Old question, hopefully, new answers ........

[HiVelocity]

Folks, I know this has been asked over and over somewhere, but I have an on-going argument with some of my breakfast buddies.

Answer me this, "Can you accurately drive a gas-checked cast bullet to jacketed bullet velocities?" I told them all, "Yes, without question." What do my casting audience say?

(I will print out your answers for them to ponder...........lol!)

Thanks,

HV

[cbrick]

Depends on the caliber. Many calibers yes, absolutely. Others it would be pretty doubtful, as an example I wouldn't even want to try to match light bullet velocities in a 22-250 or such. Most all handgun cartridges sure, I do it all the time. Much of my handgun loads are simply book loads for jacketed and since cast goes through the bore with less resistance than jacketed it's very possible to exceed listed jacketed velocities.

Rick

[ROGER4314]

I have extensive experience with gas checked bullets and like them because they're less apt to lead. Honestly, if I was going to push a slug that fast, I wouldn't use a cast bullet. I would go with a jacketed bullet and depending on the caliber and if it was fast enough, use one that is designed to expand. I just don't use cast bullets for that application.

I use cast projectiles for low to medium velocity loads. The exception was when I shot a lot of silhouettes with .44 magnum. I used a 240 grain gas check lead slug with a rounded shape and a flat nose. They would smack the big steel animals and knock them over reliably.

Flash

[waksupi]

You can push cast over 3000 fps. with good accuracy. But you need to have taken the post-graduate course to do it.

[1Shirt]

Waksupi, Am interested in that Post Grad course. Highest I have ever run cast was about 2400, and was satisfied with that out of an O6, w/o leading. So your Post Gard course does peak my interest just to play around with it. Would be most interested in seeing an accurate 60gr. cast out of a 223 or 22-250 at something approaching 2900-3000fps w/o leading and reasonably accurate. Would extend the killing range for p-dogs appreciably.
1Shirt!

[gon2shoot]

You can push cast over 3000 fps. with good accuracy. But you need to have taken the post-graduate course to do it.

over 3000 yes, but my accuracy wasn't there. Maybe I need the course.

[runfiverun]

you can push them as fast as you want without leading.
it's the accuracy that suffers.
i have been well over 2700 in my 22 calibers and in the 2400+ range with the 30 calibers.
and in the 2400 range with my 358 winchester and have natched or beat jaxketed accuracy.
other calibers still need work.
fit,fit,fit,powder speed,reloading technique,alloy,case to chamber fit,and lube.
make those all good and you can get away with a lot of velocity...

[Larry Gibson]

Whether you can or not depends on your definition of "accurately" is, the cartridge used (specifically rifle or handgun), the cast bullet used, the twist of the rifling and what the "velocity" the jacketed bullets are pushed to.

Larry Gibson

[turmech]

Gas checks, heck I shoot 44 mag, 45 colt, 45 acp and 357 mag in handguns with same loads and accuracy as jacketed with plain base.

In 444 and 30-30 same as jacketed with GC. Others like 30-06 308 not as fast as jacketed. some like 243 and 7 mm mag I don't even try cast in (not yet anyways) Like others said depends on caliber

[badgeredd]

Alloy,alloy, alloy. If one has a good alloy he will be able to get into the high 2000s to 3000 fps (and likely somewhat higher although I can't say I have done it ...yet) with cast boolits with very good accuracy, I believe it is easier the smaller the caliber, but that my opinion. I doubt one can push boolits to the extreme velocities of some jacketed bullet loads mainly because a jacket is a support for its softer lead core, but I can be very wrong. Of this much I am sure, Larry's RPM theory for a three element alloy may not completely apply to a four element alloy. The better one contols his castings, the more accurate one has potentially. Edd

[Harter66]

I've a 32 Remington that I've exceeded maximum jacketed velocities with charges less than starting loads for jacketed w/o a gas check. I've met equal velocities in a 7x57 ........is paper patched cheating ? 45 Colts will run right up to 1200 fps w/o checks . 9mm/38/357 rifles or pistols are easy w/w/o checks. Heavy weight Boolits in 30 cals its not hard to find a happy place usually somewhere in the middle range.

