Tell me about casting for 5.56

[Rich22]

So I have to make a caliber choice and make it soon, started another thread on here about selecting an AR but that is a whole other subject. Big issue is that I need to be able to cast whatever round I choose since factory bullets are too expensive to allow me to shoot as much as I want. Never read anything about casting for 5.56 and the search feature is not working for me now. If casting for 5.56 is out of the question or insanely difficult it will at least make my caliber choice much easier.

Thank you for the info. This is a great place to learn.

Rich

[rockrat]

I had MUCH rather cast for 30 cal (300 blackout or 7.62 ruskie short) than 22 cal. Them tiny boolits and gas checks are a pain.

That recently cut 311-155 NOE boolit might work great in the 300 blackout. Need to cast some and try them out.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I have been casting 22 slugs for at least 25 years, I don't find it too difficult, and as for sizing them and attaching the gc. no problem. A Lyman 225415 mold is a good place to start. A lot depends on what twist rate you choose. A 1 in 14' twist will work very well with the 225415 55 gr. boolit. A faster twist like 1 in 10" or 1 in 9" twist will work better with a heavier boolit like 60+ grs. As for cost the 22 cal cast boolits are the least expensive. My reloads for the 5.56 or 223 costs some where around 10 cents or less per round.

[Recluse]

I'd rather play pickup sticks with my butt-cheeks than cast for .225--I'd have better luck.

There are some here that have near perfected .225 casting. I ain't one of 'em. Trust me.

Then again, everything I was firing them out of was/is a semi-auto. Maybe with a good bolt-action it would be worthwhile.

:coffee:

[leadman]

I cast for my 22s but I use linotype mostly. It makes fill out so much better. I'm using an RCBS mold so those 2 tiny little holes in the mold don't heat the mold much at all.

For my use the Hornady gaschecks are easier to install and fit the boolits better. The Gator checks work but have more of a rounded corner.

With a linotype boolit anything you shoot will have a very large hole for such a small projectile, even a lower velocities. If you want to shoot edible game cast out of WW and cull out the bad boolits.

High velocities are easier to obtain than with larger caliber projectiles. 2,700 fps is about top in the 223 with good accuracy.

[1Shirt]

Recluse, You sure have a way with words!
1Shirt!

[Rich22]

I'd rather play pickup sticks with my butt-cheeks than cast for .225--I'd have better luck.

There are some here that have near perfected .225 casting. I ain't one of 'em. Trust me.

Then again, everything I was firing them out of was/is a semi-auto. Maybe with a good bolt-action it would be worthwhile.

:coffee:

Truly epic response, even had to tell the wife, well if that is the case then the choice is very very easy. Looks like a 300 Blackout is in my future, 6 cavity tumble lube mold ideas anyone? I don't hunt so really doesnt matter as far as expansion. I will have to look into how to make my own gas checks also, have done very little reading on that. Though most of the time I will likely be going with fairly low velocities.

Thanks again

Rich

[ph4570]

I have no trouble casting, gas checking and sizing .225. I mostly use The "22 NATO" 4 cav brass mold created by MiHec. They shoot well in my 1:9 twist weapons. Cost runs a tad less than $10 per 100 based on latest component purchase. That is about 1/2 the cost of the match 22 rimfire I buy.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

when I started casting the tiny 225s, it was a pain, I'd get so many wrinkled boolits.
BUT then I learned the secret...Keep the mold Hot !!!
I have several 22 molds, but this one is my fav for 223rem.
5 cav. RCBS 22-055 FN clone made by NOE.
I preheat the mold on a hotplate and then cast til the mold cools,
you'll see the boolits go from frosty to shiny.
maybe 6 or 8 pours, then I put the mold back on the
hotplate to warm back up.
This method makes casting them as easy as large pistol boolits.

[35remington]

I've found no reason to consider casting .22 bullets impossible, or even particularly difficult. As mentioned, a high percentage of good alloy means well filled out bullets, and many bullets can be had per pound of metal. It is not hard to get loads that shoot that will function the action, and decent accuracy can be had that will allow the sight settings (at least at reasonable ranges) for M193 ball equivalent to be used with reduced cast bullet loads.

