Powder Coating Boolits [Archive]

Ken73

11-13-2012, 01:02 PM

Fess up - who else is doing it? I have been playing with it a little and just went on a casting marathon last week so I'd have plenty to coat. From my understanding you do not need lube when you powder coat your boolits as the powder (in it's cured state of course) on the boolit provides a barrier from the lead to the bore as a copper jacket does.

I've shot several 300 Blackout boolits that were coated with no ill effects (bore is clean afterwards, certainly no leading!) But several questions remain:

1. Size before or after coating? My thought; size before so the coating provides that barrier and seals the bore better.

2. If no lube is needed, then are lube *grooves* needed? Essentially you are putting on a polymer jacket at that point; are we just conditioned that we need these grooves or could they be removed for powder coated boolits? (i.e. paper patch boolit designs?) These things are pretty slick, and glide right through the sizer as if they were lubed (and lubed very well!)

3. Are gas checks necessary? Will the powder coat serve to eliminate gas cutting at higher speeds? - which brings me to the last question:

4. What's the fastest speed you can send one of these pills down the bore? From what little I've seen most (if not all) people are running these in handguns at or near subsonic speeds. I've been shooting them (I've shot maybe 50-75) at subsonic speeds through my 300 Blackout.

Having said all that - my method so far seems to be working, one of the tricks I'm using is to actually coat the aluminum foil with a fairly dense coat BEFORE I place the boolits on; that way the bottom of the boolit gets coated AND it creates a sort of aluminum foil "gas check" at the same time; meaning there's no exposed lead. I'm still trying to perfect that process though as they're difficult to remove from the foil and when I run them through the sizer, it just makes a collar below the boolit's bottom that I have to pick off with my fingernails. Might have to make a simple trimmer for it.

Here's some 300 Blackout rounds I did a while back for a visual reference:

212026

I cast some 9mm and 45's that I'm coating this week as tests, too. Waiting on brass to come in before I can load them though!

geargnasher

11-13-2012, 03:23 PM

Good work! I don't know what your velocity limit will be before you need gas checks, but it will probably vary with bore size (smaller=faster) and the limiting factor on check-less boolits will likely be accuracy, not leading. You'll just have to try some higher-velocity loads and see.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over the ridge of paint left on the bases after sizing, shoot some with and without and observe the difference. Neither would I worry about exposed lead on the bases, it's not like it will melt from powder gas. I use paper wads on the bases of some plain-based boolits and the discs can be recovered a few yards ahead of the muzzle on the ground with at most a little soot on them.

Gear

PS I'm assuming you've looked over the powder coating thread in this sub-forum? It shouldn't be more than a few pages back, and is a long one.

Ken73

11-13-2012, 09:34 PM

Gear, yes I looked (and even posted in) the other thread; but it was varying in topic (i.e. there are other coatings out there that are not powder coating) and also talked about graphite/moly lube, but didn't get into the specifics of actually powder coating boolits so I thought I'd bring it up separately.

My brass came in this afternoon and I have a handful of coated boolits to try so I'll see about punching some holes with standard commercial ammo, then with mine and see what I come up with.

I wasn't sure about the exposed lead - I've been shooting that in my 300 Blackout with no apparent ill effects. I did cast some lighter boolits (160gn) for the 300, that I want to shoot faster so I'll see how that goes as well. Can you shoot gas-check-type boolits without a check if you're not going too fast?

runfiverun

11-13-2012, 11:35 PM

yep.....

357maximum

11-14-2012, 12:31 AM

loob gruuves give a displacement zone for the lead to go when the lands crush it...which helps relieve internal stress within the boolit. If I were doing what YOU are doing I would use a plainbased or bevel based lee tumblelube type boolit. A properly powdercoated boolit that has been cured should be able to run full speed for the cartridge. That is a W.A.G theory supported by my experience with other "jacket" materials. I had best luck with post sizing the cured boolit but your efforts look better than mine did.

Your powder coating skills far surpass mine. I would like to hear about your method of attack.

Ken73

11-14-2012, 11:12 AM

loob gruuves give a displacement zone for the lead to go when the lands crush it...which helps relieve internal stress within the boolit. If I were doing what YOU are doing I would use a plainbased or bevel based lee tumblelube type boolit.

So far that's all I've shot is the Lee TL309-230-5R for the 300 (in the picture above.) My 9mm and 45 are both standard groove boolits but I'm looking at picking up the tumble lube versions of both. I had thought about the displacement zone but wanted to hear other's input.

A properly powdercoated boolit that has been cured should be able to run full speed for the cartridge. That is a W.A.G theory supported by my experience with other "jacket" materials.

Your W.A.G. is better than mine! I am going to try some 160 grainers for my 300 Blackout at higher speed to see what happens. Really wish I had some sort of boolit trap to recover these. I know there are plans but I don't have the materials at the moment.

I had best luck with post sizing the cured boolit but your efforts look better than mine did.

Your powder coating skills far surpass mine. I would like to hear about your method of attack.

Bought the wife a new toaster oven that she really liked, and took hers for the project. (Wife gets a new one, I get an old one, everyone is happy!) Bought a handheld all-in-one powder coating gun off Amazon (>$40) and already had some powders. Line the tray of the toaster oven with aluminum foil, stand (clean) boolits up on the foil and ground the tray - then coat! I'd suggest ventilating in some fashion as the powder is EXTREMELY fine (as I'm sure you know) and not necessarily good for you. I wear a dust mask when I coat just to be safe and have a fan blowing out the door directly behind where I coat. There's no fumes of course, but that fine particulate dust isn't good for your lungs. Make sure you give it a good heavy coat and bake at 400 degrees for 20+ minutes. Ding! Boolits are done. The trickiest part is standing up the tall skinny boolits and not knocking them over, followed by getting them off the foil as the cured coat forms a small "fillet" at the bottom.

If there's any interest, I can post a step-by-step.

geargnasher

11-14-2012, 12:13 PM

I'm interested in how they shoot, accuracy, fouling, etc. Once you get this method all proven out at the range, a short tutorial of the process with pics would be very much appreciated. We get the idea, but the devil is always in the details.

My only concern is that 400F is pretty near the anneal point of many lead alloys. If you get them too hot and cool them slowly they will become very soft. Now, if you were able to take them from the oven and dump them all into a bucket of water at once without messing up the powder coat, you could harden and coat at the same time.

Gear

felix

11-14-2012, 12:38 PM

400 degrees is a slow degrees for biggie diameter boolits which means baking at more than an hour for a good heat treatment. What happens to the paint when 20 minutes is exceeded, like for an hour? However, for hunting boolits the 20 minutes might be appropriate. Water jug tests required? What happens at 450 degrees for 30 minutes? Boolits more accurate than 400 at 20? Fun and games galore! ... felix

runfiverun

11-14-2012, 01:01 PM

i don't think 20 minutes is going to affect the alloy all that much.
i'd be more comfortable at 375 though.
i'm seeing a possibility of shooting soft alloys at higher velocitys though.

bstarling

11-14-2012, 01:03 PM

Very interesting, one quick question. Is the coating gun the Craftsman one on Amazon?

Thanks for the idea!

Bill

felix

11-14-2012, 01:13 PM

Lead alloy looses all tempering at 300 degrees, 200 is entirely safe. ... felix

Ken73

11-14-2012, 01:20 PM

Very interesting, one quick question. Is the coating gun the Craftsman one on Amazon?

Yep! I actually have the big Harbor Freight one as well from back when I coated car parts, but the Craftsman one is so much simpler and easier to use. You can still get the additional cups through other vendors, so I bought 4 additional ones for the powders I typically use (transparent red/green/blue/copper.)

I'll keep testing and report back as I can..

felix

11-14-2012, 01:28 PM

Ken, the colors look interesting. Use military standards? Black for HARD, red for SOFT boolits. ... felix

runfiverun

11-14-2012, 02:00 PM

i was thinking slump from a tin alloy in the heat.
pulling off a 30/40-1 type alloy at 24-2500 fps would have some usefulness around here.

bmiller

11-14-2012, 02:14 PM

I have powder coated pistol bullets with good results. I am extremely intrigued by your black out bullets. I would love to see what 160 and even 125 grain bullets would do. The powder coating seems to be very tough.

357maximum

11-14-2012, 10:43 PM

bstarling

11-15-2012, 12:10 AM

Yep! I actually have the big Harbor Freight one as well from back when I coated car parts, but the Craftsman one is so much simpler and easier to use. You can still get the additional cups through other vendors, so I bought 4 additional ones for the powders I typically use (transparent red/green/blue/copper.)

I'll keep testing and report back as I can..

Thanks Ken, just ordered one. Can't wait to get my hands on it.

Bill:drinks:

bstone5

11-15-2012, 02:15 AM

A conductive coating could be applied to the aluminum foil before the bullets are set up.

A thin layer of carbon from an acetylene cutting torch with the oxygen turned off should make a conductive coating of carbon that the powder coating would not stick to the aluminum foil.

I too apply powder coat to pistol bullets with very good results.

The powder coat results in no lead in the barrel and the barrel is very clean after several hundred of fired rounds.

The next time I coat some bullets I will try coating the foil with carbon from a cutting torch.

I tried some case lube one time in a very thin layer on the foil but the lube sort of insulated the bullets and the powder coat did not stick very well.

Picture of bullets for 380 Auto, powder coared with cola can gas checks installed

Just an idea on how to keep the powder coating from sticking to the foil.