[badgeredd]

The more I read and re-read the OP, I have to ask...are you asking about ALL cartridges or handgun cartridges?

Edd

[PS Paul]

I suppose we can arm the OP with info for both handgun and rifle cartridges in cast boolits......
Handguns: I shoot 158 gr. plain base boolits in .357 mag over 1,250 fps. every time out. .45 colt: 250 gr. plain base boolits over 1,200 with select BH loads. both with accuracy and virtually zero leading. My high-speed rifle with cast is limited to .458 win mag over 2,200 fps. with....... no leading as well.

Show this to your friends who are "non-believers" and hopefully they can start to understand these truths that are now self-evident!!
Paul

[geargnasher]

Folks, I know this has been asked over and over somewhere, but I have an on-going argument with some of my breakfast buddies.

Answer me this, "Can you accurately drive a gas-checked cast bullet to jacketed bullet velocities?" I told them all, "Yes, without question." What do my casting audience say?

(I will print out your answers for them to ponder...........lol!)

Thanks,

HV

To argue this as a general point may give you and your buddies something to do, but nobody is going to "win" because the final answer is "it depends". It depends on the pressure/velocity potential of the gun, the skill and knowledge fund of the caster/handloader, expansion ratio of the cartridge in question, twist rate, and a whole bunch of other stuff. There is a huge difference between a .300 RUM and a .30-30 Winchester, for example. Most anyone, with standard dies and no special techniques, can take the latter to the limit of the cartridge with accuracy equal to factory jacketed loads. With some care, cast can often be made to shoot MORE accurately at the same velocity as jacketed in many rifle calibers in off-the-shelf sporting guns. Not going to happen with the RUM, though, even the toughest lead alloys just can't handle that much force without accuracy-destroying damage unless you paper-patch them. A good paper-patch job will remove any disadvantage a cast boolit might have against it's copper-jacketed counterparts.

That being said, some cast boolit shooters, of the aforementioned post-graduate school of cast boolit loading, can and do shoot cast boolits in some of the more "challenging" calibers with accuracy, repeatability, and velocity that is difficult for many to believe. In many instances doing this is fairly simple, but learning how is extremely difficult and few have the disposition required to follow through to success, and as Larry Gibson mentioned, you first need to define your expectations (are you talking about 1/2 MOA at 300 yards or more like 2 MOA at 100 yards, or a 7x57 Mauser versus a 7mm STW, for example) for the purpose of the discussion.

Gear

[geargnasher]

I'll reiterate what Runfiverun said: With regard to a cast boolit load that is well-assembled from proper components working in harmony, leading isn't the problem, even at extremely high velocity, accuracy is the problem. If you're getting leading at 2600 fps in a .308 you are doing something very wrong. Do one thing even slightly wrong at that speed, though, and you'll be lucky to hit the berm.

Gear

[williamwaco]

It depends.

You all know the dependencies so I will not bloody my fingertips by repeating them.

[HiVelocity]

Wow guys,

All good information. For the record, I cast alot of cast, primarily, for my 30 caliber rifles. 30-06 03' Springfield, 308 Ruger 77, 2 levergun 30-30's, and one T/C 30-30 14" Contender. I have: NOE 311-155-FN, Ranch Dog 311-165gr and 170gr molds, Lyman 311332, and NOE 311365, ALL GC designs. Plus I'm on 2 GB's for two others......... whew! My alloy is clip-on wheel weights with some linotype (10/1), some air cooled, some water quenched. I just replaced the scope on my 03' Springfield and will start testing some of these loads; I'm hoping that the new Shepherd P-3 scope will make it all happen.

Historically, I'm not into "hot-loading" my rifle loads, I start somewhere around a starting load. I also do this wilth my 45 Colt handloads for 2 Model 92' Rossi leverguns. I have 5 .452 molds and only 1 is of gas check design.

All things considered, you all have answered my question. Thanks! A world of knowledge here! Thumbs up to you all. Happy casting and shooting!

