KaBoom, KaBoom; my first kaboom

[prs]

I was shooting steel action targets yesterday all by my lonesome self. I moved over to the "hostage" target and slammed the "bad guy" from left to right and then right back to left, then as held on bad guy again KA-BOOOOOM!! My left hand was numb, but still had a grip on the weapon (shooting one handed). My face stung on the left side of my nose and ckeek. I was black from my left finger tips up to my wrist. The boolit hit the "hostage" center of mass. Oops!

I was shooting an SR 1911 with my hand loads. Starline brass, WW Large Pistol Primer, 5.4gr Unique, Lee 452-230-TC boolit with Lee tumble lube. This is typically a boolit that feeds well and shoots accurately with this hand gun, but leads a little where the boolits scrapes over the rather abrupt start of the lands. Could not find any trace of the failled case (yet). I found one of the Ruger Hawk logos from one of the grips. Both grips lost those pressed in logos. The right grip split and both pieces were found nearby. The magazine landed at my feet with two live rounds loose beside it and two still inside. The action of the pistol was closed, but no round in chamber (that's a neat trick). After finding the parts and pieces (except for remains of the errant brass and one Ruger logo), I field stripped and exammined the pistol. No evidence of harm noted. So, with one grip missing I finished my shooting of that magazine's rounds and the other three full magazines I had left.

I doubt a double charge, but could not definitely state such was not the cause. I load on a progressive press and have a mirror set for visual check of powder levels at boolit seating die. I have hand loaded since 1976 and this would not be my first error. I have had missing powder charges and missing primers way back when. The preceeding round hit the target and the errant round hit the "hostage" rather lightly; so no barrel obstruction. Modest leading found at cleaning time close to the chamber. So, did it fire out of battery? Case rupture? Maybe the boolit was driven deep into the case during cycleing? If I do eventually find the case, what evidence of clue might it yield?

Glad I had saftey glasses on, only a few small bleeds on my face which are not visible since washing. I glued the right grip back together last night and am ready to go again. I shoot lead extensively in my Glock 23 and had pretty much written the lead boolit KaBoom reports off as old wives' tales, but this happens with a 1911 with well less than 10,000 rounds on the clock.

prs

[Grandpas50AE]

Without more to go on, I would say a slightly heavy charge (Unique is notorious for not metering as well as the ball or smaller flake powders) combined with some set-back. Glad you are o.k. If it were me I would have the pistol checked closely for micro-fractures just to be comfortable.

[454PB]

I'm glad you weren't hurt. Hard to say what caused it, but the damage done sounds like what happened to me with a 9mm years ago. I blame it on a telescoped boolit, but never found any definitive proof of that.

[Wally]

One charged may have bridged and the next charge knocked it loose...so there was an overcharge

[35remington]

Let's dispense with the commonly erroneous assumption that firing out of battery with a 1911 is possible. It is impossible.

If the case is far enough out of the chamber that the case head is liable to rupture and the lugs are not engaged, the firing pin will not fall. Can't happen, ever, ever.

So let that one go. Most likely an excessive powder charge or a bullet seated too deep in feeding. It did not and cannot fire out of battery. The case head blew out for other reasons. Take a closer look at how far out of battery the 1911 will tolerate and still allow the pin to fall....it won't tolerate it at all. Manipulate the pistol yourself in this regard to find the truth of this statement.

The empty chamber was not a "neat trick" but rather the consequence of a ruptured case. The ruptured case drove the remaining rounds down into the magazine well, and the follower was either damaged or driven down so far that the remaining rounds did not have time to rise into feeding position before the breechface went forward. The spring may have suffered some injury as well.

When these things happen, there is an opportunity to learn, and to discard the impossible ideas for more likely causes.

[35remington]

BTW, if that rupture would have happened with a plastic framed pistol like a Glock it would most likely have trashed it.

[geargnasher]

Ouchee, glad you're ok. I had a very similar experience, telescoped boolit in a Winchester case. My lead was too soft and the remaining rounds in the magazine showed varying degrees of boolit telescoping depending on brass brand. I've found the Winchester .45 ACP to be generally thinner in the walls than some other brands (but of course this varies by age and lot with any headstamp), and the thin stuff is not suitable for minimal-tension situations. If it hadn't been for those remaining cartridges telling me what was happening I probably would have blamed it on a double charge. The case head was blown out and had a whopper of a ding in the rim from smacking the ejector. The Shock-Buff I was using was also disintegrated.

Even if you find the case you may not be able to tell much, but thank goodness for the 1911 design that can take even a blowup that seriously damages the gun and still usually only inflict superficial injuries to a properly protected shooter. BTW, it's a lot worse on the hands when shooting two-handed and the grips blow off, you're lucky there.

Gear

[captaint]

prs - It's great you weren't hurt worse. I might have the gun checked - or do a really close up job yourself. I can only say this - I don't load Unique simply because I don't like the way it meters. Also, I don't load on a progressive. I do have a manually operated turret though. What I do is use IMR SR 7625. It loads same as Unique, only it meters like dry sand - beautifully - every time. So that's why I use that. I actually have a full pound of Unique. I've tried it a couple of times and it just won't reliably meter through my powder measures. Again, glad you're OK. Mike

[tomme boy]

1911 can and will fire out of battery if the firing pin is stuck forward. I have also seen 1911's that were really worn that would fire with the slide held about 1/8" rearward. A in "spec" 1911 will not fire out of battery, is a better way of explaining it. My bet is a bad piece of brass.