Ken73

11-15-2012, 10:41 AM

The real issue with the powder coating and the foil isn't so much the conductivity, as it is that the powder just "falls" there anyway, and forms a small fillet there during curing. If no gas check is needed then it's not an issue at all; plain base boolits will have the fillet removed when resizing and gas check boolits won't really matter (though I would be concerned about it affecting the flight and causing the boolit to tumble.) The solution there is either to add a gas check or modify the mold to make it a plain base (if indeed we can run these boolits at higher speeds with no issues.)

wwboolitmaker

11-20-2012, 11:04 PM

Hey guys....been searching far and wide for more info on this. I got my powder in yesterday and gun will be here tomorrow. I have about 160 of the blackout 230 grain boolits made up and Im gonna give them a coat of flat black powder coat. I mean after all it is a "blackout" right??? What do you clean the bullets with before coating??

runfiverun

11-21-2012, 12:52 AM

i'd use acetone.

olaf455

11-21-2012, 01:11 AM

I have been powder coating bullets for 308 Winchester. I size to 308, powder coat, and then size to 309. initial sizing is performed with case lube as a lubricant through a Lee push through size die. then I use dish detergent and water to wash them, and rinse several times. then when they are completely dry, I powdercoat, bake, and then use a Lee push through sizer to size to 309 using no lubricant.
my alloy this far has been wheel weights with 2 percent tin. after shooting several dozen, my boar actually appears to be cleaner than when I started. so far the only downside I have seen is I have not been able to exceed 3 moa.
I recently cast some more bullets out of 50/50 wheel weights and Lino type. once I get them coated loaded and fired I will post my results.

bmiller

11-21-2012, 11:33 AM

Well I could not take it anymore , just ordered a 300 blk parts kit. I can't wait to try powder coating bullets for it!

wallenba

11-21-2012, 11:43 AM

DUH, HUH, WHAT? Where have I been? I knew they had plastic coated bullets, but didn't know you could brew your own at home! Where can I learn the process?

wwboolitmaker

11-21-2012, 12:26 PM

Wallenba, Im gonna powder coat some tonight and take pics along the way. I will post them after I cook up some. I have the powder sitting right here on my desk and Im waiting on UPS to drop off the gun any minute. Im gonna powder coat them over a screen mesh so hopefully some of the powder will fall right through and not make the "fillet" at the bottom.

wwboolitmaker

11-21-2012, 03:27 PM

Ok fellas, here is my bag of flat black powder coat and my gun. The gun's handle was broke but for thirty bucks with free shipping I am just gonna tape it up and enjoy!!

http://s18.postimage.org/whb0yomth/Resized_Image_1353525485597.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/whb0yomth/)

http://s15.postimage.org/6l9vmp6x3/IMG_20121121_131848.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/6l9vmp6x3/)

Michael J. Spangler

11-21-2012, 05:01 PM

great thread.

i have a powder coating set up that i have only used few times. i think i'll be powder coating boolits tonight.

Jailer

11-21-2012, 08:23 PM

Cured powder coated lead is tougher than woodpecker lips. I have actually smashed large coated jighead totally flat without splitting/cracking the coating. My coating was pro-tec powder paint for fishin lurs.

I personally do not see a problem with the heat for curing as I believe anything a bit harder than pure lead will survive well even at J-word speeds. But I confess to not actually giving it a thorough testing as my application method sucked. I will look into the spray gun and give it a whirl at full throttle someday as this issue will not quite leave the ol grey matter. For right now though gun seasaon beckons me.

Mike, I've got a few of these here at the house if you wanted to try some out. I'm in the same boat as you though waiting out rifle season. As soon as season is over I'm going to load up some of the 312-155-2R's that Ken was gracious enough to coat for me to test. The boolits are ACWW and will be tried with and without gas checks.

Stay tuned.

wwboolitmaker

11-22-2012, 09:49 AM

We guys I powdered some boolits last night, I believe they came out great for my first attempt!! I even hammered one flat after coating....the finish didn't even think of chipping or coming off.

http://s17.postimage.org/z8rycj8wb/2012_11_21_20_36_56_802.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/z8rycj8wb/)

http://s14.postimage.org/hc73vklpp/2012_11_21_18_19_34_48.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/hc73vklpp/)

http://s7.postimage.org/av76itmdz/2012_11_21_18_26_29_993.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/av76itmdz/)

http://s17.postimage.org/ardmtvah7/2012_11_21_18_56_31_683.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/ardmtvah7/)

[url=http://postimage.org/image/5v4rjeapb/]http://s11.postimage.org/5v4rjeapb/2012_11_21_20_24_27_210.jpg[/url

bmiller

11-22-2012, 10:59 AM

You should try other colors. I took bright red ones to a local IDPA match and got a lot of funny looks.

wwboolitmaker

11-22-2012, 11:02 AM

Thats the only color I got for now....I bought the flat black for the 230 gr 300aac bullets

Ken73

11-22-2012, 11:05 AM

We guys I powdered some boolits last night, I believe they came out great for my first attempt!! I even hammered one flat after coating....the finish didn't even think of chipping or coming off.

Awesome! Did you have any issues with the little "fillet" of powder coat (once cured) around the base, or getting them off the aluminum foil? They look great!

Just a suggestion (if you haven't already) but put the powder in a plastic jar (preferably a new one, not a used one.) Drop in one of those "do not eat" silica gel packets to keep the powder dry, otherwise it will cake up and be useless unless you sift it. I found some nice plastic jars at the hobby store (Hobby Lobby) for $2 or so.

wwboolitmaker

11-22-2012, 11:10 AM

Ken73 thanks!! I had a little fillet on some...just gonna take some 320 grit sandpaper and spin the end of the bullet on it to remove it. Everyone is thinking its so much work to do...its really not. I could coat 30 bullets in about 2 minutes. Thanks for the tip on the preserving the powder, I didn't even think about that. The flat black looks mean!!!

bmiller

11-22-2012, 11:15 AM

You do have a point, they do look cool in a stealth fighter kind of way!

Tonto

11-22-2012, 11:21 AM

wwboolitmaker

11-22-2012, 11:42 AM

Tonto I think it would be too thick but it is def worth a shot. When you use the gun it doesn't build up much. All mold lines are still clearly evident after applying and baking.

bmiller

11-22-2012, 11:58 AM

I tried that coating was clumpy, and I could not achieve good results. It is worth a shot though.

olaf455

11-22-2012, 12:07 PM

Wonder if you can powder coat without the. Gun, much like a dip into tumble lube and only coating the bearing surfaces? I powder coat jigs and buzz baits using a heat gun and for those who want to try this, I bet this technique would work. Maybe I will give it a try....I wonder too if some colors work better than others and I suspect the ones with glitter would introduce an abrasive that wouldn't be good...interesting thread.

This was tried on another thread, it was impossible to get a uniform thickness of the powder coat.
I have tried powder by the pound's liquid to powder and an airbrush, also difficult to get a uniform coating.

wwboolitmaker

11-26-2012, 01:14 AM

Awesome! Did you have any issues with the little "fillet" of powder coat (once cured) around the base, or getting them off the aluminum foil? They look great!

Just a suggestion (if you haven't already) but put the powder in a plastic jar (preferably a new one, not a used one.) Drop in one of those "do not eat" silica gel packets to keep the powder dry, otherwise it will cake up and be useless unless you sift it. I found some nice plastic jars at the hobby store (Hobby Lobby) for $2 or so.

How do your boolits shoot?? Haven't had a chance to load any of mine yet. Im anxious to shoot some and recover them so I can inspect them. I really have high hopes for this!!

Ken73

11-27-2012, 09:39 AM

How do your boolits shoot?? Haven't had a chance to load any of mine yet. Im anxious to shoot some and recover them so I can inspect them. I really have high hopes for this!!

So far I had some function checks I had to do; the first ones I cast had some serious issues, which turned out to mostly be the follower in my magazine tilting (apparently I grabbed the only mag in my set that didn't have an anti-tilt follower.) I got that fixed but haven't had time to test. I'm going to try shoot some this week though.

What few I've shot (around 50 or so?) I've shot at a steel target and I'm easily able to nail it at 50 yards. No leading, nothing left in the barrel.

I've got about 25 loaded up that I wanted to send over the chrono to see how well they work.

willie_pete

11-27-2012, 11:50 AM

I've also powder coated. Lately it has been 148 grain wadcutters for my Model 52. Shot 90 rounds at 25 and 50 yards yesterday. As clean and accurate or better than lubed WC's. Nothing in the barrel. I am using Harbor Freight's powder coating gun and paint.

WP

Mud Eagle

11-27-2012, 12:15 PM

How does the cost of powder coating (both equipment setup and cost of the raw materials to coat) compare to lubrisizing or tumble lube?

willie_pete

11-27-2012, 01:51 PM

HR has a system @ $60.00, but it needs an air compressor which I had. 16 oz. Of powder coating is $5.00. I haven't counted how many bullets you get out of 16 oz. Yet.

WP

Joe504

11-27-2012, 02:33 PM

I am also interested in how many boolits you can coat with a set amount of powder

Digger

11-27-2012, 10:07 PM

Okay , now you guys have my curiosity going also .... among other questions .... what does that Harbor Freight powder coat consist of ? .... namely would it be safe to use ? ...

digger

willie_pete

11-27-2012, 10:25 PM

No help on what is in it. The container does not list any ingredients; only the normal dust safety precautions; do not breath, dust mask, goggles, adequate ventilation, etc.

WP

Digger

11-27-2012, 10:32 PM

Okay , now you guys have my curiosity going also .... among other questions .... what does that Harbor Freight powder coat consist of ? .... namely would it be safe to use ? ...
digger

Sorry .. should have added .. , "in the barrel ?"

RED333

11-27-2012, 10:50 PM

Well if this aint a hoot!
Diff colors for diff weight boolits.
I am watching this close, just might do me some.

wwboolitmaker

11-28-2012, 12:41 AM

Ok guys... i just got some red today from harbor freight. I done a few 45 and a few 44. I found it works better if you get the bullets pretty warm before you apply the powder. This stuff is tough!!

http://s12.postimage.org/vm75uxpux/2012_11_27_22_21_48_386.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/vm75uxpux/)

wwboolitmaker

11-28-2012, 12:43 AM

I am also interested in how many boolits you can coat with a set amount of powder

I would say you could easily do 200 boolits with a pound of powder.

bmiller

11-28-2012, 07:02 AM

I have coated at least 300 and have a lot left. I think the more you do at a time the less over spray you have. Once a good efficient process is found, I think it will be extremely cheap.

willie_pete

11-28-2012, 08:23 AM

I do 150 bullets at a time. My guess is that 16 oz. would do close to 1,000. I've done about 500 so far and at least half a container left.

WP

xyankeeworkshop

11-28-2012, 01:19 PM

This subject is all of a sudden very relevant to my interests.

Anyone tried powdercoated boolits out of an OEM polygonal Glock barrel to see how they behave?

willie_pete

11-28-2012, 02:06 PM

I've shot 147 gr painted bullets through g17 and g34. No visible stuff in the barrel, but i haven't shot a lot of them through those guns. The different colors generate some interest at the matches though.