This I would not place in the even "hard" category. More like extremely doable. If I can do it, anyone can. If it was indeed that hard, no one would market or sell .22 moulds, as reality is that a decent bullet is not hard to produce.

Eliminating the 5.56 from consideration from fears about difficulties is, in my opinion, a mistake. There is nothing exceptional about my abilities.

[quilbilly]

I have had no problem at all casting 22's for either my triple-deuce or my hornet. Even my arthritic fingers seem to manage the tiny gas checks. The only 22 boolit I am currently casting is the Lee 22 Bator 53 gr. The 223 has been tricky with its short neck but my loads seem to work pretty well in 223 T/C carbine single shot. Last week I tested my 223 loads in a Mini-14 with jacketed at loads starting at 2400 fps and working up to 3000 fps. At velocities under 2500, the Mini-14 wouldn't reliably cycle so I will probably stick to jacketed in that firearm.

[fcvan]

Last year, I bought a Lyman 225-415 thinking that casting the teeny tiny boolits would be a pain. The first boolits dropped beautifully from the preheated mold. I found a load that cycled my Ruger Mini-14 and my brothers AR and stuck with it. I tried several boolit lubes and found that Rooster Red worked okay but Lars BAC works better.

I played with copper electroplating and got decent results but I still haven't perfected a barrel electroplating station. I've pre-ordered a .22 CheckMaker from PatMarlins which as of yet is not in production. When that comes in I will do some more tweaking to the basic load which is 14 grains of 4227 at about 2250 fps and about 25,000 CUP. It's a good plinking load.

I also want to try powder coating some boolits, as well as the electroplating, to see if I can raise the velocity somewhat. For now, I rather like the lower velocity cast loads as they are quieter, the brass doesn't really need resizing, and it is devastating on tin cans. FMJ pokes a hole, cast lead shreds the can. Getting 500 rounds to the pound of powder is always a plus. Getting a lot of boolits from a pound of lead is also a plus. Frank

[b2948kevin]

I'd rather play pickup sticks with my butt-cheeks than cast for .225

LOL! Made my night...

Is there a clear consensus on the top velocity for lead bullets?

[Bad Water Bill]

I'd rather play pickup sticks with my butt-cheeks than cast for .225--I'd have better luck.

:coffee:

Even the thought of that sight was enough to make a real man bring up his breakfast.

I have found that using LINOTYPE is the best way to cast 22 cal boolits. With 120 to 160 per # cost is a non issue and so is any problem of leading.

Try it you might like it.[smilie=s:

[HATCH]

I cast for my 22 hornet. They are little boolits for sure. But they look so pretty when they come out.
I have a NOE group buy mold. it takes a few passes to get it up to temp but once its up to temp it spits them out perfectly.

[rockrat]

Don't get me wrong, I do cast for 22's, but of all the casting I do, I save it for last. Haven't had any luck with my Bee, but will try a Hornet now. 223, not bad. I have 4 moulds for the 22. Do get them HOT. They cast well.

If you go 30, a six cavity mould, hmmm. The NOE 311-155 just made, should work well, but its only a 5 cav. at the most. Can't think of a 6 cav, tl mould that might work, someone else might know of one, but at the moment, not me.

[cbrick]

I'd rather play pickup sticks with my butt-cheeks than cast for .225--I'd have better luck. :coffee:

Well no wonder you had trouble casting the 22's. You simply cannot do that while trying to cast. :veryconfu

Actually I had more trouble learning to cast long skinny boolits than I did the 22's such as heavies in 6.5mm. The RCBS 55 FN casts like a dream and perfect boolits just fall out using COWW +2% Sn.

It's not per se difficult shooting cast in the small bore but there are a few things that you need to understand. Weight variation is much more of an issue with 40-50 grain boolits than it is with say a 250 grainer, a 1 grain weight variation is a huge percentage of the bullet weight where a 1 grain difference in a 250 grain is minor. A good leade into the rifling is more important and so is matching bullet weight to twist rate. It's my belief also that the slowest burn rate powder that will get you into a decent velocity range also helps.

Here's some boolit porn. On the left is the Lyman 44 gr, on the right is the new RCBS 55 gr.

Rick

[L1A1Rocker]

I've got the Miha 556 NATO mold and had a heck of a time getting it lined out. You have to heat it up HOT on your hot plate. Then as you cast, the mold cools. Sooo, what you do is heat it up, cast a few, and then heat it up again - repeat. After going this rout the boolits dropped great.

