.38/.357 cast bullet accuracy

[williamwaco]

Surprising discovery

I am out of almost everything but raw materials.
Out of ammo, out of bullets. ( I don't cast in the summer.)

Started reviewing my odds and ends of bullets to see if I could load up as many as a couple of hundred of anything in .38 Spec.

I found about three possibilities.

I went to my database to see which would produce the most accurate target plinking load.

Since I started my database I have recorded 476 five shot groups with .38/.357 loads. I selected for these calibers and the bullets on hand to see what combination would make nice little patterns at 25 yards. What I found was a surprise.

The most accurate cast bullet loads I have fired since I started recording them on the computer used these bullets - in order of most accurate to least accurate.

Lee C358-148-WC slightly less than 1"
Lyman 35887 148 WC around 1"
Lee C358-158-SWCGC around 1.25"
H&G 51 Around 1.5"
Lee C358-158-RF Around 1.5"
Lee T358-158-SWC Around 1.75"
Lyman 358477 Around 2"
Ballisti-Cast 651 Around 2.5"
Lee TL356-124-TC Around 3"

The H&Gs were lubed with Javelina 50/50 around 1972.
Everything else was lubed with LLA or White label Xlox.

Curiously the Ballisti-Cast 651 is a clone of the H&G 51. I can detect NO difference in these two bullets visually or with a digital caliper.

More curiously, If I omit .38 special loads and include only .357 magnum loads the Ballisti-Cast ties with the H&G at position 4.

The 651 just will not shoot accurately at less than 1200 fps. ( for me ) - I would suspect the TC I use for accuracy testing just doesn't like it but the same gun shoots cloverleaves with the H&G with 2.7gr bullseye and mixed commercial cases.

I was surprised by the accuracy of the wadcutters. I thought they were used mainly for scoring purposes but the SWCs with the same loads are nowhere near as accurate as the wadcutters.

[possom813]

Lee C358-158-RF Around 1.5"


Good to know, that's the mold I just ordered, but without the 'C' preface

[williamwaco]

Lee C358-158-RF Around 1.5"


Good to know, that's the mold I just ordered, but without the 'C' preface


The C just indicated "conventional lube ring". I bet your box will include the "C" prefix.

And I bet you will like that bullet. It is about to become my favorite plinking bullet.


.


.

[earthling121757]

Actually, the "C" means it's a gas check design...

[possom813]

http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/bullet-molds/357-mag-38spec-38-sw-38colt-np/lee-dc-mold-358-158-rf-


This is what I ordered

[Cherokee]

"Lee C358-158-RF Around 1.5"

I get the same or slightly better results from my S&W 686 and Blackhawk.

[fecmech]

My findings are somewhat different in some ways. I'm fortunate in that I have a 50 yd range behind my house and it's is very easy for me to check loads. All my accuracy testing is minimally 50 yds and I want to see multiple groups, no 5 or 6 shot 1 time fluke group.

1 st place would be Lee 120TC and RCBS 124TC average about 1 3/4@ 50 yds
2nd would be H&G #39 158RN Avg about 1.9"@ 50 yds for at least 10 6 shot groups( my silhouette load)
3rd would be a tie between H&G 50 WC(2.3 avg/7 groups) and Lee 158 TLSWC about the same for Lord knows how many groups.
4 th would be 358429 at about 2 3/4" avg@ 50 yds

All of the above are .38 level loads in the 900 fps range with the exception of the H&G #50 WC

When I move to the .357 loads the 358429 comes into it's own and will average 1.9" for 4 groups. That's with a 50/50 WW/lino mix. Using ACWW 4 groups avg 2.7"@ 50 yds. In this case hardness seems to matter. The H&G 39 RN will shoot with the 358429 but no better in mag loads.
I have not tried much of anything else at the magnum level because 358429 would be pretty hard to top and is far enough above my shooting capabilities that any misses are mine.

[williamwaco]

I am envious of your range. I can shoot my scoped TC at 50 yards ( after a one hour drive ) but I can't shoot iron sighted handguns at over 25 yards.

[**oneshot**]

In my Dad's 357 blackhawk, wadcutters are really good as well. On the flip side, Dad always loaded unique and got good accuracy with his 150gr SWC. His pistol really loves keith loaded 38's: 170gr 358429s with 2400. I'd post his load but it's over the new 2400 loads.
Why his gun likes the short brass and short bullets is a mystery.

[fecmech]

I can't shoot iron sighted handguns at over 25 yards.

Were I doing load testing with iron sighted guns, 25 yds would probably be the range I would use. Being 69, irons (on handguns anyway) are only on my carry gun, everything else has a dot sight of one kind or another. For me dot sights allow a fellow to bench a handgun with excellent precision, pretty close to a low powered scope.