[40Super]

I agree completely with 35Remington, firing out of battery,for some reason(other forums are horrible for this), is always the first thing that is thought of as being the cause. It's the one reason that wouldn't be "the fault" of the reloader, so it's natural to blame it, but as stated, not really possible, even with many plastic's. I myself don't "blame" a reloader, even if it would be a double/overcharge,the first time it happens(unless blatenly disreguarding saftey was done), because given the amount of rounds some reload, one mistake, can happen. The 2 suggestions brought up are the most likely, which one,noway to know. My one thought of the setback issue is that if the boolit can push in fairly easy, wouldn't it push back out(to the normal length )just as easy, before pressures get so high, thus returning case volume to normal?
Glad no damage was done to you and the Ruger(other then the mag and grips), good quality gun did what it was supposed to.
Now if you have another one shortly, well then, opinions can change .:confused:

[Dan Cash]

Let's dispense with the commonly erroneous assumption that firing out of battery with a 1911 is possible. It is impossible.

If the case is far enough out of the chamber that the case head is liable to rupture and the lugs are not engaged, the firing pin will not fall. Can't happen, ever, ever.

So let that one go. Most likely an excessive powder charge or a bullet seated too deep in feeding. It did not and cannot fire out of battery. The case head blew out for other reasons. Take a closer look at how far out of battery the 1911 will tolerate and still allow the pin to fall....it won't tolerate it at all. Manipulate the pistol yourself in this regard to find the truth of this statement.

The empty chamber was not a "neat trick" but rather the consequence of a ruptured case. The ruptured case drove the remaining rounds down into the magazine well, and the follower was either damaged or driven down so far that the remaining rounds did not have time to rise into feeding position before the breechface went forward. The spring may have suffered some injury as well.

When these things happen, there is an opportunity to learn, and to discard the impossible ideas for more likely causes.

Hate to bust your bubble but it can and has happened; with a high primer slam fire.

[runfiverun]

i'd go with a telescoped round.
i use bout 6 grs unique in my loads,you would see a double charge on the wheel.
and much more than that is a compressed load.
5.4 would allow the boolit to be pushed in the case about .10 inch
about the same as putting a 357 mag load in a 38 special case.

[gray wolf]

I hate to annoy 35 REMINGTON but check your disconnector for proper function,
move the slide back slow and see if the hammer with fall as you pull the trigger.
If it does, check and see how far down the barrel has move. My pistol has been looked at two time and eventually had a new slide put on cause it had to much vertical movement and that allowed the disconnect to not function the way John M wanted it to.

[geargnasher]

Hate to bust your bubble but it can and has happened; with a high primer slam fire.

I made one of those happen on purpose, and it was quite a job getting it to go off. Had to have the primer about half out of the pocket, and when it finally DID go off, it fired normally. The primer was flatter than all heck and had no firing pin dent (obviously). I must have tried two or three dozen times. You'd be amazed at how far the primer can stick out and the gun still go into battery with no problems, unless you seat the boolit out far enough to headspace on it instead of the case mouth or extractor claw. Just my experience, but I think there are other causes far more likely than a high primer causing this.

Gear

[prs]

Without more to go on, I would say a slightly heavy charge (Unique is notorious for not metering as well as the ball or smaller flake powders) combined with some set-back. Glad you are o.k. If it were me I would have the pistol checked closely for micro-fractures just to be comfortable.

Well, I am a big Unique fan, but to avoid this WW231 ball or other is possible. The Ruger has stainless steel barrel, I wonder if it can even be magnefluxed?

Rooster

[prs]

I'm glad you weren't hurt. Hard to say what caused it, but the damage done sounds like what happened to me with a 9mm years ago. I blame it on a telescoped boolit, but never found any definitive proof of that.

The "telescoped" boolit is at the top of my list so far. These boolits were push through sized and "I shouda" caught any undersized ones. I am using an "M" die for .452" lead boolits, so an undersized one could lack retention even with a taper crimp.

prs

[prs]

BTW, if that rupture would have happened with a plastic framed pistol like a Glock it would most likely have trashed it.

My hand may have been trashed as well, but us Hill Billies are tough folk. Steel and polymere ain't got noth'n on lye washed hide. lol

Thanks for the lecture on 1911's design being incompatible with out of battery fire, I really do appreciate that! That impossibility if off my list.

Rooster

[prs]

Gear! Most excellent reply! Thanks. That makes me wish I had kept those rounds that ended up at my feet and still in the magazine! They had severe powder burns, but not no other flaws noticeable by me without aid of calipers. I shoud'a kept them to measure, but I had to shoot them in the spirit of "when a horse throws ya, get right back on". Or, was it in kind of a Red Neck's last words, "Hey y'all; watch this............"

Rooster

[C.F.Plinker]

How much is your taper crimp? Are you just removing the flare by crimping the mouth down to .471 or .470 or are you crimping further than this? Did the live rounds you found afterwards show sign that the boolit had been pushed back into the case by any overpressure that could have existed within the grip?

[prs]

A in "spec" 1911 will not fire out of battery, is a better way of explaining it. My bet is a bad piece of brass.

