Inexpensive imports or kit build

[RU shooter]

Ive always wanted to get a muzzle loader of my own and did some searching on auction sites recently ,Man these got expensive for a good name brand like TC . The only ones that would be in my price range were the real cheap looking imports and I'm sure the quality will match the low price. Is there anywhere to look for a decent rifle that will shoot ok and not constantly be a headache? Maybe a kit build ? I'm looking to mainly just use it to just target shoot and play around with hunting with it would be secondary, was looking for a 45 cal . flint or percussion either one will do. So what would be a good starter rifle? can those cheap imports shoot OK or should I avoid them like the plague ?

thanks,Tim

[Bulldogger]

A Thompson Center .45 or larger, percussion-fired shouldn't be much money at all. Those inlines have driven the prices down on traditional front-stuffers. Try Craigslist or the local paper for a used one. Just give her a good going over for rust and wear. Most of these I find have barely been shot, if at all. A flintlock will drive a higher price, because they are more complex, but cap-fired muzzle loaders are not as popular right now, even though there is nothing wrong with them.
Bulldogger

[rtracy2001]

Don't be afraid to check other states' craigslist. Here in Idaho, the F&G has effectively banned inlines for the ML season (They can still be used durring the any weapon season), so the traditionals are much higher priced than elsewhere.

(The worst part of that deal is the fact that F&G claims it was at the request of the local ML associations, so I'll NEVER join any of them)

[waksupi]

Don't be afraid to check other states' craigslist. Here in Idaho, the F&G has effectively banned inlines for the ML season (They can still be used durring the any weapon season), so the traditionals are much higher priced than elsewhere.

(The worst part of that deal is the fact that F&G claims it was at the request of the local ML associations, so I'll NEVER join any of them)

Just remember, you get what you pay for.

Some years ago here in Montana one of the guys on the F&G commission wanted an early muzzle loader season, as he had an inline he wanted to use. We old timers came out of the woodwork against them. We showed that with a scope and sabot rounds, there was no difference between them, and a modern cartridge rifle. During the rut, it would have been sheer murder on the bulls. Hunting season is long enough, and there is enough area, that using a muzzle loader in regular season is not a handicap.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Keep looking for a TC.
I've had a couple of "other brand" cheapo's
they were a pain to disassemble for cleaning purposes.
the quality of the steel is krap too.

Spend $300 on a TC, you'll get $300 or more when you deside to sell it in a few years, they hold their value real well as you are seeing now.
Jon

[Bullet Caster]

Try checking into the Pedersoli's. They're one of the best Italian imports. I've got a .50 Pedersoli flinter that I really like. Took me awhile to get used to the buckhorn sights, but once mastered, it proved to be a real shooter. Not real sure of the MOA, but I began to put them all in the black at 100 yds. You have to be good at Kentucky windage to master the buckhorn sights. I think I'd stay away from caplocks and inlines. Waksupi can build ya one if the price is right. BC

[rtracy2001]

Just remember, you get what you pay for.

Some years ago here in Montana one of the guys on the F&G commission wanted an early muzzle loader season, as he had an inline he wanted to use. We old timers came out of the woodwork against them. We showed that with a scope and sabot rounds, there was no difference between them, and a modern cartridge rifle. During the rut, it would have been sheer murder on the bulls. Hunting season is long enough, and there is enough area, that using a muzzle loader in regular season is not a handicap.

You want to restrict the use of optics/scopes? . . . OK
You want to make sure the weapon can ONLY be loaded from the muzzle? . . . OK
No Sabots? Well I suppose there is an argument to be made for that.
You ban all weapons where the ignition source isn't completely visible when the gun is cocked? . . . Huh???
You specify only musket caps or percussion caps with a special prohibition on 209 primers specifically?. . . WTH
You ban the use of black powder or substitutes in pellet/compressed form even if homemade? . . . :evil:.

On top of all that you put the muzzleloader season dead last, after the any weapon season, and mandate a special "muzzleloader permit" be purchased.