[cbrick]

The new RCBS 55 FN in pic in post #17, below is the original RCBS 55 gr on the left and the RCBS 60 gr .228" on the right. I'm not a fan of such a thin front driving band and suspect it's why it doesn't shoot as well as the new 55 grainer. The 60 Grain .228" was for the old Hornet larger bores that was the standard back around WWII.

Rick

[Bullshop]

About two years ago we ran a 22 cal only postal match here at CB. Do yourself a favor and try to find the thread and look at the results.
I cant remember exactly who did what but the one thing that sticks in my head is the total combined agregate group average of all entries was somewhere around .75" at 100 yards.
If I am remembering correctly some were pushing velocity to 2700 fps.
So we had a decent number of contestants shooting many different rifles and single shot pistals, shooting several different boolit designs, and different lubes, powders and loads and all the combined groups entered in the match averaged .75". To me that was incredable!

[mdi]

I am looking at casting 45 gr. Lymans for my .223. In my reading/research (see Castpics articles on .223 cast bullets) I've found that the bullet casting isn't a problem, it's driving the lead slug fast enough to cycle the AR action. From what I remember, the velocities/pressures needed (2200 fps+) are difficult to reach successfully (leading, accuracy, etc.)...,

But, I could be wrong, I don't have an AR and I only shoot my .223 one at a time :?

[Doggaroon]

Has anybody used the master caster, or only hand casting the 22

[Baja_Traveler]

I cast and load for the .22 LR using black powder. They are super accurate out of my 39a for the levergun silhouette matches, and not too difficult to cast. Once I get the mould to the proper temp on the hot plate, I hold it up to the sprue of the bottom pour pot to pressure cast for perfect fillout.

My next rifle will be a .22 Hornet, and I'm on the group buy for the 225107 NOE mould. Can't wait to get that one up and running...

54157

[badluther]

I am currently in the process of load development for the Mihec 22 Nato bullet with a Freechex GC and White Label BAC lube. The poster who had issues keeping the mold hot is right. Those small bullets just don't have much mass. One thing I noticed in applying those small GC's is that sometimes they would go on crooked when going through my Star sizer. I noticed NOE sells a chamfer tool to correct that and make it easier to get the GC's on straight. I have a Hornady Bullet puller that will hold that tiny bullet and use the NOE tool to knock the edge of the base. I will post my data (chrono, etc) once I get all my data collected. OP, I'm glad you posted. I like seeing more people getting into the .223/5.56mm casting. :razz:

[45-70 Chevroner]

I had a lot of problems with 22 casting when I first started, but finaly settled on the highest temps the electric pot would produce. Fill out with WW and a little tin is great. I don't use a hot plate as it was too much trouble to cast a little then reheat the mold and cast some more. My 4-20 Lee pot set on high will keep the lead at around 900+ degrees and it works great for 22 boolits. I use a lead thermometer to keep track of the melt temprature. Heavy boolits such as 100 gr and on up require lower temps.

[.22-10-45]

The new RCBS 55 FN in pic in post #17, below is the original RCBS 55 gr on the left and the RCBS 60 gr .228" on the right. I'm not a fan of such a thin front driving band and suspect it's why it doesn't shoot as well as the new 55 grainer. The 60 Grain .228" was for the old Hornet larger bores that was the standard back around WWII.

Rick

The early .22 Hornet bores were actually tighter..the first were re-chambered .22 rimfire barrels. I wonder if that .228 bullet is for the Savage High-Power?

[Bad Water Bill]

The early .22 Hornet bores were actually tighter..the first were re-chambered .22 rimfire barrels. I wonder if that .228 bullet is for the Savage High-Power?

I was thinking the same thing.

IIRC the early Hornets were 223 and in some cases 222. The only cartridge in 228 is a Savage Hi Power

Trying to push a 228 bown a 222 or 223 tube could get VERY interesting if you are 50 feet away when it goes BANG.

[cbrick]

Fill out with WW and a little tin is great.

My 4-20 Lee pot set on high will keep the lead at around 900+ degrees and it works great for 22 boolits.

Nope, no tin in that melt.