This is not a well-worn shoot'n arn, yet ;-) But, thanks for the follow-up to the previous lecture. I owe you guys tuition! A failed case is 2nd on my list. "Almost" all of my brass is relatively new Starline, but my shooting range has been used by others on occasion and they typically shoot whatever and that **** might have been hidden in the stubble and leaf litter for a year or three before I pick it up. I definitely am gonna be more strict on tossing flawed brass.

Rooster

[doctorggg]

I had a similar experience with a Colt Gold Cup using Unique. Using a progressive press I think I had an overcharge. Probably a bridging of powder with a light charge in one and a heavy charge in the next round. The slide was driven back extremely hard and primer material was driven into the firing pin hole. had a gunsmith put in a new firing pin and examine the pistol. It certainly is scarry. I just received a lot of powder blowback into my face and of course a shaken up hand and nerves. I am glad you are ok. I hope everyone that reads this thread wears shooting glasses.

[prs]

Now if you have another one shortly, well then, opinions can change .:confused:

Ruger builds tanks! I am damn glad of it! The magazine also seems to have suffered no damage other than powder burns that wiped off! Amazing!

The buck stops right here! I AM the guilty party! It IS my fault. An errant charge or a boolit that telescopes back into the case; my "bad" either way. I AM RESPONSIBLE for catching errant charges, light or heavy, I AM RESPONSIBLE for making loads with adequate boolit retention to resist telescoping, I AM RESPONSIBLE to notice if a particular boolit design slaps the feed ramp of the barrel hard enough to be a risk, or to select a powder that is less prone to bridge. It is I, the loose nut behind the grips. We all need a swift kick in the **** now and then to keep us on our toes. I vow to do better. I will do better.

Rooster

[prs]

I agree completely with 35Remington, firing out of battery,for some reason(other forums are horrible for this), is always the first thing that is thought of as being the cause. It's the one reason that wouldn't be "the fault" of the reloader, so it's natural to blame it, but as stated, not really possible, even with many plastic's. I myself don't "blame" a reloader, even if it would be a double/overcharge,the first time it happens(unless blatenly disreguarding saftey was done), because given the amount of rounds some reload, one mistake, can happen. The 2 suggestions brought up are the most likely, which one,noway to know. My one thought of the setback issue is that if the boolit can push in fairly easy, wouldn't it push back out(to the normal length )just as easy, before pressures get so high, thus returning case volume to normal?
Glad no damage was done to you and the Ruger(other then the mag and grips), good quality gun did what it was supposed to.Just my experience, but I think there are other causes far more likely than a high primer causing this.

Gear

I am confident it was not a high primer. I check them as I put the rounds in storage and again as I load the day's clips. I realize you guys are talking in generalities here.

Thank all of you for your help and information and suggestions. I will carefully review my loading process to see what I can and will improve to avoid this in the future.

I will be more strict in culling brass. I will consider use of better flowing propellant. I will continue to strive for better boolit retention. I will cast boolits that feed more slickly in the action such as Lyman's hard ball imitator. I may chill harden my alloy so I can get a tighter case grip without deforming the boolit and thus do away with the "M" die and just use the Lee powder through expander set for condom bullets (gotta thinks about that one as it goes against my intuition).

PigeonRoost Slim

[Wayne Smith]

I had something similar happen in a 32-20, didn't blow anything up, but an obvious overload. Another was an obvious light load. I was loading Unique, too. I went home and checked my powder measures. I have an RCBS, a Lyman 55, and an old Pacific - one you swing over and dump into the measure, then dump the measure into a built in funnel to the case. With each and every one of them Unique bridged somewhere in the process! At this writing I am only using Unique with my Belding and Mull. I have a Bair Pistol Powder measure, one that uses a brass rod with a hole in it to measure the powder, similar to the RCBS. That one bridged as well. I just got a Pacific (Hornaday) Pistol Powder measure and am making bushings for it. I will give it a try.

Please note that the bridging usually was not serious. One grain or less was the usual deviation. Every once in a while it got jammed and a big swing was seen. My rifle is fine, your pistol appears fine. God is good.

PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL MEASURING UNIQUE!

[prs]

How much is your taper crimp? Are you just removing the flare by crimping the mouth down to .471 or .470 or are you crimping further than this? Did the live rounds you found afterwards show sign that the boolit had been pushed back into the case by any overpressure that could have existed within the grip?

The taper crimp is slightly more than that which irons-out the bell, the micrometer reads .470". No obvious flaws noted on recovered live rounds, but then again, I failed to measure them with caliper, I shot them as admitted to Gear.

prs

[cbrick]

Not to counter Gear but a primer doesn't need to be all that high. A few years back I scrounged up several hundred once fired WW 45 ACP brass from the police range. Loaded up a box of 50 with all my usual brass prep except I didn't uniform the primer pocket. The first mag full had two slam fires. I checked the rest in the box and several had high primers even though I seat all primers with my seating device that puts the same pressure for the same amount of time on each primer.

At home I checked primer pocket depth on the remaining several hundred pieces of brass and about 20% of them had shallow pockets. I used the Sinclair primer pocket uniformer on all of them and had no further issues. Had to break down the remaining loaded rounds with a high primer.

When I fired the first round the slam fire round fired while the muzzle was still rising from the first shot, so fast it almost sounded like one shot. It was fully in battery and no harm done except a startled shooter. Glad the third and fourth rounds weren't also high primers.

Rick

[Cherokee]

I switched to 231 many years ago because Unique was not consistent with my RCBS measure. Glad you are OK. Only kboom I have had in 50+ years was from a bad case, kicked the mag out but that's all.