[Shiloh]

Lyman 358429 < 2" in .357 Mag.
Lyman 35891 1.5" .38
LEE 125 gr RF just over 1.5" .38

25 yard groups. Groups have shrunk with continued work.
My eyes and shooting skills are not what they were. Day to day changes have been experienced.
I have a new glasses prescription and they'll be done next week.

Shiloh

[Wally]

Surprising discovery

I am out of almost everything but raw materials.
Out of ammo, out of bullets. ( I don't cast in the summer.)

Started reviewing my odds and ends of bullets to see if I could load up as many as a couple of hundred of anything in .38 Spec.

I found about three possibilities.

I went to my database to see which would produce the most accurate target plinking load.

Since I started my database I have recorded 476 five shot groups with .38/.357 loads. I selected for these calibers and the bullets on hand to see what combination would make nice little patterns at 25 yards. What I found was a surprise.

The most accurate cast bullet loads I have fired since I started recording them on the computer used these bullets - in order of most accurate to least accurate.

Lee C358-148-WC slightly less than 1"
Lyman 35887 148 WC around 1"
Lee C358-158-SWCGC around 1.25"
H&G 51 Around 1.5"
Lee C358-158-RF Around 1.5"
Lee T358-158-SWC Around 1.75"
Lyman 358477 Around 2"
Ballisti-Cast 651 Around 2.5"
Lee TL356-124-TC Around 3"

The H&Gs were lubed with Javelina 50/50 around 1972.
Everything else was lubed with LLA or White label Xlox.

Curiously the Ballisti-Cast 651 is a clone of the H&G 51. I can detect NO difference in these two bullets visually or with a digital caliper.

More curiously, If I omit .38 special loads and include only .357 magnum loads the Ballisti-Cast ties with the H&G at position 4.

The 651 just will not shoot accurately at less than 1200 fps. ( for me ) - I would suspect the TC I use for accuracy testing just doesn't like it but the same gun shoots cloverleaves with the H&G with 2.7gr bullseye and mixed commercial cases.

I was surprised by the accuracy of the wadcutters. I thought they were used mainly for scoring purposes but the SWCs with the same loads are nowhere near as accurate as the wadcutters.

I too have found that a .38 Spl with a 148 WC bullet is the most accurate. I now use it for plinking out to 100' or so. As I have a sand trap-bullet catcher, the WC design is ideal for catching them. At the end of a session I will sieve the sand and recover the lead, to reuse. I have found the same phenomenon with other calibers....41, 44, & .45.

[357shooter]

My results have been different too. Wadcutters haven't shot as well as other designs. Here's my top performers, and the best grouping from each:

Rank Mould Weight Group Lube Charge
1 358-429 MM 180 0.380 NRA 6.0, unique
2 360-200-SWC NOE 200 0.570 Darr 3.4, 700X
2 358-429 NOE 168 0.580 Darr 4.7, HP-38
2 358-429 Custom 168 0.580 Darr 4.7, HP-38
2 358-429 Custom 168 0.580 Darr 3.5, Bullseye
358-429 Custom 173 Darr 4.7, HP38
358-429 Custom 173 Darr 12.5, 2400
2 358-429 NOE 168 0.580 Darr 5.1, 700X
2 TL358-158-SWC Lee** 168 0.590 2L/1MS 3.5, 700X
3 TL358-158-SWC Lee 158 0.610 2L/1MS 3.5, HP-38
3 358-429 Custom 180 0.632 Darr in 2 grooves, Lee sized to .360 12.7, H110
3 TL-358-158-SWC Lee** 168 0.668 Darr 5.4, Unique
3 TL-358-158-SWC Lee** 168 0.671 2L/Mi 3.5, 700X
3 TL358-158-SWC Lee** 168 0.680 JPW 3.5, HP-38
3 358-477 Lyman 150 0.690 Darr 3.5, 700X

The bullets weights that seem hearvy for the Lee are due to lapped moulds. They are designdated with the **. MM is a mould from Moutain Moulds. The formatting got messed up, sorry about that. There's a much easier to read spreadsheet at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar4xSLouy2aUdElzVEZPbDMzOExacFBVbi1tUkZVZ UE&authkey=CKzluvMC&authkey=CKzluvMC#gid=0

[williamwaco]

My results have been different too. Wadcutters haven't shot as well as other designs. Here's my top performers, and the best grouping from each:
There's a much easier to read spreadsheet at:


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar4xSLouy2aUdElzVEZPbDMzOExacFBVbi1tUkZVZ UE&authkey=CKzluvMC&authkey=CKzluvMC#gid=0


Thanks for that post, that spread sheet is very informative. Different bullets and different results. That is what I was looking for.

One thing we do agree on though is that that Lee 358-158-SWC is a really good shooter.

[Shiloh]

LEE 125 gr. RF 5 shot group at 10 yards, 1.5" from a rest
Taurus Mod 85.

Shiloh