Tin looses it's ability to do what you put it in the melt to do past 750 degrees, that is to reduce surface tension by reducing oxidation. Tin itself oxidizes much faster past 750 degrees but even the tin that is not in contact with air still does not have the ability to reduce the surface tension.

This isn't my oppinion, it's the metallurgy of Pb/Sn alloys.

Rick

[cbrick]

The early .22 Hornet bores were actually tighter..the first were re-chambered .22 rimfire barrels. I wonder if that .228 bullet is for the Savage High-Power?

You could be right, seemed that I read somewhere long ago it was the Hornet, maybe not.

Rick

[35remington]

mdi, incorrect. It is quite easy to obtain velocities that cycle the action with appropriate powders that also produce very usable accuracy when shooting cast bullets in an AR 15.

Do a search. It's been done to death here. No need to fear either .22 cast bullets or accuracy/cycling issues in an AR.

[Rich22]

5 Cavity is good enough, just don't want to be using a 2 cav as that would take roughly forever and a day since I plan on needing 500-800 of these a month easy. I am just about frustrated enough with picking a caliber that I am likely to just buy both barrels. Good info here guys, this is WAY more than I have ever read about casting for 223 before.


Don't get me wrong, I do cast for 22's, but of all the casting I do, I save it for last. Haven't had any luck with my Bee, but will try a Hornet now. 223, not bad. I have 4 moulds for the 22. Do get them HOT. They cast well.

If you go 30, a six cavity mould, hmmm. The NOE 311-155 just made, should work well, but its only a 5 cav. at the most. Can't think of a 6 cav, tl mould that might work, someone else might know of one, but at the moment, not me.

[RetAFSF]

well, when i get my molds I'll let you know

[Moonie]

Truly epic response, even had to tell the wife, well if that is the case then the choice is very very easy. Looks like a 300 Blackout is in my future, 6 cavity tumble lube mold ideas anyone? I don't hunt so really doesnt matter as far as expansion. I will have to look into how to make my own gas checks also, have done very little reading on that. Though most of the time I will likely be going with fairly low velocities.

Thanks again

Rich

I have cast for both 300 Blackout and 5.56 in the AR platform. The 300 is much easier. You will not find 6 cavity lee molds for this however I do have a new 2 cavity 155gr .312 lee mold that feeds and functions beautifully.

[GabbyM]

IMHO:

If you are looking to shoot 223 Rem with cast a 1:14” twist barrel is the way to go.

6mm-222 with a 1:14" twist barrel would be high on my list for an AR platform boolit shooter.
6mm-223 (6 x 45mm) would be second.
222 Rem with 1:14 twist third choice. Better case capacity for cast bullets over 23 Rem and you can form cases from junk NATO brass or go up to new Lapua match brass. I've not studies feed reliablility of the 222 in an AR however.
5.56mm NATO and 223 Wylde chambers would be out of contention. Due to there free bore length. I've shot my 5.56 NATO AR with cast with average results but match shooting does not call for average results. Not to say no one should press a 5.56 NATO into service as a cast bullet shooter. Just no reason to buy a barrel chambered in it to shoot cast.

I cast both 22's and 6mm bullets. Like the 22's fine and both my 20" barrel AR's will function with them OK. Thing is I love 6mm boolits shooting from my 243 AI. Right now my 243 AI's have 1:10 twist barrels so they shoot quite a bit slower than my 223's. Nobade in this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?144072-My-new-little-wildcat-6mmX222/ publishes his results with a bolt gun and 6mm-222.

Of course you can get very good velocity from a 1:14" twist 223 Rem chamber and not have all the trouble and expense of wildcat laoding dies and barrels. My 223 Rem VLS with 1:12 twist barrel shoots MOA with no trouble but it's a 200 yard gun. My cast boolit laods in 223 Rem will outshoot M193 NATO Ball at 200 yards. I'ts my understanding that is a common result. But then it's not to hard to out shoot M193 Ball rounds. Only load work I did on 223 Rem with cast is reading here on others results. Then just cast some up with a good hard alloy and started shooting.