[alamogunr]

Mild hijack! Thanks to all who posted about problems with Unique. I shoot a lot of Unique in handguns and, thankfully, haven't had a problem. I will be even more vigilant in the future.

[wv109323]

Let me ask .35 Remington a question. If the disconnector is worn short or out of spec on length why wouldn't the .45 ACP fire out of battery. The proper design of the .45 is that it will not fire out of battery but if the disconnector is never pushed down by the slide then the hammer can fall any time the trigger is pulled.
Pachmayr at one time imported a .22 conversion for the 1911 platform built by Peter Stahl of Germany. The part of the slide that pushs down on the disconnector was too "high". That meant that the disconnector was never pushed down. That .22 conversion would fire out of battery. Pachmayr had to recall them a repair the slide. They simply welded up the area and then machined the surface to the correct height.

[Mk42gunner]

prs,

Since you more than likely need a new aet of grips for your pistol; Pachmayrs used to have a steel insert under the rubber to protect your hand in cases like this.

Says the man that has tulipwood stocks on his 1911...

Robert

[prs]

Mk42gunner;

I will order a set of OE stocks with the logos "to have", but will also get a set of aftermarkets for use. Are your stock panels liriodendron tulipifera ( tulip poplar ) or some exotic? The steel backer plates; I will keep that in mind as I shop.

Right now, Tite Bond glue is holding the right stock together quite well through a 100 round session yesterday.

prs

[Lance Boyle]

I'm glad you weren't hurt. Hard to say what caused it, but the damage done sounds like what happened to me with a 9mm years ago. I blame it on a telescoped boolit, but never found any definitive proof of that.

That was my first thought, a bullet set back 1/4 inch drastically raises pressure above safe levels. A bridged charge could also be the culprit.

Glad you're ok, that's the important part.

[Lance Boyle]

I made one of those happen on purpose, and it was quite a job getting it to go off. Had to have the primer about half out of the pocket, and when it finally DID go off, it fired normally. The primer was flatter than all heck and had no firing pin dent (obviously). I must have tried two or three dozen times. You'd be amazed at how far the primer can stick out and the gun still go into battery with no problems, unless you seat the boolit out far enough to headspace on it instead of the case mouth or extractor claw. Just my experience, but I think there are other causes far more likely than a high primer causing this.

Gear

Perhaps your manufactured event had a looser fit between the case and chamber to shelter the high primer. A longish case hitting the chamber mouth firmly with a high primer getting smacked by the slide weight would be more likely to go boom than a shortish case with a high primer in the same situation (with headspaced on mouth cases that is).

Just thinking out loud.

I'm suprised that you could still chamber with the primer out that far gear. That's a good chunk of length.

[geargnasher]

Not to counter Gear but a primer doesn't need to be all that high. A few years back I scrounged up several hundred once fired WW 45 ACP brass from the police range. Loaded up a box of 50 with all my usual brass prep except I didn't uniform the primer pocket. The first mag full had two slam fires. I checked the rest in the box and several had high primers even though I seat all primers with my seating device that puts the same pressure for the same amount of time on each primer.

At home I checked primer pocket depth on the remaining several hundred pieces of brass and about 20% of them had shallow pockets. I used the Sinclair primer pocket uniformer on all of them and had no further issues. Had to break down the remaining loaded rounds with a high primer.

When I fired the first round the slam fire round fired while the muzzle was still rising from the first shot, so fast it almost sounded like one shot. It was fully in battery and no harm done except a startled shooter. Glad the third and fourth rounds weren't also high primers.

Rick

You made my point quite well, actually, which was that the slam-fires caused by high primers didn't occur out of battery and didn't "blow up" the gun.

Also, a shallow primer pocket is a WHOLE different story from my example, which was with a normal primer pocket but the primer seated proud, which would explain the relative difference in our experience getting them to detonate. I haven't yet seen a .45 ACP pocket that was too shallow, and am very glad for that.

Gear

[montana_charlie]

I field stripped and exammined the pistol. No evidence of harm noted. So, with one grip missing I finished my shooting of that magazine's rounds and the other three full magazines I had left.
I would have taken that ammunition home for detailed examination.
What if there had been another 'problem round' in there?
CM

[35remington]

Let's help all those confused by my statement:

Out of battery firing is just that......and not "high primer" or I would have mentioned "high primer." I am working under the assumption that the primer was not so far out of the case it could not have been removed from the shell holder. If it can be removed from the shell holder and had room to fit under the extractor on feeding then the lugs will, and I said will, be engaged when the primer fires, even if the primer is a bit high.

Think about it.

If you are still confused or have a problem with this I will be happy to explain how my statement had no flaws. And still does not. Glad I could help.

If the primer is too far out of the case, it will prevent the case from sliding under the extractor on feeding (it can't be that far out of the case and still feed) yet this well out of the case condition, which is the only possible scenario for an "out of battery no lugs engaging" slam fire with the case backed out of the chamber, is incompatible with the high primered case getting fed under the extractor and on to the breechface in the first place. And as for the firing pin being "stuck forward"....think about how a 1911 ejects and feeds the subsequent round and ponder the impossibility of that occurring.

[Mk42gunner]

Mk42gunner;

I will order a set of OE stocks with the logos "to have", but will also get a set of aftermarkets for use. Are your stock panels liriodendron tulipifera ( tulip poplar ) or some exotic? The steel backer plates; I will keep that in mind as I shop.