WP

bpratl

11-30-2012, 07:35 AM

Are the bullets baked with the tin foil?

willie_pete

11-30-2012, 10:07 AM

I fill three plastic cartridge inserts with whatever bullet I am going to use, lay a tinfoil covered steel plate on top and then invert everything. This leaves a plate full of rows of bullets. These are then powder coated with Harbor Freights paint gun. The plate is then carefully moved to a preheated toaster oven for about 20 minutes. This does leave a fillet of paint after you take them off the tinfoil but it is removed when I size them. So far they are working good.

WP

xyankeeworkshop

11-30-2012, 10:25 AM

Does the foil want to tear or stick to the boolit bases like accidental gas checks when you pop them off after baking?

I'm about ready to give this a whirl. It may end up taking me about the same time as dipping with 45/45/10 or pan lubing , but the upside of getting this process to work would be huge for me. I'm developing an irrational dread of wax and Alox.

ryokox3

11-30-2012, 10:41 AM

This is interesting, Are you sizing like they were jacketed or as a lead boolit .001 larger?

olaf455

11-30-2012, 12:04 PM

This is interesting, Are you sizing like they were jacketed or as a lead boolit .001 larger?

I do .001 over.

ryokox3

11-30-2012, 12:41 PM

Thanks for the quick reply olaf455. I'm definitely going to try this out.

wwboolitmaker

11-30-2012, 06:39 PM

I just bought a .309 push through sizer for my lee 230 gr blackout boolits. I they measured .309 as cast and now they measure .311 to .312 with powder coat. Im going to load some this weekend and see how they do. I cant see how these boolits could cause any leading, I believe the correct sizing is just going to affect accuracy.

Ken73

11-30-2012, 07:08 PM

So I found a somewhat decent solution to the filet that appears to be working - it requires a tad bit of prep work (and a handful of gas checks) but it's a huge improvement over me tearing the foil off the bottom.

First I place a handful of gas checks (I've been using 30 cal) upside down on the bare baking sheet:

54996

Then I place my foil over the top and wrap it over nice and tight:

54997

Then I simply take something soft (bunched up paper towel, sponge, whatever I have laying around) and impress the gas checks underneath so they sit up higher:

54998

When I'm done, it looks like this, and I set the boolits directly on top of the gas checks. If there's a fillet, it doesn't really form very well and most of my boolits just pop right off (instead of being stuck.) For anything larger than the gas check they really do come off easier! Even for 30 cals it makes it easy.

54999

I thought about using neodymium magnets (so they'd stay in place easier) but they lose their magnetism with the elevated heat. The gas checks do the job nicely anyway.

RED333

11-30-2012, 07:37 PM

I have had my brain in gear on this, What about steel pins to put the boolits on, keeps them raised
so not to get a edge on the bottom. I have not tried yet, just thinking out loud.

RED333

11-30-2012, 07:37 PM

What about putting the boolits on pins to keep them up off the foil?

olaf455

11-30-2012, 07:53 PM

Others have used hex nuts to good effect. Slightly smaller than the boolit.

Ken73

11-30-2012, 08:55 PM

Problem isn't keeping them off the foil - if you put the pins (or gas checks for that matter) on top of the foil, then the fillet forms on the pin or gas check and the foil - meaning you have to tear the pin or gas check off the foil to reuse it. Far easier to put the gas checks underneath - then what little fillet there is (if any) is still boolit > foil. I had originally tried putting the gas checks on top of the foil and that just made it a big pain to get the gas checks off the boolit and you got powder coated gas checks (albeit, only around the rim of course.) With them underneath the foil, the boolits pop off with ease, some of them don't form anything at all and they just lift off as you'd want them to.

Small hex nuts would work fine too most likely.

Ken73

11-30-2012, 10:58 PM

Another issue I'm running into is coating long boolits (i.e. the Lee TL309-230-5R for the 300 Blackout) - if you space them too close together, you get a "shadow" on the boolits behind the front row you're spraying. You have to space these particular ones out a bit more than handgun or shorter rifle boolits or you won't get complete coverage. Handgun and short rifle boolits don't really have this problem.

bpratl

12-02-2012, 08:10 AM

Has anyone done any chronograph or pressure checks for powder coated vs. lubed bullets?

xyankeeworkshop

12-02-2012, 09:37 AM

This subject really seems to be uncharted waters in terms of best practices, materials, chrono, pressure, etc. Google searches pretty much all lead to this site and this thread.

I hope to have a HF powdercoat gun in hand today to get some first-hand knowledge on the subject.

I'd also love to see what PC boolits could do in an AR. As it stands, we know cast can work if you have reasonable expectations on performance. But could PC bump the envelope out somewhat toward j-word levels?

Jailer

12-02-2012, 10:47 AM

Has anyone done any chronograph or pressure checks for powder coated vs. lubed bullets?

This subject really seems to be uncharted waters in terms of best practices, materials, chrono, pressure, etc. Google searches pretty much all lead to this site and this thread.

I hope to have a HF powdercoat gun in hand today to get some first-hand knowledge on the subject.

I'd also love to see what PC boolits could do in an AR. As it stands, we know cast can work if you have reasonable expectations on performance. But could PC bump the envelope out somewhat toward j-word levels?

If everything works out right I should have some results this week.

bmiller

12-02-2012, 07:30 PM

I had some 9mm pressure tested . Used powder coated bullets and moly coated bullets. Pressures and velocity were the same.

popper

12-03-2012, 11:49 AM

I wonder if PC could replace GCs. Possibly make a slurry of evaporating solvent, dip and cook with the CB on it's nose? The nose doesn't really need to be coated. Like a plastic paper patch? Use a IR lamp instead of the toaster oven? Looks like I'll make a trip to HF this week. More fun. Never done any PC, is it applied electrostaticly? Time to make a wire basket. I coated the base of pistol CBs before and it worked well, just a PITA.

wwboolitmaker

12-03-2012, 12:09 PM

olaf455

12-03-2012, 12:14 PM

popper

12-03-2012, 01:42 PM

A product called liquid 2 powder is available for 'dipping'. It appears to be water based. Powder materials used appears to be polyethylene or polyurethane. Curing temp is ~ 350-400 and IR lamps can be used. Not sure this is an advantage to the polyethylene liquid I'm using to 'dip'. I didn't get leading in 40SW, but didn't resize so I got a lot of scraped lead left in the bbl. Accuracy wasn't worse than with LLA. Pressure was higher due to oversized CBs, like I FELT it, didn't cause any problems.

wwboolitmaker

12-03-2012, 02:20 PM

Jacketed velocities are easily achieved, but due to lower friction a slightly faster powder needs used. The only downside I have found with PC boolits in my AR has been getting groups smaller than 3moa... I'll be trying harder alloy next time. The possibility exists that powder coat is just too slick...

What boolit are you using in you ar? Do you size them after coating? What powder are you using? What speeds are you shooting them at? Just a little info please so I know what to avoid or I know where to start. Thanks

xyankeeworkshop

12-03-2012, 02:25 PM

The possibility of using PC'd boolits in an AR is (IMO) a big, big deal given the expense of getting started in swaging from rimfire cases. I'd also imagine there is a less-slick powder out there somewhere.

Olaf, did you get a chance to get a good look at the before and after condition of your barrel? I know PC is tough and slick stuff, but j-word velocity in a 1:7,8, or 9 twist...yeeesh.

Catsmith

12-03-2012, 07:35 PM

thinking about a way to leave the front end exposed, making like a soft point for hunting. thinking of aluminumwith holes to place tip in. for instance swc with hole for rim to rest on. could you soften alloy a little for better expansion while the pc acts like jacket for the trip down the tube. am i off base with this?

olaf455

12-03-2012, 08:29 PM

I have a DPMS LR 308, I use the lee 309 170 grain round flat boolit. I sized to .308, coated, then sized .309.
The bore condition prior to firing, was cleaned and all copper removed. The bore condition after firing was cleaner yet... Smooooth, very shiny. Alloy was wheel weights plus about 1 percent tin, air cooled.
I used Powder by the Pound's liquid to powder product as well as their deep burgundy metallic polyester TGIC powder.
I tried coating them by tumbling them in the mixture, which is 50 percent powder and 50 percent liquid by weight. It did not work as the liquid product seems to be nothing more than distilled water with an additive to reduce surface tension. Possibly soap. however when it dries, it is no different than if you had magnetically applied the powder. Any touch wipes it off... Then I tried an airbrush and it worked well, however it is difficult to coat evenly.
I have tried a verity of loads from 2000 to 2400 fps, and all have given 3 to 4 inch groups at 100 yards.

Coming up, I'll try harder alloy, sizing larger and static coating. Possibly find something else to mix the powder coat with that will dry hard allowing boolits to be handled prior to baking. Any ideas?

olaf455

12-03-2012, 09:20 PM

.

Olaf, did you get a chance to get a good look at the before and after condition of your barrel? I know PC is tough and slick stuff, but j-word velocity in a 1:7,8, or 9 twist...yeeesh.

I have not had the chance to inspect any recovered boolits yet, however I have several gallon milk jugs full of water waiting and ready to go... Bore indicates no problems whatsoever.

thinking about a way to leave the front end exposed, making like a soft point for hunting. thinking of aluminumwith holes to place tip in. for instance swc with hole for rim to rest on. could you soften alloy a little for better expansion while the pc acts like jacket for the trip down the tube. am i off base with this?

I was thinking of building a jig by taking a board just smaller than my baking tray, drilling holes for the noses to fit snugly into and yet be loose enough to fall out when inverted. Insert boolits nose first, spray powder, cover with parchment paper and then baking tray. Invert, remove jig, bake... Sounds good in theory right?... Course that's for liquid2powder... Possibly alum plate for static application?