For function In AR’s with slower boolits simply cut your recoil spring down until it works with your load. Few dollars will by a spare spring for J bullet loads. No issue with ID as the cut down spring will not have its tight coils at one end.
Both my 20 inch barrel AR's will function with 14.5 gr of H4198 but my new rifle will only lock the bolt back upon the magazine folower instead of back of magazine where it's supposed to be. I don't shoot either AR with cast as I have bolt guns for that function. But then I don't shoot auto laoder pistols anymore either because I'ts to much trouble to pick up brass. Give me revolvers and bolt or lever guns and I'm a happy boy.

222 Rem does not heat up a barrel near as much as the 223 Rem will. In a HB varmint rifle the 223 is good IME for eight shots before heat mirrage fouls your aim. Compared to three shots from a 243 Win, J bullet max loads.
You can always download a 223 Rem to 222 Rem velocity to near neutralize this but the 222 Rem is still a better rapid fire 100 yard round with J bullets IMHO. Not many J bullet shooters limit themselves to a 100 yard rifle target though. With cast bullets the 223 gives you nothing over the 222. I’d be shocked to hear any argument against the 222 in 14 twist not being the boss 22 caliber boolit shooter. Necked up to 6mm should makes it that much better a boolit shooter.

Some may argue a tighter twist used with the RCBS 95 grain cast bullet to be a better choice. My opinion is the 95 grain bullet is the better choice when you have a standard 243 with 10 twist barrel. While shorter 6mm boolits from slower twist barrels will shoot right past the heavy slow ones.

Was all that sufficiently confusing for you all?

[uscra112]

Other than for the challenge of it, I just don't see the worth of casting for the .22 at all. OK, a .22 boolit makes a dandy squirrel or rabbit harvester if you lean that way, but for that business the Hornet is the case to use, not the 5.56, and a good bolt gun or single shot is the rifle, not a semi-auto. For my money, the .25-20 is the smallest boolit I want to be involved with.

[.22-10-45]

Nothing wrong with a challenge..When my custom single shot in .22 Hornet was finally finished..I handloaded every jacketed bullet..including some expensive match grade ones. This established my benchmark..Now I could start doing what I had always dreamed of..shooting cast in a .22 centerfire. A few custom nose-pour moulds, special nose-first sizing dies, a tapered sizer to match throat leade angle..(front band)..and 5 years later..I finally was able to equal the best jacketed match bullet accuracy. But I'm still experimenting..just last weekend was out with re-formed Eagan MX22 (Corbin reloading-press swage dies..reform nose to curved ogive with flat nose). Was grouping in 1/2" at 100yds. New powders to try, small pistol primers, etc. It never ends..I could never go back to merely picking a commercial jacketed bullet out of a box and stuffing into a case again!

[cbrick]

It never ends..I could never go back to merely picking a commercial jacketed bullet out of a box and stuffing into a case again!

:mrgreen: I like the way you think. :drinks:

Rick

[35remington]

No need to cut AR recoil springs down, either, as 18 grains H4895 functions my AR's and locks the bolt back. My midength AR will function on as low as 17 grains.

These are 1-9 twist, capable of handling the standard military jacketed bullets while giving good accuracy with cast as well.

Nothing special or exceptional is needed. Just shoot what you brung.

Let me point out that the functioning I'm speaking of is not speculative. I shoot cast in AR's.

This beats opinions obtained by guessing. Just trying to set the record straight. No need to fear cast in 5.56 AR's, either for function without modification or accuracy.

[badluther]

Other than for the challenge of it, I just don't see the worth of casting for the .22 at all. OK, a .22 boolit makes a dandy squirrel or rabbit harvester if you lean that way, but for that business the Hornet is the case to use, not the 5.56, and a good bolt gun or single shot is the rifle, not a semi-auto. For my money, the .25-20 is the smallest boolit I want to be involved with.

I cast boolits for .223 because it' cheap and faster (to make) than swaging in the quanities that I need. Just depends on your needs.
With that said, is anyone using Tac powder with cast .223 bullets?
I am currently load testing with IMR 4895 but it only fills half the case. Seems to shoot okay, just used to a near full or compressed load.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I have been doing it for years, I guess I'm wasting my tin I'll have to try it with out the tin. Thanks Rick. I do know though that that temp works best for me for 22 boolits.

[JIMinPHX]

The little .22s tend to be more fussy than larger boolits. Imperfections that would be considered minor on a .30 cal, can cause noticeable issues on the little dinky ones. At least that's been my experience.