Right now, Tite Bond glue is holding the right stock together quite well through a 100 round session yesterday.

prs

I honestly don't know what the actual wood species is; I ordered a set of "tulipwood" grips from Brownell's several years ago because I liked the way the colors looked on a knife I had once.

Robert

[cbrick]

35remington, my post on the high primers was in response to Gear's post #14, not to contradict anything you posted.

Rick

[Wayne Smith]

I honestly don't know what the actual wood species is; I ordered a set of "tulipwood" grips from Brownell's several years ago because I liked the way the colors looked on a knife I had once.

Robert

Tulipwood is a tropical hardwood with alternating stripes of yellow and orange in the nice examples. It is very hard, has a unique smell, and the colors fade with time and exposure to ultraviolet light, as do the colors in most wood. That's why Cherry is so unique, it darkens.

[sw282]

l had a kaboom once..My fil and l were shooting his SBH. l fired a rd and commented about the recoil. Passing it to him he fired rd 2 and the ejector rod flew by me. We decided then to "cease fire" and go home to investigate. He said his load 11.8gr of UNQ w/13.6 as max. We got home and l pulled one of the unfired rds apart. Twas "18.1 grs" of UNQ he had charged that 44mag case with. A 50% overload by volume with unknown pressure. He boxed up that Ruger and sent it to for 0l Bill for repair.
He never fired it again. lnstead trading it on a 7 1/2'' Model SBH. To my knowledge he did not reveal the cause of the guns damage. l do remember the ejector rod screw was sheared off. l recall him complaining the Ruger broke,but told him he needed to write Bill Ruger thanking him for building such a strong gun.
Sadly John passed a few months after. A real FRIEND to me. Not only did he give me his daughter but also he introduced me to deer hunting, BOOLIT CASTING,reloading, and handuns. l still miss him.

ps--A couple years after John passing l spied his kaboom SBH at the gunshop he had traded it. A little finish was gone but l had to have it. l was a bit uncertian firing that first shot since that last "surprise" but all went well. l fired that 44 several yrs in IHMSA with no problems. l just never could get used to that 10 1/2'' barrels balance. l sold it some yrs later

[35remington]

cbrick, no argument with what you said, and that wasn't directed at you. As you noted, your lugs were engaged when the primers went off, and I was addressing the impossibility of firing a round with the lugs disengaged, the true definition of "out of battery."

The posts the other guys made were implausible and not correct. Your situation was not one of those.

[MtGun44]

As much as I dearly love Unique a powder, it can be nasty in metering. I have never had
an overcharge due to this, but suppose it is possible.

Frankly, a double charge seems the most likely error to me. I have done ONE myself, with
4.8 gr BE, similar results to yours, although it was a Gold Cup and grips were thick and hard
aftermarket, split them and REALLY stung my hands. I suppose a pushed in boolit could be
the culprit, but I'll still bet on good old human error. Being human, I am darned near an
expert on it! (sad to say!)

Steel guns have their advantages. A Glock is trash after this and the hand is bleeding.

Be happy the next up round did not detonate,too. This happened to a friend and it
bulged the slide in the area below the ejection port outward about 1/8". Got it
back with a press and some careful work, but the pressures were off scale. Also
once saw a Barsto barrel just blow the side and top off of the chamber with a
double charge. The portions that you can see through the port just LEFT. You
could see the left side and bottom of the chamber with the slide fwd.

Bill

[303Guy]

If I may ask, if for example all the planets were to line up .... Let's say scraped lead prevented full lock-up but did not hold the break back far enough to prevent 'out of battery' firing and the boolit was pushed back, would that not cause the ka-boom? The action might unlock while chamber pressure is still high i.e. the boolit is still in the bore. I realize the slide needs to move back quick far before the slide starts to unlock but not that far. A good distance before it fully disengages though.

What about a fiz-bang from the above scenario fully unlocking the action before muzzle exit?

P.S. prs, you in no way to blame. Maybe responsible but not your fault.

[35remington]

First, if the gun's not locked up, as in the lugs not being engaged.....the gun won't fire. It is simple. Hold the barrel to the point it is out of engagement of the lug abutments in the slide and see for yourself. When it is this far out of battery the slide is sufficiently rearward that the hammer hits the bottom of the firing pin stop rather than the firing pin, so the disconnector is not the only thing preventing the hammer from striking the firing pin.

Second, if a gun starts the firing cycle locked, it stays that way the entire time the bullet is in the barrel. The gun cannot and will not unlock until the bullet is gone. Ain't gonna happen. The forces adhering the lugs together cannot be exceeded by any force sufficient to pull the lugs out of engagement as long as the bullet is in the barrel.

Since we've already established the gun won't fire without the barrel lugs being engaged, and the gun won't disengage the lugs while the barrel is in the pressurized condition of having the bullet still inside and speeding downbore, it is not productive to continue to chase the point.

Unlocking happens only after the bullet is gone, and cannot happen before. Physics dicates this is so and it cannot be circumvented.

A study of the 1911's functioning parameters is in order. Firing out of battery (firing without the lugs being engaged) and unlocking before the bullet leaves the barrel are not possible. Both are common misconceptions, and easily proved erroneous.

I am not interested in assigning blame, but postulating impossible events won't find the culprit either.