Supposedly all these restrictions were requested by the local ML associations. (according to the email I got from IDFG).

And now you say that the price inflation on the traditional style muzzleloader is a GOOD thing???
You will need to explain that one to me, because I just don't get it.

[DIRT Farmer]

Shooter, around here I find T-Cs caplock for $100 or less at gun show or pawn shops, cheaper at yard sales. Some have bad barrels that take them to less than $50.

A T-C with a bad barrel for $50 and a Green Mountian drop in barrel still gets you in the game for less than $300, and a great shooting gun.

[Omnivore]

Nothing wrong with a Lyman either. IIRC, Lyman and TC are both made by Investarm. I have a Lyman Deerstalker and it is a decent shooter even if the fit and finish aren't top notch. My son and I have taken a number of deer with it. Their Trade Gun seems to be a pretty good value, and has a slightly longer barrel (the Deerstalker is a shorty, with a 24" barrel). The TCs I've seen close up do seem to be fit slightly better, and command a slightly higher price for it, but shootingwise, I doubt there is much difference.

[kenyerian]

buy a TC Hawken Lifetime Warrently, made in America. http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/mzTraditional.php I've had mine for around 40 years and if I live long enough it will last me another 40.

[RU shooter]

Thanks all Ill keep looking for a TC ,seems that the 45 cal is harder to find all I seem to see is the 50 cal.

[HangFireW8]

If you go T/C get a pre S&W takeover...

HF

[RU shooter]

If you go T/C get a pre S&W takeover...

HF
How would I know if its pre or post SW ?

[HangFireW8]

Serial number, or obvious quality problems.

[seasidehunter]

Serial number, or obvious quality problems.

How about provide the serial # info for determining ..... otherwise just a bunch of #'s. WHAT IS THE INFO needed by looking at the serial # to know one from another?

What are the details of the S&W takeover ...

Thanks

[seasidehunter]

Shooter, around here I find T-Cs caplock for $100 or less at gun show or pawn shops, cheaper at yard sales. Some have bad barrels that take them to less than $50.

A T-C with a bad barrel for $50 and a Green Mountian drop in barrel still gets you in the game for less than $300, and a great shooting gun.


Dirt...

please let me know if'in you see one .....

[Fly]

Hey I will keep a eye out here in Okla for you.T/C are in most pawn shops pretty cheap.If I come across a deal
I will pm you.I will be glad to pick one up for you.

Fly

[mooman76]

You can get away with a cheap caplock. The old CVAs shoot pretty good and usually better than the shooter. Flintlocks are a whole nother story going cheap with them would be bad.

[HangFireW8]

Sorry don't have the serial numbers. Just still pissed off about S&W sending lobbyists to Annapolis, Maryland telling our legislature how great an idea it would be to put their safety lock standards into law for all new handguns sold in Maryland. That was back when S&W sided with the states attorney general suing the gun industry out of business, they thought they would side with the anti's and be the Last Man Standing. We are still dealing with the fallout from their actions. No apologies, but a million dollar donation to the NRA and a fake takeover of debt by Safe-T-Hammer and suddenly all is forgiven, at least by the forgetful...

I'll never buy a new S&W as long as I live, nor T/C as long as they are owned by S&W.

[FergusonTO35]

Pawn shops around here are stuffed with rusty sidelocks but won't deal on them. So they'll just keep sitting there...

The less expensive T/C's such as the New Englander and Renegade can be found for cheap on Gunbroker. I sold my own low mileage New Englander for $130.00 awhile back. I paid $75.00 for it from a guy who couldn't hunt anymore. The stock didn't fit me very well and I just didn't enjoy shooting it so down the road it went. As far as quality and performance I thought the New Englander was comparable to my Spanish made CVA Plainsman from the 80's.