Catsmith

12-03-2012, 09:38 PM

i was thinking of alum for just that reason. i guess you could put foil over the block you were thinking of and punch the tips in the foil for conductivity

popper

12-04-2012, 12:41 AM

Olaf455 mine is lr308 also best results so far with 310 sized pure & 2.5 sb. I use a wfn cb so all I need is a grid to keep upright. I'like to try heating first and then spraying the PC on. I suspect you are right, it can be thinned with water.

ryokox3

12-04-2012, 01:31 AM

Just a quick question as I wait for the bbt to deliver my coating supplies. Are you attaching the ground electrode to the aluminum foil or the plate/broiler pan under it?

olaf455

12-04-2012, 01:43 AM

The foil works quite well from the many posts I have read.

wwboolitmaker

12-04-2012, 01:46 AM

Def the foil. Trying warming the boolits just a bit. It will help to get a nice even coat. Just barely warm to the touch.

ryokox3

12-04-2012, 01:52 AM

Thanks guys, I got a little confused when I read the incstructions on the powder coating gun saying to cover parts with foil that you did not want coated... I thought it might be an insulator. I'm quite looking forward to trying this out once the rest of my materials get here.

xyankeeworkshop

12-04-2012, 10:18 AM

The idea of flipping the boolit and getting a nice smooth coating on the base is real attractive in simulating a FMJ or GC. But how would you keep the "fillet" of baked powder from forming near the tip of the boolit where it rests in the jig? That isn't something that would be smoothed out with a trip through a sizing die like a fillet at the base would.

Catsmith

12-04-2012, 10:41 AM

never dealt with pc before. trying to figure that part myself

xyankeeworkshop

12-04-2012, 11:10 AM

The first guy to figure out how to balance a lead round nose on the pointy end of a nail long enough to coat and bake it wins 16 Trillion internet points. Make me proud!

olaf455

12-04-2012, 11:14 AM

The first guy to figure out how to balance a lead round nose on the pointy end of a nail long enough to coat and bake it wins 16 Trillion internet points. Make me proud!

Switch to hollow points, pay up...lol...

Sent from a cold damp basement near you.

wwboolitmaker

12-04-2012, 11:22 AM

Hollow points is what i have been thinkin, you could weld nails to a piece of steel. Cover the steel and most of the nails with hi temp tape. Just leave the tip of the nail exposed to rest the bullet on. This should acually work great. I dont have a hollow point mold but if someone wants to send me a few i will try it out.

xyankeeworkshop

12-04-2012, 11:24 AM

I predicted your treachery and carefully laid out my challenge for LRN's only. You'll also notice I said "balance" so you wouldn't be tempted to impale the boolit onto the pointed end of the nail with a framing hammer.

Internet point payment denied!

xyankeeworkshop

12-04-2012, 11:30 AM

The "bed of nails" thing is where I was headed as well. Maybe some carefully-crafted and insulated jig made from hardware cloth snipped open to just contact the boolit side at a couple tiny points would hold a non-hollowpoint upside down for coating.

olaf455

12-04-2012, 11:33 AM

popper

12-04-2012, 11:42 AM

Just guessing, but base irregularity is worse than tip, for accuracy. The pics I've seen of recovered CB show the base band strength is the most important. If the 'fillet' is just forward of the front drive band or in the crimp groove, it shouldn't make a difference. You can't size the nose anyway. I doubt if they use soap in the fluid as it would leave a residue in the PC when baked. Maybe antifreeze, as it is the base for many of the plastics? I think my plan is to wet spray nose down on PB CBs @ 150F, then put them in the oven @ 350F. I think my old air brush has a large enough orifice to handle the powder. Now I just have to find it - haven't seen it since I was doing N gauge trains for my kid - like 30 yrs ago. Otherwise I have a HVLP cup gun I can use. Try 2 pieces of MDF, one with holes and one without. Foil in between, and grounded.

jkpq45

12-04-2012, 11:43 AM

Anyone gotten sub-3-moa accuracy from these guys?

Needless to say, Santa Claus has been asked for the HF PC kit!

popper

12-04-2012, 12:26 PM

it is no different than if you had magnetically applied the powder. Any touch wipes it off... Then I tried an airbrush and it worked well, however it is difficult to coat evenly. magnetically applied - how'd you do that? I assume you used the liquid with the airbrush. I HT COWW with shot added for my lr-308 carbine. With PC I think sizing should be the more important aspect of accuracy.

olaf455

12-04-2012, 12:40 PM

rather than magnetically applied, I should have said electrostaticly applied. As in the normal way of applying powder coat with a gun.

Sent from a cold damp basement near you.

jkpq45

12-04-2012, 12:43 PM

My other question involves feeding the HF PC gun with air--manual states 3.5 CFM at 30 PSIg is max air consumption and my compressor is little.

What's the smallest compressor being used to apply the powder through the HF gun?

xyankeeworkshop

12-04-2012, 12:57 PM

As far as I can tell, even your typical 2hp, 4 gal pancake compressor used for shooting brad nails can push 3-4 CFM at 90psi. 30psi shouldn't be much problem. The powder really just mists out of the gun in a relatively pathetic puff compared to wet spraying with a cup gun.

popper

12-04-2012, 01:07 PM

Evidently there is also a technique of blowing the powder on through a long teflon tube. The teflon generates static charge. A turkey baster?

wwboolitmaker

12-04-2012, 01:08 PM

Ok, crazy idea. Take a piece of sheet metal and put proper size holes in it for the nose to sit at desired depth. Preheat the bullets slightly to insure a good coat. Lay the sheel metal flush with a water bed of mineral water. Ground the metal sheet and spray the tail of the boolits. Carefully lift the boolits from the water bed and transfer them into the oven. The water should catch and suspend the overspray and when you lift them out of the water you shouldnt have the notorious "fillet". Does this sound like it could work?

popper

12-04-2012, 01:58 PM

Re-read what you said - I get the idea - metal below the water, suck the powder off if it floats. I think it would eliminate the fillet but PC the plate. Maybe just rinse the powder off the plate with slow flowing water? Unless the metal is thick, the CBs will tilt and maybe fall over.

olaf455

12-04-2012, 02:21 PM

Quite possible.
Another idea would be spray them nose down as we have beeen discussing, then line the baking tray with parchment paper. invert the lined baking tray, place on base of bullets, and then right side up the whole thing. carefully remove the jig from the top of the boolits and bake. the partment paper should peal off of the boolits very easily, then I would run them through a nose first sizer, this should take care of the fillet.

Sent from a cold damp basement near you.

xyankeeworkshop

12-04-2012, 02:27 PM

Does the fillet shear off to expose the lead below after running it thru a sizing die or does it merely flatten out to blend in with the rest of the powdercoat?

lavenatti

12-04-2012, 02:37 PM

I spray all mine nose up. I don't really worry about the fillets with plain base boolits, they are ugly but sizing takes care of them..

For gas check bullets:
I size them and clean them.
I drilled a grid of holes in a piece of pine that fits in my toaster oven, the holes are just the right size to push the base of the gas-check type boolits into the hole snugly up to the driving band.
Cover the board with foil, run your fingertip over the foil to outline the holes.
Insert boolits (without gas checks) into the holes all the way to the first driving band.
Powder coat and bake.

They are still a pain in the neck to get the foil off of but the gas checks are no harder to put on, the fillet around the base goes away when sizing again and they don't fall over when moving them around.

With one small (reusable) board I can do 100 .223 boolits at a time. Just watch your spacing and drill the holes all the way through the board - the insertion of the boolits into the holes cuts out little circles of aluminum foil and they get stuck into holes. Easy to push them through, difficult to pick out.

xyankeeworkshop

12-04-2012, 03:29 PM

I'm leaning toward trying out a method where I use a piece of welded wire mesh (1/2" hardware cloth) with every other intersection snipped out with dykes to make dozens of little 4-pronged holders to support the boolit noses so I can coat with the base up. Think engagement ring mounting prongs. Dozens of them.

The mesh would have to set on a foil-lined carrier tray because it'll be pretty flimsy when loaded with boolits. My question is about what will happen to the hardware cloth after multiple coatings. After the first coating, will subsequent coatings want to stick to the point where it becomes a brick or will any new powder want to shed off? Maybe press a sheet of parchment paper over the prongs to catch overspray?

popper

12-04-2012, 04:18 PM

Well it is a good day. Took 10# of brass & primers to the recylers (1.70/#) got a $10 gift card for the party Sunday, lady in front of me at HF gave me a coupon so I got $1 off the jug of PC. Still have $5 in my pocket. Play time tomorrow. xyankeeworkshop - I think if you use the grid for support and rest the noses on foil (grounded) you won't care about the grid wire. Replace the foil for the next shot. That is my reasoning for the MDF, it drills clean & easily, takes the heat and provides support. Load it, heat it, spray it, cook it.

Jailer

12-04-2012, 09:45 PM

Christmas boolits all loaded and ready for the range. :D

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/powdercoatedboolits.jpg

RED333

12-04-2012, 09:53 PM

I am buying a PC kit from HF this weekend and doing this.

popper

12-05-2012, 12:50 AM

lavenatti - you are saying that GC are still needed for HV rifle? Because the base is not covered or the coating isn't strong enough? I presently don't have trouble with leading or accuracy even in AR, but would like to replace the 3 cent GC with a 1/2 cent coating, if it will work.

ryokox3

12-05-2012, 03:11 AM

Jailer, Those look so nice. Really like the Christmas theme

lavenatti

12-05-2012, 08:30 AM

popper - I guess I'm still using the gas checks out of habit. I need to try without or get some more PB molds.

olaf455

12-05-2012, 12:04 PM

popper - I guess I'm still using the gas checks out of habit. I need to try without or get some more PB molds.

I use gc boolits with no gas checks, as long a the gc recess has coating in it. No leading.

Sent from a cold damp basement in the frozen wasteland of northwestern Wisconsin...

Bad Water Bill

12-05-2012, 12:08 PM

This is an interesting subject BUT what if you do not have an air compressor?

Did I miss that suggestion somewhere?

olaf455

12-05-2012, 12:11 PM

Sears all in one unit perhaps. I have tried the liquid powder application method from powder by the pound, it does not seem to work very well.

Sent from my kitchen table, amidst the chaos...

xyankeeworkshop

12-05-2012, 12:14 PM

Bill,

The $40 Craftsman unit sold thru Amazon does not need a compressor. It's essentially a hairdryer that shoots powder. The reviews say it works great as long as you aren't the type to abuse tools.

I decided to order one of those instead of the HF unit.

Ken73

12-05-2012, 12:27 PM

The ~$30 Craftsman unit works just fine. I have the HF unit as well but didn't want to deal with an air compressor in my office where I cast/coat so I got the Sears unit off Amazon. Summit Racing carries extra powder cups for colors you use often for $10 each. There's a few tips I put up on Amazon for the unit, too.

xyankeeworkshop

12-05-2012, 02:30 PM

I'm getting ahead of myself as I don't even have my PC kit yet, but what are you guys doing about powder recovery and reuse?