[1bluehorse]

Interesting information on the 1911 platform. Didn't know any of that..PRS, (how can I ask this without offending at least two people here) do you not reload on a 550? Just asking....okay, now I'll duck and cover..

[fredj338]

Yeah, maybe not a double but an overcharge. I think 10gr of Unique is an over flow or at least so high as to be noticeable. Your 5.4gr load is pretty mild, so I doubt even a severe bullet setback would be the issue w/ the low pressure 45acp. Pressure increses won't even start showing up until the bullet has setback more than 0.060". Even then, again, that load is quite mild, well below max. I have run deep seated 230gr over 6gr of Unique & could barely get to +P vel.

[prs]

Interesting information on the 1911 platform. Didn't know any of that..PRS, (how can I ask this without offending at least two people here) do you not reload on a 550? Just asking....okay, now I'll duck and cover..


LOL ! You might think worse than that (if the 550 is bad, I dunno), my press is a LoadMaster. I've had it for well over 10 years and have had little to complain about. Others fuss about them and cuss abut them; but mine just keeps crank'n em out. I use the pro auto disc powder measure and verify the weight of the volumetric charges. I will consider a 650XL if this press ever wears-out.

prs

[whisler]

I use a Pro-auto-disc measure with Unique and, being forewarned of the flow characteristics of Unique, check my powder drops frequently with a scale. I have never found it to vary more than 0.1 grain or so from the original setting. Maybe I'm just lucky but that's not normal for me.

[prs]

Yeah, maybe not a double but an overcharge. I think 10gr of Unique is an over flow or at least so high as to be noticeable. Your 5.4gr load is pretty mild, so I doubt even a severe bullet setback would be the issue w/ the low pressure 45acp. Pressure increses won't even start showing up until the bullet has setback more than 0.060". Even then, again, that load is quite mild, well below max. I have run deep seated 230gr over 6gr of Unique & could barely get to +P vel.

The possibility of an over charge has merit. If the Unique did bridge in the drop tube and managed to stay bridged in there until the next round was charged, then that charge plus the bridge could be in one case. I sould notice that, but human factor comes into play. I have yet to notice any light charges in my 45ACP ammo, but that light round may still be in the ammo box. What I would expect if a chage or part of a charge bridged in teh drip tube would be a spill of powder as the press is cycled. The Lee powder through die's expanding "plug" grips teh inner shell case enough to give the die a decent "jarring" as the die is raised out of the case.

A double charge would have been so full as to be ovbious, if not over flowing; probably would have been a difficult to seat compressed load.

Great education regarding the not firing out of battery design.

prs

[Gunslinger1911]

Glad you are OK prs !!
I had a Kaboom years ago with a 45 acp Firestar. Man that stings !! Case blew out and flowed a bit, slide was locked shut ! Bashed it (lol) with a 2x4 to get it open. No damage other than magazine guts and rounds all over the ground. Firestar had rubber grips with a metal insert like Pachmyers.

Was using Unique also, always thought it was a double or partial over charge - but never found a round with a wimpy charge. I use 231 now - meters better and seems the shoot cleaner too.

Buddy had one with a Commander - magazine gutted, grips split like yours. Funny part was the grips shattered so much they were "stuck" to his hand ! Nothing severe, just splinters in hand.

[prs]

I found the blown case. I m no expert and I wish not to deny my just gleaned education, but it certainly looks like an out of battery failure.

prs

[I'll Make Mine]

I found the blown case. I m no expert and I wish not to deny my just gleaned education, but it certainly looks like an out of battery failure.

prs

Be more specific? Where was the case split, how much bulge was there at the base of the split, etc. -- photo of the case?

[prs]

55162551635516455165

Take a look.

prs

[cbrick]

Hhmmm . . . It certainly went off. Sure seems the case head/web area wasn't supported.

And it seems that the primer was not struck and from the pic it doesn't appear to be a high primer. So what set it off?

Gonna take someone with more experience than me, all my caffiene soaked brain can think of at the moment is . . . Go get another cup of coffee. Will be interesting to see what others have to say.

The education continues.

Rick

[prs]

Chuck, the primer is spent. The primer dimple actually protrudes outward and is almost breached.
l gotta learn to photograph.

prs

[geargnasher]

The primer indention might tell the whole story. The blowout looks like it could possibly be a defective case with not enough metal at the head, but the primer indent shouldn't show overpressure if it was a simple case rupture at normal pressures. I'm going to go with excessive pressure being the cause, either from an overcharge or extreme boolit telescoping. The one that blew out in my gun flattened the primer indent too, but didn't make as dramatic a hole in the case.

Gear

[duck hollow pete]

Question is it possible a not fully chambered round,long case-lead fouling etc. be locked but not totally and still fire. That would give us somewhat of a blowback function.

[geargnasher]

Question is it possible a not fully chambered round,long case-lead fouling etc. be locked but not totally and still fire. That would give us somewhat of a blowback function.

NO. See post #44. And if it did, the firing pin dent wouldn't be flattened. Only excessive pressure will do that.

Gear

[HangFireW8]

Chuck, the primer is spent. The primer dimple actually protrudes outward and is almost breached.
l gotta learn to photograph.

prs

Well, that's it, it is overpressure, either bullet pushed into the case or overcharge. The blowout at the unsupported area of the feed ramp is classic 1911 failure, but the primer dimple going backwards tells us it is not caused by the failure of a weak/overused case.

HF

[40Super]

Yep, plain and simple overpressure event. Nothing more.

