can't get the bore clean

[hydraulic]

We had our monthly lever rifle silhouette match last Sunday, and I was getting some flyers that made me think something was wrong with my loads. I'm shooting a '94 Winchester with a 26" .38-55 Numrich barrel. The load is 18.7 grs. of 2400 under the Lyman 375248 plain base bullet. Thinking I might be pushing those ACWW's a little too hard, I cleaned the barrel well; hoppes, bronze bore brush, half dozen patches, which came out with a little gray color to them, then loaded a few rounds with the Lyman 375449 gas check bullet with 27 grs. of AA2230, a load I have used for some time that works well in my rifle. Drove out to the ranch today and fired a series of 3 shot groups at 200 yds. out the window of the pickup. No trouble keeping them in the 12" black, except every few shots I'd get a flyer clear out on the edge of the paper; sometime high, and somethimes low. Came home and went to work with the cleaning rod with a vengence. Remembered I had bought some of that lead removal cloth that Midway sells, so after a good scrubbing with JB I ran a 1" square of that stuff on a tight fitting jag down the bore and it came out looking like it was covered with black shoe polish. More cleaning, more lead cloth patches, 10 or 12, and still black shoe polish. Went and dug out my home made electonic cleaner. Filled the barrel with vinegar/water and left it cook for 15 minutes. The mix came out looking orange like rust, and the first patch was covered with a brownish rust color. Ran a lead cloth patch through: black shoe polish. Filled up the cleaner again and ran it for 20 minutes. Steel cleaning rod was solid black and the mix was black. Plain cleaning patch came out looking like, you guessed it, black shoe polish. Ten more lead cleaning patches and ten more patches covered with black shoe polish. Thinking I might be removing iron from the bore, I slugged it and it measures .376. Is it possible that the barrel can look absolutely pristine, bright and shiny, and still be filled with lead?

[williamwaco]

I don't know the cause.
I am familiar with the effect.

I have NEVER seen one of those lead remover cloth patches come out clean no matter how clean the bore is when you run it through.


.

[BeeMan]

Same here on the abrasive cleaners. Iosso, JB, doesn't matter which, the patches come out looking dirty. Go after that bore with a bit of copper chore boy or bronze wool wrapped around the bronze brush. You can dry brush or use something like eds red or kroil. This always gets leading out for me, and there is no question about why a patch is coming out black.

[Jeff H]

The lead remover cloth is going to become black. I have used it on clean steel and it becomes black, sort of like metal polish turns black on a patch or rag. It still works, but it will be black regardless of whether what you're rubbing it on is clean or not.

If you have lead in the barrel, a patch of COPPER kitchen pot scrubber wrapped on an old brass or bronze bore brush is the berries. I tried the lead cloth back in the early eighties and the one I bought lasted a good ten years, but it's no match to the pot scrubber.

Make sure the scrubber is COPPER! The imported ones I saw said "Copper Pot Scrubber" on the package in BIG LETTERS, but said "copper plated steel" in really, really small leters. DON'T get that one. Chore Boy is the one I have and I get it from ACE HDW. They come in a pack of two and last a long time. When a new load or bullet doesn't work out as intended and leads badly, three to five strokes cuts out lead that the "lead cloth" would only polish after forty to fifty strokes.

[geargnasher]

Geez, what LUBE are you using?

Gear

[btroj]

I seriously doubt you have lead that bad. If it won't come out pretty easily with some steel wool on a brush then I don't worry it too much.
The lead removal cloth and JB will always show some black.
You are like a dog chasing it's tail. Stop chasing and start looking to see why the load is giving flyers.

[geargnasher]

+1 Btroj. When you've cleaned the barrel such that it's invisible past the front of the receiver, you've reached the point of diminishing returns.

Gear

[williamwaco]

I have trouble finding copper scrubbers.

I use bronze wool.
Easy to find at any paint store, Home Depot, or Lowes.

[geargnasher]

Bronze wool is excellent for removing lead, particularly the stubborn little bit that seems to get down in the crevice at the base of the lands. Since bronze wool is fine enough to burn at Bic lighter temps, it's no good for smoking crack and stores are still stocking it.