[oldracer]

After you get some time with a percussion or flint lock front loader and it is time to make your own, you might want to contact the folks at Muzzle Loaders Supply Co. I bought the parts last winter and after 3 months or so have a pretty accurate shooting Lehigh model. The stock and barrel are generally the most expensive parts and mine is tiger striped maple with a 42 inch Colerain barrel. The owners will take lots of time explaining all the differences in locks, triggers, etc. Be ready for LOTS of carving, scraping, sanding and such.

[oldracer]

Opps, forgot the link, sorry. http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/

[FergusonTO35]

That's a nice rifle. My old CVA began life as a kit ordered from an ad in American Hunter in 1986. My Dad and I put it together over a period of a few months. It's taken a few deer over the years and resides next to my desk.

[RU shooter]

Thats a beautiful rifle there oldracer! I wish I had the skills in woodworking and the patience to go with it to do a job like that. The metal work I can handle . Is there anywhere that sells kits similar to that PA long gun that the wood is say 75 percent or more done on the inletting ?Even better I saw a rifle in my web browsing that really caught my eye it was a half stock Lehamn style or something like that trade rifle .

[fouronesix]

Most of the outfits who sell traditional ML "kits" offer them with pre-inlet stocks where a major portion of the inletting is done- I'd say well over 75%. Here's an example of one of the simpler rifles in kit form.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKitDetail.aspx/605/1/CLASSIC-TENNESSEE-LONGRIFLE-FLINT-PARTS-LIST/KIT-CTI-13-40-FLINT

[waksupi]

No matter what you get for a kit, take your time. I have seen more $300 rifles made from $700 worth of parts, than $700 worth of parts made into a $3000 rifle. Both can be done from the same parts. The difference is what is between your ears.

[oldracer]

The wood work on mine was probably 75% finished. The trigger opening was roughed and the opening for the lock had been done. The barrel channel was about 75% done. This was mainly because another person had ordered the stock and backed out so I got it as it sat and also a good price for the wood with grain like that. There is a company in L.A. named Gunline that makes checkering and inletting tools and the inletter I bought has 3 scrapper blades and made short work of the barrel fitting. The hardest was making the jigs for the pins for the rod thimbles and drilling the hole for the end of the ram rod. There are some sites that show all that stuff in great detail. I also had the dovetails cut for the sights and the underlugs and even got the stock marked where the underlugs went! Just have to go slooooow!

[seasidehunter]

Hey I will keep a eye out here in Okla for you.T/C are in most pawn shops pretty cheap.If I come across a deal
I will pm you.I will be glad to pick one up for you.

Fly


Thanks FLY

ans good idea I'll check on some C list ads etc -- let me know if you see something

I would love to find a .58 somewhere ....

[wolfe28]

Keep looking for a TC.
I've had a couple of "other brand" cheapo's
they were a pain to disassemble for cleaning purposes.
the quality of the steel is krap too.

Spend $300 on a TC, you'll get $300 or more when you deside to sell it in a few years, they hold their value real well as you are seeing now.
Jon

I must concur with this. I picked up a fairly nasty looking TC Newenglander for $25.00 of the used rack at the LGS a few years ago. Soaked the lock in WD-40 to loosen up the rust and then re-installed it. Scrubbed the bore with comet to clean out the rust and smooth off some of the pitting, and then put a new nipple on it. Took it to the range two weeks later and shot a cloverleaf group at 50 yards with 70g of FFFg and a .490 prb. I took the target back to the shop and showed it to the guy that sold it to me; definitely impressed him.

Another thing to look for is someone selling the stock and hardware for a TC on FBay. You can often pick those up cheap, and then order a GM barrel (as someone else mentioned) and still have a great shooter for less than a more "inexpensive" rifle.

D

[oldracer]

A couple of the ML competitors in the San Diego area have showed me their "extra" barrels for their T/C rifles. Most all are long and 1 in 18 .451 Gibbs type setups and they use them in that real long range stuff. A couple of them have several different ones of various calibers and all started from a "rat" of a gun and was refinished and worked on over time to get a real shooter!