I was thinking about knocking together a melamine box in which to shoot powder and contain the loose stuff so it doesn't get all over and wasted. If you pre-heat a tray of boolits and coat them, can you lightly blow any overspray off the tray and collect it or is that to be considered lost?

Bad Water Bill

12-05-2012, 03:15 PM

Just ordered my Craftsman. Now to get an EXTRA cartridge or 2.

In the misc videos they state that any powders will work and you can salvage and RE USE your over spray.[smilie=s:

wwboolitmaker

12-05-2012, 04:21 PM

The Sears pc gun works great. You can look at my earlier post in this thread and those were done with it. You can reuse old powder but it is suggested that you mix in virgin powder every time you reuse a batch of powder.

popper

12-05-2012, 04:59 PM

Curious (again) is the 'fillet' cause by melted coating flowing or a buildup of powder accumulating before heating? For those of you with the PC guns, do they use a spark gap to ionize the powder, like a gas pilot lighter spark? Reading about another application method, heating to 250F or so and then dusting. Powder melts on hot surface, 'overspray' just drops to the bottom and can be reused. Tried my liquid poly coating again yesterday, air dried and then cooked @ 150F for 15 min. It add .002" to diam and sized fine but some spots scraped off as I didn't acetone clean them first. It is not as hard as the PC.

wwboolitmaker

12-05-2012, 05:33 PM

It's from buildup at the base. I dont clean my boolits before spraying, I just warm, spray and then bake. Here is a .44 mag swc coated and then hammered flat, it cracked in a few places but it never let go. This stuff is tough!!!

http://s10.postimage.org/6gnhi0tc5/MVC_010_S.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/6gnhi0tc5/)

StratsMan

12-05-2012, 09:30 PM

News flash!!!

The price on the Craftsman powder coating system at Amazon.com has been reduced!!! Now only $28.99...

=====================

D'oh!!! That price only applies if you open an Amazon Gift card... $10 off for that... sorry.... :oops:

Bad Water Bill

12-05-2012, 09:38 PM

I saw that one. He wanted $14.95 shipping. He also said only one left.

$39.99 was what I paid for mine with FREE shipping. [smilie=s:

popper

12-06-2012, 12:21 PM

OK, tried an experiment with the PC. First off, the powder was clumpy from the unopened jar. I heated 311165 CBs to ~400F and dusted with powder. Ugly I know, but served it's purpose. Back in the oven @ 450 for 10 min. Dumped in cold water. Powder stuck but didn't really melt when coated. Powder completely melted in 2nd pass. Coating did not crack or break when cooled and it was a THICK coating. Do NOT use in a convection style toaster oven. Suspect the BHN is up there with copper. Conclusion is that HT CBs will work OK. I do suspect a problem in getting accuracy. The coating is HARD. Any thickness variation would deform the lead when sized, possibly causing an unbalanced CB. Has anyone compared the accuracy for coated and uncoated for the same CB and load? I do think coating the base to the first lube groove would make a good GC.

ryokox3

12-06-2012, 01:36 PM

popper

12-06-2012, 02:56 PM

HT - heat treating to harden CBs. I used the HF PC. I heated them like normal HT (400F), dusted and back into the oven, then quench. I don't have a PC gun, applied by blowing through a straw (didn't work well, but an air brush may be better). Thick layer didn't melt on contact, but did when put back into the oven. When melted, it flows slowly (gravity) so I see where the 'fillet' comes from. Time to dust and put back into the oven was just a minute or so. CBs were inserted into holes in a block of wood, only the base to the lube groove was coated. This was a learning experiment for me, but I did find the coating is good when quenched. I also found that pre-heating makes the PC stick so the static gun might not be needed. Hope that helps.

Bad Water Bill

12-06-2012, 03:22 PM

Years ago when my son fell in love (it didn't last long)with fishing I got him bottles of powder STUFF. You heated a jig head with a lighter and dipped it into the powder. Powder stuck to the head and you heated it again. It left a nice hard finish. I love the GLOW IN THE DARK powder. Use it on the house and car keys. Real easy to find the right one in the dark.

Now I have to wait till my Craftsman shows up to see if I have found a use for all of those colored bottles that have been gathering dust for YEARS.[smilie=s:

popper

12-06-2012, 03:48 PM

BWB - sort of what I'm trying, but I don't have a hook to hold on to. $4 for a bottle of PC is doable, $60 for a gun I may not need? Have to get more results from users to make that decision. If I can get 1-2 MOA with what I have, possibly adding another 1-2 MOA isn't good. I can see that for pistol it would be good, indoor range, lead-free hunting zones, etc. I'll play with it more and wait for results from others. I sized .311, one of the better ones, as cast .313. The base flattened and it didn't chip or scrape off even at the edge between PC and non-PC.

ryokox3

12-06-2012, 04:20 PM

Bad Water Bill

12-06-2012, 04:35 PM

What I really want is to recover some from the berm.

With the P C it should be very east to tell yours from all of the other STUFF in the berm.[smilie=s:

Jailer

12-06-2012, 09:48 PM

Range report time. I loaded up 20 rounds for the 300 blk bolt gun at 2 different loads, 15.3gr of H110 and 16.0gr H110. 5 of each load were gas checked 5 were shot without gas checks. The boolit used was the Lee 312-155-2R sized to .310 on all loads. The results were surprising.

First my known accurate load of 15.3gr H110. These were gas checked. Velocity was higher than lubed cast boolits of the same load level. My cast rounds run about 1800 FPS or so. These ran around 1870 FPS average. Accuracy was a little off from what I expected but there was no leading or deposits of any kind.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/300blk153grH110checked.jpg

Next up was 16.0gr H110 gas checked sized to .310. This was another surpise as this is where my cast load falls apart accuracy wise. Velocity was higher here too normally running around 1870. These clocked in at around 1920 and shot great with no leading and again no deposits in the barrel. The one shot out of the group was the third shot. I bumped the trigger before I was settled and sent it flying. I think I'm going to have to add a bit more on the trigger spring as I did this twice today with this gun. I love the light trigger but it's a little too easy to trip.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/300blk16grH110checked.jpg

Next we have 15.3gr H110 no gas checks. This was horrible. only 3 shots on target and I have no idea where the others went. Velocity was around 1870 FPS. Good news though, no leading or deposits at all from this load.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/300blk153grH110nocheck.jpg

And last but not least 16.0gr H110 no gas check sized to .310. Again horrible accuracy with 2 shots off paper somewhere. Velocity was around 1950 average. This one though left a bit of leading in the last inch or so of the barrel just before the muzzle. At least I know where the limit is now. :veryconfu

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/300blk16grH110nocheck.jpg

Ken73

12-06-2012, 11:43 PM

So by the sounds of it, it still needs a gas check for the higher velocities; though the coating apparently held up and functioned as a lubricant/jacket. Makes me wonder if a plain base boolit would work?

Jailer

12-06-2012, 11:52 PM

I dare say if you did a plain base boolit with the base coated it would shoot great. The only reason I got leading from the ones I did is they were a near max load and the lead base was exposed.

Maybe coating some plain base boolits nose down?

ryokox3

12-07-2012, 01:39 AM

Those are some nice results, and very encouraging. Did you crimp on the gas checks before or after coating? Do you think either way would make a difference?

Ken73

12-07-2012, 01:41 AM

Why not leave the aluminum foil that gets stuck on the bottom? Wondering if it was the "fillet" at the bottom that was affecting your accuracy for the non-checked version. Did you trim it off?

ryokox3

12-07-2012, 02:40 AM

ok, getting tired before going to bed, but got one last dumb thought for the night. Take a hardwood board, or other setup (plate with welding) anything capable of taking 20 min in 400 degrees, with some finishing nails pointing up, either through that hardwood or welded to the plate. Torch the nails till they are red hot and stick the GC style boolits on them (without checks of cource). I do not see a fillet forming in this method. The torch heat allows the boolit to go onto the nail and stick there for coating. Should be able to just pull them off then. Also the powder will coat some of those nails, but not the very tops or bottoms of the nails, so you should be able to re-use the nails. I'm thinking a bonus would be getting some ofthe base coated also, so even with max loads you would not need the gc.

popper

12-07-2012, 01:14 PM

Jailer - good work. What is your alloy, ACWW with some Sn? You indicate that your full bore load group opens up PC or normal, the same but fps is ~ 50 higher for all loads. Are you going to try to quench (HT) some for the next test? You results non-GC'd or GC is about what I see, need the base covered for HV. So you've validated PC is a good rifle lube replacement, to let's say 2k fps. My triggers run about 4# - I don't like them too light.

Jailer

12-07-2012, 03:22 PM

Why not leave the aluminum foil that gets stuck on the bottom? Wondering if it was the "fillet" at the bottom that was affecting your accuracy for the non-checked version. Did you trim it off?

I didn't trim anything off the base of the ones I shot. None of them had any that needed trimming from what I could see.

Jailer - good work. What is your alloy, ACWW with some Sn? You indicate that your full bore load group opens up PC or normal, the same but fps is ~ 50 higher for all loads. Are you going to try to quench (HT) some for the next test? You results non-GC'd or GC is about what I see, need the base covered for HV. So you've validated PC is a good rifle lube replacement, to let's say 2k fps. My triggers run about 4# - I don't like them too light.

They are all air cooled wheel weights with a touch of tin. I have tried some water dropped and saw no difference in accuracy at any velocity. The powder coated boolits at 16.0gr did shoot accurately enough but my lubed bullets don't.

Ken73

12-08-2012, 12:25 AM

Just thought of something - silicone withstands 400 degrees for 20 minutes easily. In fact, the Sears PC gun comes with some silicone plugs for masking off holes.

Wonder if it would be too hard to make a silicone mold to hold boolits? A jig for certain ones for that matter. Wouldn't be conductive of course but you could spray them bottom's up, bake, then spray standing up on foil for a top coat afterwards. It'd make it a 2-step process but if you made a jig for standing them up it'd go a LOT faster. (That's usually the biggest pain.) They sell silicone mold making supplies at some craft stores.