Gear

[HARRYMPOPE]

Some of the Numrich barrels i have seen look like they were rifled with a dull file.I had a shortened small ring 95 that was in 45 acp and it too would pick up lead even at moderate loads.That barrel was full of machining marks.Does yours look like this?

[hithard]

Run a brush with copper scowering pad pieces on it threw a few time, then a plain patch. Do this a few times. Then add some lead remover for a bit. Then plain patches with alcohol to clean it all out.

[bosterr]

I'm more inclined to think that shooting an open sighted rifle at 200 yds. out the window of a pickup has more to do with flyers that lead in the bore.

[44man]

Yes, BLACK, that is the color the abrasive in the cloth turns steel. You are lapping the bore and it might smooth it out.
The abrasive is fine, like JB.
Fliers from my revolvers are always from softer lead. I water drop and they go away. Try that and see if it helps.

[Jkallen83]

also, if ur using cast bullets, u might want to weigh each bullet. i had this problem, grouping great, but i would get fliers for no reason, i started weighing my bullets before loading and found out that i did get some that were either lighter or heavier than the "majority".
so after i cull out the odd weights, i eliminated the fliers.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I'm more inclined to think that shooting an open sighted rifle at 200 yds. out the window of a pickup has more to do with flyers that lead in the bore.

good point

[HARRYMPOPE]

also, if ur using cast bullets, u might want to weigh each bullet. i had this problem, grouping great, but i would get fliers for no reason, i started weighing my bullets before loading and found out that i did get some that were either lighter or heavier than the "majority".
so after i cull out the odd weights, i eliminated the fliers.

Unless your casting session is completely horrid with many visual defects/casting cadence delays etc... weighing bullets doesn't typically make much of a difference for me.If they look good they shoot good.Just segregating cavities due to different dimensions is often the problem not the weight sorting.

George

george

[hydraulic]

Thanks, guys, all good advice, though I have already tried most everything mentioned. Glad to find out about that lead cloth. While shooting out of the pickup window all I am looking for is keeping them in the 12" black of the SR 42 target. The load I'm using, 27 grs. of 2230, 275 gr. Lyman bullet, is for the rams at 200 yds, off hand. Over the bench, I can keep them in 2 -3 inches, but I don't have a bench at my 200 yd. range. Lube is Emmetts lube. At the match Sunday I started on the turkeys and killed three. Not good, but not bad for me; I'm the oldest guy in the club, 75. At the Rams I hit the first one and that sight picture is still embeded in my memory, but when I got the picture the same on the others, I had misses, and not close ones. Got three rams. But I killed 8 chickens and 6 pigs which gave me a 20 which was good enough to tie for third place among 15 shooters. We're a small club in South Dakota and while we aren't the best marksmen in the country, one of our members has been the SD BPCR champion the last two years. Anyway, those misses got to bothering me so I went out and shot the target and concluded I had bad leading. Now! I have used chore boy copper for years and plumb forgot about it until you guys mentioned it. Went down tonite and gave it a good workout and I'm getting clean patches. Next problem. Why am I missing those rams, and please don't say, "What's an old fart expect, when he's standing on his hind legs with a "94 with iron sights trying to hit a ram at 200 yds."

[fouronesix]

With the same sight picture burned to memory you shouldn't miss those sillywets by much. I fully understand your comment on "sight picture memory". If you are getting tight groups at 200 off the bench there is no reason (other than shooter error) to miss-- unless something else is at play. My only thought is that leading is building rapidly during the match but doesn't show up during a limited bench session off the bags.

I'd look at the basic load. The 38-55 should have plenty of poop to knock over steel targets so not much concern about energy/velocity- even at BP ballistics. Maybe try a 250 gr +/- gas checked bullet sized to groove diameter over something like 17gr 5744 with dacron filler. That load is the most accurate in my original 94s, it doesn't lead and at 1300 fps at the muzzle, should be plenty for the 200 yard steel targets. Just my dos centavos

[bearstopper]

I would shoot the gun from the bench and make sure, then load up some jacketed bullets and compare. Eliminate either the gun or the load that way hopefully.