do not work as cookie cutters. Too much internal taper. A fired .460 Weatherby case would, if you could come up with such a rare beast. I ran a 15/32 drill bit through some scrap aluminum pipe to make my cookiecutter. It's a little oversized, but works well enough.

catboat
06-22-2007, 01:17 PM
You'll like that Lee .458-400 grain hollow base bullet. It is accurate and versatile.

You can load it with 13 grains of Unique, and have a MV ~ 1100+fps (simulates the old blackpowder load). Or, to be different, buy a Lee sizing die (~$18) in .452 or .451". Run the .458 " bullet through the sizing die. Put a double wrap of 0.002" thick paper patch around it, snip off the tail or tuck the extra in the hollow base, and you can get a max load out of that bullet with excellent accuracy. If you load with pure lead, you will have one heck of a mushrooming bullet for deer hunting.

That is an overlooked bullet mould. Smart choice.

Bullshop
06-22-2007, 01:59 PM
You'll like that Lee .458-400 grain hollow base bullet. It is accurate and versatile.

You can load it with 13 grains of Unique, and have a MV ~ 1100+fps (simulates the old blackpowder load). Or, to be different, buy a Lee sizing die (~$18) in .452 or .451". Run the .458 " bullet through the sizing die. Put a double wrap of 0.002" thick paper patch around it, snip off the tail or tuck the extra in the hollow base, and you can get a max load out of that bullet with excellent accuracy. If you load with pure lead, you will have one heck of a mushrooming bullet for deer hunting.

That is an overlooked bullet mould. Smart choice.
Catboat
When you say max load what do you mean? What is your max load with accuracy with that boolit? What alloy? Are you just assuming or have you actualy shot that boolit to 2000 fps with good results? I just didnt think it could be done, and still skepticle. I just cant see that HB in pure lead holding up to the pressure required to get it to 2000 fps. If you look at the Lyman reloading handbook #46 on page 46 you will see some photo's showing what happens to a hollow base when its pressure limit is exceeded. It may be possible as the lee boolit has a rather shallow HB and the skirts are on the heavy side, and with the right alloy who knows? If you have done it I sure would like to hear about it.
BIC/BS

catboat
06-22-2007, 02:27 PM
51 / 3031 , Have loaded with with pure WW and pure lead.

Marlin 1895 with ballard rifling, 22" bbl. Sub 2 MOA.

Don't have a chrony. I'm guessing 1700 fps? It may not be MAX max load, but it is certainly stout. When I have gone to Elmer's load of 53/3031 with a 400ish grain J-bullet, the lever gets sticky, so I reduced the load to 51/3031. I might be able to bump it up another grain, but for what purpose? It works well at this loading (and I feel it's safe-no sticky lever or signs of case head expansion).

I never claimed it shot 2000 fps-I don't know where you got that number.

Paper patched bullets are not in the same league as gas checked bullets. The soft lead is protected by the paper. If you can get a copy, you'd enjoy the book "The Paper Jacket" by Paul Mathews.

And yes, this bullet has a thick skirt, which is probably why it works. It is why I selected it, after looking at some "real" cupped base paper patch bullet designs, I saw this mould and asked myself "Why not give it a go?". I emailed Lee Precision and asked their input, and they replied "I don't see why not, the large lube grooves should size down pretty easily." They were right.

I was prepared to remove the bottom floating alumimun "hollow base plug" and turn it down smaller to make the skirts even thicker. Didn't need to.

Freightman
06-22-2007, 04:24 PM
Make the 405 HB boolits a little softer and wrap them with teflon tape works well for me. Give the HB a chance to do what it is designed to do, expand to seal the bore and grip the lands. I also use LLA no problems but I only go to about 1500FPS haven't tried 2000 fps (sholder said no way)