Bad Water Bill

12-08-2012, 07:58 AM

Here is where you can get the pro grade.

RIO GRANDE LAPIDARY

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Zero-D-LSLT-160-1-4-Silicone-Mold-Rubber-5-lbs/701227?***=6

I have dealt with them for OVER 30 years and never a problem.

olaf455

12-08-2012, 01:13 PM

Bizzy lately, looking forward to more xperementin...

Sent from the cold Northwoods.

ryokox3

12-12-2012, 02:57 AM

Bad Water Bill

12-12-2012, 04:03 AM

You MUST get the boolits up to temp or the powder will not flow nor will it bake the coating. Your back rows are just to far away from the heat source and any slight breeze will also deflect heat. A small oven as mentioned is your best friend as it keeps everything at a measured temp and prevents wind cooling.

Ken73

12-12-2012, 10:07 AM

Can someone please help explain how to set up the powder coating with an Irfrared heater, in my case I have the recommended optimus H-5210. What I'm doing is I'm propping my sheet of metal covered with tin foil about 6 inches off the floor to get in the center of the heat. I put the heater on high, and close as possible to the boolits. I tried a few rows but the ones in back were not 'melting' the powder, and even the front ones were not doing well.

To make it work I had to make a tin foil cover... like a box or an oven. Should I need to do that? How close do you need to be to the object to melt the powder?

Not sure, typically the IR heaters are used for larger items that won't fit in an oven; the best way as Bill mentions is to use an actual oven that retains the heat. Your box is acting as a sort of oven, but probably isn't retaining the heat so well. The powder has to come up to ~400 degrees and stay there for at least 15-20 minutes. Easiest thing to do is buy your wife a new toaster oven and take her old one for this. (At least, that's what I did.) Otherwise you can get a new one at Walmart for ~$30 or so. You just don't want to use an oven that will be used for food later on as these powders can release fumes (and who knows if they're toxic or not.) Definitely do it with ventilation - that being said, I do mine in my office here at the house, with the door directly behind my desk open and a fan blowing the fumes out.

PAT303

12-13-2012, 04:55 AM

The only problem I see is we have 240V power in Oz were's you guys use 110.Those powder coating guns are a great idea. Pat

ryokox3

12-13-2012, 12:08 PM

Thanks for the replies guys. I went with the heater as it was reviewed well for this purpose and I have several items around the house that I want to powdercoat, which will not fit inside a toaster oven.

I use a harbor freight heat gun to get the boolits warm before coating them. My first coating attempt was ok, the second try went much better. All in a line at the front, and covered to make my foil oven. Maybe I'll get a toaster oven also to use just for boolits and small things.

farmerjim

12-13-2012, 02:35 PM

Are you using a regular or a convection toaster oven?

N1YDP

12-13-2012, 04:05 PM

what do you use for voltage for powder coating

N1YDP

12-13-2012, 04:20 PM

just did some research.the sears powder gun comes with everything but powder and oven,right?

Bad Water Bill

12-13-2012, 05:57 PM

just did some research.the sears powder gun comes with everything but powder and oven,right?

That was what was in the big box the brown truck delivered yesterday.

ryokox3

12-16-2012, 01:10 AM

Here are some firing results. This is my first batch of pc boolits, so they were not as nice as the others you all posted. First pics show them this morning. The last 3 are after firing. One picture right as they came, the other 2 had a light rinsing to remove some surface dirt. Mushroomed boolit was around 10 yards into the berm. The other 2 are at about 50 yards into a berm.

5603756038560395604056041

doubledown

12-16-2012, 05:33 PM

I have a question I can't find the answer to, for gas check bullets how do you size them? with lube then wipe off?, with no lube? or if you PC first then size will the GC still fit on the base? I'm a simple man.

Jailer

12-16-2012, 05:45 PM

Pop a gas check on and run through push through sizing die. Works perfectly.

doubledown

12-16-2012, 05:52 PM

Pop a gas check on and run through push through sizing die. Works perfectly.

Jailer, are you saying put a gas check on a non lubed, non powder coated boolit and run it through the sizer?

popper

12-16-2012, 06:10 PM

Jailer

12-16-2012, 07:21 PM

Jailer, are you saying put a gas check on a non lubed, non powder coated boolit and run it through the sizer?

Add the gas check and size after they are powder coated.

doubledown

12-16-2012, 07:58 PM

Thanks Jailer, I'm going to give this PC a try and see how it works. I have some real long bearing surface bullets I cast and I'm interested to see how well it works.

ryokox3

12-17-2012, 12:07 AM

ryokox3 - Thanks, very good. How do the grooves look? Nice & sharp? Any PC left on the CB bore? To me it looks like only the grooves have any left but I can't get the pic resolution up enough to tell.

Unfortunately I lost the coating on both the lands and grooves. A little remained but not much. I'm not sure if I cured them enough though. They look like they are cured, but this was the first batch I did pc on, so my technique may not have been there yet. I'm going to look for a used toaster oven at good will to see if I can get better results from a constant measured 400 degree temp as opposed to my ir heater..

cylinderman

12-17-2012, 05:45 AM

This thread really inspired me to try something. My wife has something called embossing ink actually its like an adhesive that is transfered to card stock then powder paint is sprinkled on and then heated to leave a raised design. Well I decided to roll some bullets on the pad then picked them up with tweezers by the lube grove and dip them in the powder coat. Then I set them nose down in a metal lid I drilled holes in then baked at 350 for 20 min. White bullets were the result. They started out unsized about .311 after I sized to .309 with ease. I'm going to load them in 30 herrett cases and see what happens

xyankeeworkshop

12-17-2012, 12:05 PM

Finally had a chance to try out my shiny new Craftsman PC kit on some Lee 125gr TL 9mm's yesterday. Sent four batches of 110 ea through the process upside down on the hardware cloth jig I discussed earlier. I'm still trying to get the process tweaked, but overall had great success getting the base and grooves covered fully. I had a little in the way of uneven covering on some of the noses, but I think that may be a result of some experimenting with the preheating temperature and a couple handling goofs where I needed to use a tweezers to upright some boolits that had fallen over in the trip between the toaster oven and the cardboard box spray booth. Otherwise, I just had 3 or 4 tiny little pinhole marks around the nose of each boolit where the "prongs" of the jig wade contact.

The ceremonial garage floor hammering of the first PCPb boolit was impressive with almost no breaks in the coverage at all. This stuff is tough!

I sized them to .357 with no apparent scuffing of the gloss red coating and then loaded a test batch of 100 over 4.3 grains of HP38 that I'll run through the Glock 17 tomorrow. Pics to follow.

bryonbush

12-18-2012, 12:00 AM

bryonbush

12-18-2012, 12:06 AM

gandydancer

12-18-2012, 01:19 AM

Just going to have to give this a try. GD

Bad Water Bill

12-18-2012, 01:57 AM

ryokox3

12-18-2012, 02:48 AM

im very interested in this... could someone point me to the direction of where to buy this stuff. i remember a while back there was a very looooong thread about this when it first came out. a sticky tutorial would be great...hint hint

There is a thread that combines powder coating with other methods. I personally like a separate thread just for powder coating, as that keeps all info for this method in one spot.Byron, you are listed as being in TX, so I would think you could get all you need with an amazon order for the craftsman pc gun, or the Harbor freight one. Also powder from... well many places. Harbor freight sells a few for a nice price. Ebay also has some powder, and if you look on amazon at the craftsman pc gun (user reviews), you will see many places to buy powder.

xyankeeworkshop

12-19-2012, 09:27 AM

Well, I did my first run with PCPb Lee 125 grainers at IDPA last night and the results were not the best. Not a lost cause, but disappointing and in need of some tinkering.

From my Glock 17, I had some pretty severe keyholing at 5 yards and and almost embarassing inaccuracy at 15. The smell was pretty gnarly too, but that's not a deal-killer. Possible causes to investigate:

*Whether the Lee 125 grain TL boolit is a good design for a Glock bore to begin with.
*Is sizing a TL boolit to .357 after coating a good or bad thing?
*Could uneven powder coating on the ogives be causing the tumbling?
*If it is, could PCing just the base and grooves be a solution?
*Should I change my powder charge from one worked up for lead towards one for jacketed?

On the plus side, they fed reliably, were much less smoky on an indoor range, and the bore appeared to stay real clean (still need to pull the barrel again and check it under better light).

BTW, remind me not to do my 'sperimenting at an IDPA match anymore. That was dumb.

ryokox3

12-19-2012, 10:55 AM

bstone5

12-19-2012, 11:30 AM

In a 9 mm glock the 135 grain powder coated bullet has shot well for me.

The bullets were sized to .356 after powder coating.

The 110 grain 9 mm bullet powder coated has shot well in a 380 Auto also.

Size the bullets after powder coating, the bullets will slid very easily thru a Lee push thru sizer.

I have never had a key hole with the bullets sised to .356, the load is in the middle in terms of velocity for the respective loaded rounds.

If the bullet diameter is near the max sometimes the bullet will tumble for some reason.

I use the Lee 2 cavity molds for both of 9 mm and the 380 Auto.

Earlier in this thread there is a picture of the 380 bullets I use, these bullets were powder coated red and also a cola can gas check was installed these bullets shot very well in a BERSA Thunder.

xyankeeworkshop

12-19-2012, 12:02 PM

Looks like I'll be ordering a .356 die. and perhaps another style of Lee 6-banger if the 9mm TL boolit doesn't want to play nice. I suspect you're right about sizing closer to jacketed. I ran some "as-cast" (read "fat") lead TL boolits with 45-45-10 through and it leaded up fast.

willie_pete

12-19-2012, 12:31 PM

I have had very good luck with PC bullets. Sunday I shot an IDPA match with a revolver and 158 gr. lead PC bullets. I was only down 15 points ( very good for me ) and the gun looked absolutely factory new in the barrel.

WP

GARD72977

12-19-2012, 01:16 PM

I have no experience with PC bullets. Just wondering if there is any improvment is they are lubed in a Lyman sizer? I will have to run them through the sizer anyway.