[MtGun44]

Absolutely not an out of battery. The blowout is at the unsupported area of the chamber at
the feed ramp - EXACTLY like the 6-8 overpressured 1911 failures that I have witnessed (only did
one myself).

Over pressure as a certainty. Too much powder.

Bill

[prs]

Great, your guys are forensic booliticians! lol

That Starline case was probably only on first reload.

My bet is that the boolit got knocked rearward in an errant feed or maybe I let an undersized boolit slip by. My "bad" either way or which any way. I inspected and cleaned my powder through die, but it was not dirty. I am going to increase my taper crimp slightly, but I have quite a few of these already loaded. I am keeping a keen eye on rounds as I pack magazines before a shoot. I have not found any rubber grips with metal backer panels, yet. Have Plain Jane back rubber ones on now. Than all of you for helps and educaton.

prs

[huntrick64]

Glad nothing more than your pride was hurt. I cast and load about 3,000-4,000 rounds per year with my Hornady L-N-L progressive. From the beginning, I installed and use a powder cop die. When my rythm is good, I rely on visually seeing that powder indicator on the cop before I change my stroke to the other direction. I have had times where I loaded a few in a row without remembering to watch the powder cop. The first time it scared me enough to pull the bullets. All were charged and it probably would have been a better lesson for me if some had not been charged. Anyway, complacency sometimes tells prudent wisdom to get in the back seat and shut up, so, lately when I catch myself not watching the powder cop I just keep going and try to do better.

After reading your story, I am going back to pulling the bullets if I forget to watch the cop. I have also been thinking about installing some sort of "beep" alarm that is triggered off the powder cop as just another safety feature. It is amazing what the body can pick up when you have to have two different sensory checks (visual and audible). I have yet to double charge (or not charge) a load, but all of my friends have at least once and I have witnessed the results. This tells me it is only a matter of time, so I need to do everything possible to double check myself and my machine.

Again, glad you weren't hurt and thanks for wakin me up, again.

[C.F.Plinker]

If you are going to increase the amount of the taper crimp go ahead and recrimp all of the rounds you have already loaded with your new crimp.
BTW years ago Giles, then one of the 45ACP pistolsmith gurus, recommended taper crimping to 0.463 inches on the guns he built.

[Jumping Frog]

Maybe it is time for one of my rants about Unique. It was a great powder 100 years ago, but I fail to see any reason to continue using a powder that everyone knows meters poorly when there are many terrific modern powder choices that meter like water. (Not to mention, it is also dirty - I call it "combustible dirt")

Sure, it produces mid-range performance in a wide range of calibers. But I also prefer to use a lot of different powders, each suited to my needs for the load in question. But even if someone wanted to stick with a versatile powder, I think Hodgdon's Universal is a better choice. The idea here is to do what Unique does, but without having to use Unique. I have almost a pound of it, don't know if I'll ever use it. Universal on the other hand works every where Unique does and it meters great and gives me terrific accuracy in the loads where I use it.

I still say leave the Unique where it belongs, in the museum.

[XTR]

Sounds very much like my experience about 20 yrs ago, except mine was a double charge of W231 in what was already a hot load. I had on Pachmyers so the grips survived. The slide unfortunately did not. Split the slide and left me bleeding from 20+ cuts in my face where the brass fan came out from between the slide and the frame.

Shooting glasses saved my eyes.

[captaint]

I actually don't know when I'll use the can of Unique I have. Think I'll use it for rifle rounds. I'll just weigh every one. Used to do that anyway, except when loading the .223 for high power matches and certainly that was not Unique in those cases... H335, I think. enjoy Mike

[alamogunr]

I've got a lot of Unique but after reading every post in this thread, I will be more careful when I use it.

There are other powders that don't meter well. I use 4759 in several of my milsurps and it crunches grains on every throw. I weigh every 10th charge and inspect with a light after each 50 rounds(that is a full block). Never had a KB but will do anything to avoid one.

[uaskme]

I had a S&W 29 kaboom recently. I was using ww296 and dont know for sure what happened. The powder may of not measured in my Dillon 550. I have since learned of the problems with that powder and Dillon measures. The grips stayed on it but the rest of it was destroyed. It blew three chambers and broke the top strap.

[MtGun44]

Because it makes really great groups, and meters "well enough". Wonderful stuff, Unique.

Please feel free to not buy any if you don't like it. More for me. ;-)

I keep about 40 different powders or more in stock and Unique gets used a LOT.


Bill

[Fluxed]

I've seen a number if similar incidents and have had one myself, but I was shooting ammo loaded by another person. When pulling bullets after the incident I found several with double charges. 13 grains of Unique will wreak havoc with a 1911.

Its a technique problem not a powder problem.

When loading on a single stage press, you can (and will if you are careful and smart) do a visual inspection of powder level in each case. A typical normal powder charge in a .45 ACP case is easy to spot as it will usually take up about half the case. I charge all mine in a loading block and then look at them all, with care. Its easy to spot and takes only seconds to inspect each block of 50 rounds.

If you are using a progressive press this inspection is generally not available to you. I'd think real hard about how the powder charging system functions with the powder I choose to use. And I'd think hard about how to better inspect my product in process.

Reloading is safe and fun but you do need to exercise standard safety precautions. Careful inspection of your process is one precaution to keep at very the front of your list, for both quality and safety reasons.