HV

[runfiverun]

those leverguns don't need a gas check.
if you have a bunch of different powders and a chronograph.
you can have some fun teaching a new reloader how things work by doing a load work-up from your fastest powder through your slowest powder [jumping along of course]
move some 250 gr rnfp boolits along from 900 fps up through 1800 fps.
shoot the same target the whole time. [50 yds will do,100 is better]
it's a good learning exercise.

[OnHoPr]

Since I've been shooting cast really for only about three years now and intermittently at that I can only give a partially experienced opinion. If the cartridge and action are of 40K psi area and lower then yes the cast boolit can equal and exceed the jacketed for both areas inquired about. Once you have acquired your GED or HSD and are beginning your associates degree in CB. For the actual game performance I am finding out that you need to know your alloys and metallurgical compositions. I have x-ray room Pb and roof sheeting Pb and old WWs, also I acquired a couple of five gallon buckets newer WW's, possibly with a few zinc ones in there. So, only more experience and research will help to make my boolits more consistent. I assume past the 40K psi thresh hold is where you need the post graduate knowledge.

[HiVelocity]

if you have a bunch of different powders and a chronograph.

runfiverun-

I''m really fortunate that the friend I handload with has a reloading room inside his business hidden from public view. He and I have been buying and squirrelling away various powders, primers, and other items. A good friend moved out of the country recently and he gave me approximately 50 pounds of various pistol and rifle powders that he couldn't take with him. The good thing about this is, I have at least two molds for every caliber I shoot, rifle and pistol. So many to cast and load for ..................... not enough hours in the day.

HV

[Reloader06]

"So many to cast and load for ..................... not enough hours in the day."

Can I get an Amen!?

[HiVelocity]

amen!

[357maximum]

My FIL's buddy is a retired gunsmith. He watched me meet or exceed j-word speeds with great accuracy with several of my toys one day....then he blatently say's "ain't no way that is possible"........some people cannot be convinced that ball bats are hard when you hit them with one.....good luck.

I shot the BRP360-220 @ 2700 fps in my 35 whelen with 1.2 moa accuracy or less....I actually dialed the load back to 2400 after I shot my first deer with that load.[smilie=s:

I had the RCBS 55grain 22cal doing 3200FPS+ out of an older 1/12 twist H&R 223...it was as accurate as any jacketed load in that gun (1.2MOA) for about 20 shots then I had to dry swab the bore one time to shoot another 20 accurate shots due to the powder I was using to get to that speed gently. I would bet that some of the newer 4part alloys some of us are toying with would have made things tighter yet.

2512 fps in my 7TCU 21inch carbine was an absolute cakewalk to get 1.25 MOA groups with the right alloy/boolit/powder combo.

Them are not the only loads/guns that can do that....I have several toys that will do it with ease.

The important part is right here: Powder choice/alloy choice/boolit fit&design/good casting and sizing practices/good reloading practices are all dependant upon one another to get there, but once it is "possible" in your head the rest is relatively easy in most guns, sure there is the occassional stinker but they are rare.

[ROGER4314]

"So many to cast and load for ..................... not enough hours in the day."

You hit the nail directly on the head. It is my JOB to play since I've been retired and I have enough projects stashed back to keep me busy for a very long time. All of my casting and reloading gear is idle right now because I only have TWO hands.

I just got a new MEC 600jr 12 gauge loader a few days ago and I'll get it hooked up soon.

Today, I figured out what I want for Christmas. Tomorrow, I'll get a 12 volt powered trap/launcher for clay pigeons, mount it on a small trailer that is sitting unused and "me and the guys" are going to slay some birds! The point is that I'm happy, busy, learning a lot and doing the things that I really love.....shooting rifles, pistols and shotguns, reloading, casting, loading shot shells, scrounging lead alloys, experimenting with lead alloys and if a slow day comes, I'll fire up the Harley and get some wind therapy.

As I read this thread, I thought.......OK.....Get out there and keep shooting different loads until you get the answers to the OP then report back to us! If you'd like to chronograph some loads, let's get after it. Where are you? I'll help.

Flash