The .225415 Lyman is a pretty close knock off of standard ball ammo, but with the pointy nose cut off to give you a little flat point. A less expensive option is the Bator that can be had as a special from Midsouth. The Bator is more of a blunt round nose design. Depending on what vintage the mold is, the actual shape varies a fair amount, but I haven't seen any that I would not want to use.

I've found that the little pills are more sensitive to COAL than the larger ones are too. Setting the boolit out so that it just touches the lands at the front of the throat made a big improvement for me.

[fullofdays]

I'm looking at sizing/lubing and installing checks on my Mark VI lubrasizer for my Mihec .22 NATO 4 cavity mould but the Mark VI is a nose first design. Can checks be installed on a Mark VI? What's the smart setup for adding checks and sizing/lubing?

[MBuechle]

First attempt at 5.56. MP226-065 mold, 95-3-2 alloy water dropped, Hornady gas check, BAC lube. LC brass, 18gr. H4895, Tula SRM primers. Rifle is an Armalite M-15 carbine 9 twist. It cycled 100% and bolt locked back on last round. No leading. Ave. velocity: 1963, ES 69. The target was shot at 50 yds. If this had been at 100, I'd have been happy, but I'd like to see a little better accuracy. Guess I'll OCW this up to 20gr. and see what happens.

54850

[runfiverun]

triangle was the first shot and the flyers are un weight sorted...
that's my take on it.
if you shot that with open sights that's quite good.


i use a star and seat checks and lube with no issues.
the ballisticast should be able to do the same thing.

[Larry Gibson]

Ight want to try 18 gr with a 1/2 gr dacron filler and see if you can get some of that vertical string out of the group. I also would switch to a slower powder; suggest RL19, AA4350, H4831SC and RL22.

Larry Gibson

[MBuechle]

You're right, the triangle shot was from a cold, oiled bore. Did not weight sort but will next. Not iron sights, scope. I can't focus the front sight through my distance correction or see the target without it. There are 7, maybe 8 holes on that piece of paper but 10 shots were fired. This is to be practice and ACTS match ammo so I don't need MOA but 2 MOA would be nice. Thanks for critique, will try these ideas.

[Bad Water Bill]

Lookie reel keerful at them lil fellers with a big maginafieng glas fer any wrinklie marks er bubblie areas. Wen u gotcha a bunch ov gooduns then look at their wates. agin threw out ani thing that aint klose ta ter uders.

Girtie maked me tipe dis.[smilie=s:

[Mark85304]

I cast and shot a lot of Lyman 225450 cast in the 80s using straight COWW. They were a breeze to cast and size, even applying the gas check was easy. The only hard part about casting .22 boolits was keeping enough on hand for all the .223 Rem shooting I did. Now I no longer have the 225450 and am casting the 22 Bator, 225415, 225438, and MiHec's 5.56 NATO. Mould temp is the key. Keep it hot and boolits will be near perfect. I usually alternate between using two .22 moulds when casting. While one is warming up, I'm casting with the other. When it gets cold, I put it in the warmer and begin casting with the warmed up mould. It works great. All my cast .22 boolits are water dropped COWW. I shoot .22 Hornet and .223 Rem in a Contender pistol and soon 5.56 NATO in a Ruger Mini-14.

I'm even searching for additional moulds in to have the gas check taken out of the mould for PB silhouette loads in the Hornet (~1600 fps cast hard).

[MBuechle]

Running Miha's 22 NATO mold, I heat on a electric cook top and run the bullets borderline frosty. I find fill-out in the drive bands sensitive to stream rate when using the Lee 10# bottom pour. I need to get a small pot to dedicate to this alloy and try ladle pouring.

[Greg]

MBuechle-

for target accuracy weight sort some boolits...

don't be surprised if your barrel takes 5 or so fouling shots to settle down and group

all in all, that target is a nice start

[Mark85304]

Here are a couple of pictures of a dummy round I made using boolits MiHec's 5.56 NATO boolit mould. Not great quality pictures from my phone camera.

55214 :-) 55215

Cast with 20# wheel weights + .5 # tin.

[popper]

Or just go 308 and have the == 300BO, 30-30 and 308 capability.