[OldManMontgomery]

And, as mentioned by HangFireW8, that failure is exactly in the more or less unsupported feed ramp area.

I was going to suggest a beat up case, but. These were new Starline cases? Starline has a good reputation, but everyone misses a weak one sometime. Just remember, the first time one fires a new case, that case is being proof tested.

I've used a lot of Unique over the years; it is the perfect burning rate for heavy loads in semi-automatic pistols, and will load just about anything (handgun, rifle and shotgun). It does not meter as uniformly as 231 or H110, but with any care in the charging process and staying away from 'max' levels of loading, I've never had a problem.

PRS, carry on. Be careful, but don't develop a complex over it.

[35remington]

The near hysteria one poster had about Unique is quite overblown. Calling it "combustible dirt" is ridiculous, as at normal 45 ACP pressures it burns quite decently cleanly. In standard ACP charge weights there is nothing to fear about metering reliability in appropriate sized fixed cavities and when using the correct rotor in other measures. The "vaunted" Universal powder espoused has drawbacks of its own that do not make it better in many instances when used in some cartridges and loadings......quite the opposite, in fact.

Use Unique with confidence in the 45 ACP. Its bulk is an advantage, and its versatility nearly unmatched for the caliber.

Perhaps it would be good to tell us somewhat more about your powder measure. There most problems lie.

[jhalcott]

Being an OLDER shooter, I've seen or experienced quite a few "impossibilities" in my life. Another possibility of the telescoping bullet is the case condition. IF this is a case that was shot a number of times, it may have become work hardened. This could have an effect on the sizing and temper of the case. I've seen many Bulls eye shooters scrounge empty cases for practice ammo. Since the OP loads on a progressive, I believe that's part of the problem. I once had a "gentleman" tell me that a 1911 .45 ACP can NOT go full auto. BUT I had one empty the clip when I dropped the slide! It WAS an OLD gun that had been in the Navy longer than I had been on Earth. I returned it to the gunnersmate and got another for qualification.

[EDK]

I had a S&W 29 kaboom recently. I was using ww296 and dont know for sure what happened. The powder may of not measured in my Dillon 550. I have since learned of the problems with that powder and Dillon measures. The grips stayed on it but the rest of it was destroyed. It blew three chambers and broke the top strap.

I was using either 231/HP38 or TITEGROUP in a 550B DILLON press with 265 grain RANCH DOG boolits in a recently tuned 5.5 inch stainless 44 magnum Original Size VAQUERO. It blew 3 chambers and bent the top strap big time. $1000 worth of tuned gun became $200 worth of spare parts, BUT all I got was a numb hand.

[Dave C.]

I know that I'm new to this reloading thing but in the last 27 years that I have been loading on one of the evil Dillon 550's I have loaded 250,000 rounds. About equal amounts of 38 Spl, 2.8 grains of evil Bullseye powder and 45 ACP, 4.2 grains of evil Bullseye powder. I have yet to blow up a pistol. Some say I'm lucky or maybe I just pay attention to what I'm doing when I'm reloading.

Living on the edge: Dave C.

[cbrick]

The progressives aren't evil. I do think it is easier to get sidetracked when people are paying more attention to how many hundreds per hour they can do. But as you say, pay attention to what your doing.

Rick

[35remington]

EDK's account of a kaboom with a good metering powder sorta casts some suspicion the "meterability" of the powder having something to do with the OP's woes.

Most likely a double charge or setback bullet, unrelated to any metering issues.....which aren't an issue in 45 ACP sized charges anyway.

Thing is, if any halfway decent attempt is made to look in the case before seating the bullet, like taping a flexi-light to the press to look in the case mouth at the seating die station, Unique's bulk is an advantage to double charge detection. Less bulky powders, which are often the "better metering" type, occupy less case space and a double charge is harder to detect.

But not looking at all won't help you even with a bulky powder. And a loose case/bullet fit could also be to blame, so I'm not casting any definitives on the ability of the handloader here.

[prs]

Hey Froggie?

What is your opinion regarding ffg black powder? ;-)

I ONLY have two kegs of Unique on hand, when its gone I will consider options.

prs

[40Super]

:popcorn:Yes, FFG in a modern pistol cartridge, I want to watch.:popcorn:




:kidding:

[prs]

And, as mentioned by HangFireW8, that failure is exactly in the more or less unsupported feed ramp area.

I was going to suggest a beat up case, but. These were new Starline cases? Starline has a good reputation, but everyone misses a weak one sometime. Just remember, the first time one fires a new case, that case is being proof tested.

I've used a lot of Unique over the years; it is the perfect burning rate for heavy loads in semi-automatic pistols, and will load just about anything (handgun, rifle and shotgun). It does not meter as uniformly as 231 or H110, but with any care in the charging process and staying away from 'max' levels of loading, I've never had a problem.

PRS, carry on. Be careful, but don't develop a complex over it.

I'm not the complex type, rather simple maybe ;-)

When my legs were younger, I was an avid fan of ruffed grouse hunting with pointing dogs. My appreciation of Unique initially stemmed from its superior performance in 1oz 16ga loads where it is consistent regardless of hot or quite cold temperatures and potent without the punishing kick of some other cold hardy powders. My press allows me to view the charges before boolit seating and I may adopt a modification to vibrate the powder drop at each load. My number one suspect in this instance is a boolit that may have been a bit undersized and pushed back into the crimped case during cycling.

prs