Michael J. Spangler

12-19-2012, 07:52 PM

why not use something like this?

http://www.bayoubullets.net/Coating.html

same stuff that bayou bullets uses. i spoke with donnie at bayou and he said a liter should be able to coat approximately 26000 9mm (knowing that there are variations in weights and therefore coverage)

ryokox3

12-19-2012, 11:37 PM

Did you mean 26K per liter or 2600? If the former it looks like a great deal... well even the latter is. Still pc offers a few additional things. Nice colors, and a more hands on project. I mean if pink boolits help get my fiance to the range [smilie=w: even better. Also I now have the equipment to fix some stuff up around the house much better than using a rattle can. :)

As for the bayou product, I did not see on their website how to coat using their product. Is it dip and let dry, or tumble lube method? Even without that answer I do believe will be an easier and probably better solution. For a cost per boolit and also time per boolit, Bayou likely may win out. Over time though I wonder what we may learn from pc to make it great also.

In the end I'm going to keep with the PC experiments. It is easy to stick with tried solutions, but playing here (being careful of cource) may lead to the next latest and greatest boolit. It may fail miserably, but I'll learn something in the process.

Michael J. Spangler

12-20-2012, 09:01 AM

he has instructions available.
basically you thin with acetone, tumble and then bake. i double checked and he said 26000 9mm. very fast and very cheap compared to PC

Ken73

12-20-2012, 09:19 PM

Considering PC has a wider range of applications (and colors) - I'll stick to PC (which is what this thread is about.) I already had the equipment and some powder, so it was worthwhile to give it a shot. Others here already had the equipment as well. If someone wanted just to get into coating boolits then I can see it as viable, but some of us already have PC equipment. The initial outlay is a little more than the other at first, but once you get a setup, it becomes apparent that it has other uses than just boolits alone. Although I am curious what the shelf life of the other stuff is?

(Not to mention, women dig pink boolits.) :smile:

Bad Water Bill

12-20-2012, 09:38 PM

Lets not forger red BOOLITS are easier to see and recover.

Jailer

12-20-2012, 10:31 PM

I do plan on doing some more testing soon with these in 300 blk and 308. Late doe season runs through the end of the month so it will be a couple weeks before I get to it.

Bad Water Bill

12-20-2012, 10:57 PM

If a PC boolit is used for hunting some small particles might get mixed in the meat.

My question is will the PC particles be more toxic than a bare PB?

We can not afford to lose even one member here.

ryokox3

12-21-2012, 01:41 AM

If a PC boolit is used for hunting some small particles might get mixed in the meat.

My question is will the PC particles be more toxic than a bare PB?

I'm sorry, I'm a little lost on your comment. If I were to injest an element, I would take most anything over lead. Or are you saying that a pc boolit will impart more bad stuff into the meat than a pure lead one would? Fortunately for all of us, it seems the pc sticks well enough to the lead to stay on it, and not separate into the meat.

Bad Water Bill

12-21-2012, 03:36 AM

bpratl

12-21-2012, 06:19 AM

Please show photos of your PC setup to reclaim or prevent the spreading of the powder and how are you venting while coating?
Where are you generally powder coating? Bob

N1YDP

12-21-2012, 01:00 PM

anyone try pc bullets in a stock glock barrel? i have a 10mm

willie_pete

12-21-2012, 07:34 PM

anyone try pc bullets in a stock glock barrel? i have a 10mm

See my post #54.

WP

doubledown

12-29-2012, 08:44 AM

After reading this entire thread from start to finish, I decided to give pc a try. I load for a few long bearing surface bullets. The worst of Ithem is the .513 700 grain WFN. The boolit Is the same size as a loaded .44 magnum cartridge. It always left some leading behind
I already had a beat up toaster oven, so I bought the $39 Sears gun and some red powder. It was pretty easy to get good looking bullets. I sized them and loaded them over 106 grains of 4350. It's a mild load, but still motivated the bullet to 1950fps. Standing, shooting of the sticks I managed a 2 1/2" group at 50 yards three in one ragged egg shaped hole, the the two were about an inch out.

I was very happy with the accuracy, but after inspecting the bore, I had zero leading after 15 shots. Unfortunately as you might imagine, I could not recover a single bullet. I am saving up newspaper to try and recover a bullet to see how the powder coat looks

Thanks to all the trailblazers out there who got this thing going. It really does work. Thanks again.

ncbearman

12-29-2012, 01:49 PM

I have heard of very few boolits recovered that weighed EXACTLY what they did when loaded. There must have been some small particles somewhere in the meat. Are those PCd particles any more toxic than P B?

This question submitted by an OLD man that has swallowed lots of pellets and sinkers in my 70+ years.

Well there ya go Bill............you have discovered the fountain of youth. A lifetime of eating pb by the way of eating what you kill. I always figured that casting, loading, shooting would keep me alive longer :o

Ken73

12-30-2012, 06:44 PM

I have heard of very few boolits recovered that weighed EXACTLY what they did when loaded. There must have been some small particles somewhere in the meat. Are those PCd particles any more toxic than P B?

It's my understanding that there's something in the PC in it's powder state that's not good to breath and can cause cancer (just wear a dust mask when working with it) but once cured, it's inert and no longer toxic.

prickett

12-30-2012, 06:46 PM

Does lead hardness even matter if PCing? Could pure lead be shot in a 9mm that was PCed?

Ken73

12-30-2012, 09:37 PM

Does lead hardness even matter if PCing? Could pure lead be shot in a 9mm that was PCed?

I've been wondering that myself; if the PC creates a barrier that doesn't leave behind residue, does the hardness matter anymore?

leadman

12-31-2012, 02:21 AM

I would think with long rifle boolits nose slump might be a problem with softer boolits. The paper patch guys say they can shoot soft lead at high velocity, but it may depend more on the boolit design. With short handgun boolits it may not matter much.
Has anyone coated boolits that were oversized by .002" or more then sized them down after coating? Say sizing a .359" coated boolit to .356" or .357".
I'm very interested in trying this and may go and get the HF kit tomorrow.

Do you think a boolit, especially the longer rifle boolits, could me suspended by a thin wire in a lube groove without damaging the coating when removing it?

xyankeeworkshop

12-31-2012, 02:10 PM

leadman,

I powdercoated a couple hundred Lee TL 125 grain 9mm boolits that mic out pretty fat and then sized them down to .357. They squeezed down fine, but that .002 above my .355 Glock bore ended up, I'm guessing, causing some impressive keyholing. My plan is to switch to the Lee 120 grain truncated cone boolit mold and sizing them post-coating to .356. I do wonder, however, if they actually would do better if it were possible to size them at .355 just like a jacketed bullet. any thoughts from the peanut gallery?

leadman

12-31-2012, 04:04 PM

Have you slugged your bore? I had a Ruger that was .3575" so I sized to .358" and it worked well. Might try sizing below the size of your bore or the same so after pc it is the correct size.
Could the PC that flares at the bottom be sizing down the base of the boolit when sized?
As far as ingesting lead this is the least likely method to cause an elevated blood lead level according to what the experts have written. I was a certified hazardous waste worker and studied the methods of elevated lead levels. Breathing vapor, open cuts, fingers to eyes, nostrils, mouth are the more easily way to acquire lead in your blood. There are many people still alive carrying bullets in their body.

prickett

01-01-2013, 01:07 AM

leadman,
They squeezed down fine, but that .002 above my .355 Glock bore ended up, I'm guessing, causing some impressive keyholing.

That doesn't sound right. Keyholing is a symptom of undersided boolits. I don't believe its a symptom of oversided boolits, is it?

I size my 9mms to .358 for all my 9mm pistols without problem.

xyankeeworkshop

01-01-2013, 09:41 AM

Prickett,
I thought so as well, but they certainly aren't undersized for that bore. It may actually be that the Lee tumble lube 125 grain design and a Glock 17 simply do not get along very well. I've googled up several complaints about that. It may also be the fact that I ran TL boolits them through a sizer die and the combination of the PC and the sizing squashed the lube grooves unevenly. Either way, I'm ready to try a different boolit design.

rcav8r

01-01-2013, 12:44 PM

I've been a hobbyist powdercoater for a few years. If you want to hold bullets nosedown so you can PC the full diameter part, simply find a drill bit that is about the same size of the bullet diameter where the nose starts to curve from the base. Get a piece of aluminum or sheet metal, and drill holes, lots of holes. Duburr the holes. Make some legs for the plate, possibly even a baseplate to attach to the legs-you could even drill this baseplate with another diameter hole for another bullet-and fill the holes with your base-up bullets for PC'ing.

But wait, there's more! Put a sheet of aluminum foil over the plate first, and simply poke your holes through. This will protect your plate from a buildup of PC that would prevent conductivity for future PC jobs. Be sure the foil overlaps the bottom plate if you go that way. You can simply discard the foil when it gets too built up.

There are powdercoat removers out there, and they are waterbased, but very $$$, about $200 for a 5 gallon bucket. You can get smaller quantities also, but still $$$.

S. Galbraith

01-01-2013, 04:45 PM

The powder coating in place of a copper jacket is a pretty interesting idea. Does the Harbor Freight powder have any sort of errosive properies? Just curious if it would wear out barrels faster.

ryokox3

01-02-2013, 02:18 AM

I do not think it woud be errosive. It does not feel hard enough, and I do not think anything that melts at < 400 degrees will be more abrasive than a jacketed bullet.

Bad Water Bill

01-02-2013, 05:27 AM

IIRC on U tube they said it was a HI TEMP plastic so should never be hard enough to damage a STEEL bbl.

popper

01-02-2013, 12:14 PM

This may interest some of you. http://www.flickr.com/photos/zapwizard/sets/72157594167019934/ home made PC gun.

on1wheel01

01-02-2013, 08:22 PM

I may have to say f it and try this. Even if I don't shoot them wold still look neat lol. I have so cool colors in stock so why not. If i do it I will post pics up for u guys

Bad Water Bill

01-02-2013, 09:09 PM

Speaking of KOOL colors. How about glow in the dark?

Years ago I bought MANY colors of powder to coat fishing lures for my son. Most have never been touched. I found out he likes to say I have bit never enjoys using anything. Just possession made him happy. Now dad will have fun. :bigsmyl2:

S. Galbraith

01-03-2013, 10:08 AM

Speaking of KOOL colors. How about glow in the dark?

Poor man's tracers? :)

Bad Water Bill

01-03-2013, 10:19 AM

Poor man's tracers? :)

Years ago I coated the house and car door keys with glow paint. Sure helps an old man find the correct keys.:bigsmyl2:

bpratl

01-08-2013, 05:24 PM

Has anyone tried powder coating solid bullets without the lube grooves, by having the mold re-machined to remove the grooves or are the grooves needed when powder coated?

wwboolitmaker

01-10-2013, 08:59 PM

Well guys I reloaded my first few boolits and suprise suprise they were powder coated. They are 240 grain swc's over 10 grains of unique. Dont know accuracy or speed yet but they sure do look pretty!

http://i.imgur.com/5GS4E.jpg

bryonbush

01-11-2013, 04:38 PM

they look good! keep us posted on how they shoot. ive got everything to start making PC bullets, just waiting to finish my new reloading room.

wwboolitmaker

01-12-2013, 04:22 PM

Bullets shot great! Haven't got to do a bench rest group but loose rest groups were good. I cleaned the bore before I did any shooting so i could close monitor leading. When i got done shooting 15 or so rounds the bore is actually cleaner than it was before i started. No leading or fouling at all. These are ww lead with 10 grains of unique behind a 240 grain swc sized to .429.

http://i.imgur.com/BpBKr.jpg

Bad Water Bill

01-12-2013, 04:32 PM

Which color worked best?:kidding:

jabilli

01-12-2013, 08:59 PM

The first guy to figure out how to balance a lead round nose on the pointy end of a nail long enough to coat and bake it wins 16 Trillion internet points. Make me proud!

*Very late response but maybe still useful to someone*

Clay. Get a little marble sized piece of clay , plop it on the tray, stick bullet point in. This will hold your bullet in place, and ceramic does just fine in an oven. You folks looking for a way to make it so the tip is not covered, for hunting, might also find this an attractive idea. For the whole bullet just flip it over and coat the tip.

jabilli

01-12-2013, 09:02 PM

Internet points....How do those convert? 1 Trillion= about 1/10th of a cent right? :-p

Digger

01-12-2013, 09:07 PM

"pointy end of a nail" .... so would would hp's have the edge on this process ?

wwboolitmaker

01-12-2013, 09:07 PM

*Very late response but maybe still useful to someone*

Clay. Get a little marble sized piece of clay , plop it on the tray, stick bullet point in. This will hold your bullet in place, and ceramic does just fine in an oven. You folks looking for a way to make it so the tip is not covered, for hunting, might also find this an attractive idea.

We can give you an "E" for effort. It needs to conduct electricity for it to work. I'm working on powder coating some hollow points now.

Bad Water Bill

01-13-2013, 04:00 AM

Just a thought.

Take some bread dough roll it flat and cover it with foil. put boolits to preferred depth in the foil connect lead and spray.

Now place in oven and cook till done.

Remove from oven pick up your colored boolits. save the charcoal (bread burned to a T) FOR FLUXING

a REAL RE CYCLE project.:smile:

machanic

01-13-2013, 10:29 AM

Any try this method yet, 1/16 welding wire, plan to PC in a masking shroud to keep over spray off wire

wwboolitmaker

01-13-2013, 10:50 PM

Here is the base of a hollow point coated.

http://i.imgur.com/4Do8E.jpg

Here is the nose

http://i.imgur.com/rAkH6.jpg

xyankeeworkshop

01-14-2013, 02:34 PM

Finally got a chance to do some more experimenting with PCPb boolits thru the Glock 17 yesterday. Upthread I had reported that my 125 grain Lee tumble lubers were keyholing badly sized to .357 and charged with 4.4 grains of HP38.

I loaded up a couple batches of powdercoated but unsized 125gr TL 9mm's with 3.8 and 4.0 grains and had good success with both. No keyholes, low smoke, and a nice clean bore. Accuracy seemed ok but, as I'm still trying to make friends with the Glock, I need to work with that a bit more. I'll need to get a chrony set up to check speed at some point as well.

xyankeeworkshop

01-14-2013, 02:52 PM

Mechanic,

My method for holding a tray of boolits for 100% coating is kind of like your picture - basically welded wire mesh snipped and bent to create prongs that grab the boolit nose and hold them base up. The problem has become, over several batches, the wire getting coated to the point it no longer conducts electricity to the boolits. As much of a pain as it was to fabricate the jig, I'm not sure I want to have to keep making them all the time just to get 100% powder coverage. Besides, transporting 100 boolits back and forth to the oven without one or seven falling over is a real challenge.

I think the next try may just be a 1/4" slab of MDF drilled to accept the boolit noses and only leave the grooves exposed for coating. A sheet of aluminum foil below the MDF will contact the tip of the noses for conductivity. Hopefully after the hot MDF takes a coat or two of powder it'll stop taking much more and I can gently blow off a lot of the overspray on the MDF before baking. After that I may just sand the top of the jig to keep the buildup to a minimum.

machanic

01-14-2013, 09:19 PM

Single strand of a fine copper wire soldered to the base of the boolit wire dia. .005 in. A little time consuming, next casting session going to try a wire in the mold out the nose of the boolit, will have to scribe a fine line in the mold to keep it from ovaling the cavity. As wwboolitmaker has shown hollow points are by design less problematic, I think my 45acp is going on a hollow point diet!!! Maybe the subsonics on the 300 Blackout also.

machanic

01-14-2013, 10:05 PM

exyankeeworkshop, have you tried a release agent on the wire to keep the PC from adhering, was wondering if it would help or if it would migrate under the powder during heating and cause adhesion problems on the boolit.

Bad Water Bill

01-14-2013, 10:20 PM

A quick question for those that have shot PCs at targets?

Do those that are painted to the tip of the boolit shoot any more accurately than those only painted past the part actually making contact with the bbl?

retread

01-14-2013, 10:25 PM

Just recieved my new PC gun today with 6 lb. of powder. Tried to talk my wife out of her old toaster oven (she has a new one in the box that has been out in the garage for about 2 years) but the aswer was "no, I am going to use the old one as long as it lasts". So what does a boolit head do in a case like that...go out and buy a new one for the reloading shop! I have read where some of you are preping the bullets with acetone. If I am not sizing before coating and using freshly cast clean bullets, is it really necessary?

wwboolitmaker

01-14-2013, 10:26 PM

Nope....just cast and powder coat

retread

01-14-2013, 10:33 PM

Thanks for the comeback. That was my feeling. How can you get much cleaner that fresh cast.

willie_pete

01-15-2013, 10:24 AM

I generally don't see any difference in accuracy in .38's and 9mm. I've painted them both ways; bottoms up so the base is coated and the tips are clean and bottom down where the bottoms are clean and the top is coated.

WP

xyankeeworkshop

01-15-2013, 05:52 PM

I don't think cleaning freshly-cast boolits with acetone, etc. is necessary - especially if they're water-dropped. However, I do think it'd be a good idea to wear latex or nitrile gloves while handling them or setting them up for spraying lest your oily fingerprints potentially cause some powder adhesion problems.

bstone5

01-15-2013, 06:21 PM

I powder coat the bullets some times up side down sometimes pointed end up.

There has been no difference in accuracy or leading of the barrel.

I generally clean the bullets if they have been around a while, if they are fresh from the mold, I just powder coat, I wear the cheap nitrile gloves from Harbor Freight just to keep my hands clean from handling the bullets and all of the plates and aluminum foil to cover the plates.

I have powder coated several thousand bullets, it has become the standard practice for all cast lead bullets used in hand guns.

The powder coating removes all of the lead, if I push the bullets in the jacketed velocity range I install a cola can gas check on plain base bullets - bevel base or flat base.

Powder coating works well and the time is about the same as runninng the bullets thru a lube unit.

It takes about 20 minutes to powder coat 150 bullets in the small counter top convection oven used to cure the powder coat.

bmiller

01-15-2013, 08:54 PM

How fast have you pushed your cola can checked bullets?

bpratl

01-16-2013, 11:33 AM

Is powder coating eliminating bullet lube or are the bullets still lubed during sizing?

wwboolitmaker

01-16-2013, 11:51 AM

I just powder coat, size, then shoot.

willie_pete

01-16-2013, 11:53 AM

I just powder coat, size, then shoot.

Same way here.

WP

RayinNH

01-16-2013, 06:56 PM

I've found this discussion quite interesting. I'm going to see if the board of directors will approve of these on the indoor range at the club. They have a policy of jacketed or plated bullets unless using an airgun or .22 caliber.

My powder coater was at the shop a couple days ago and I asked if he would plate a half dozen boolits for me to show the board. The board of course will have questions. A couple questions I have for you that have used these PC boolits, are they any smokier to shoot than a jacketed bullet? Does the rifling eat through the coating to the lead or does it just create rifling marks in the coating...Ray

wwboolitmaker

01-16-2013, 07:04 PM

I dont know about jacketed but these dont smoke much at all. This pic is borrowed from another forum.

http://s14.postimage.org/jq4cusi9p/Fired_Group.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/jq4cusi9p/)

SharuLady

01-16-2013, 09:47 PM

With PC HP's will they still expand since the PC is so tough to crack? Am assuming the inside of the HP is not PC'ed

TYIA,
Ruth

xyankeeworkshop

01-17-2013, 09:44 AM

I've found my PC boolits to be far less smoky than traditionally lubed boolits, but still a little smokier than jacketed. The PC does smell somewhat...interesting. Not too bad though.

As far as exposed lead after firing, I think wwboolitmaker's photo says it all. They tend to stay as encapsulated as an FMJ does. Heck, the one's I've tested with a 4lb sledge on the garage floor stayed pretty well encapsulated until they looked more like pancakes than boolits.

Rich22

01-17-2013, 05:06 PM

This thread has come at an excellent time for me. I recently started a thread on here in which I was searching for a lube that was. Easy to apply, fast to apply, would work for both 9mm and 300 Blackout, would be hard and non sticky so can use in a bullet feeder. From what I am reading on here this does all of those things and really well. I have a compressor, extra toaster oven (monster one at that), this is REALLY making me want to fire up a gun. What would be the best place to get the gun and supplies from? I have a fairly local Harbor Freight. To whoever started this thread, thank you very much and the same to all those that have contributed. You guys just may have solved my last big problem as far as getting started casting.

Ken73

01-18-2013, 12:27 AM

What would be the best place to get the gun and supplies from? I have a fairly local Harbor Freight.

The HF gun is just fine; I have one as well but I don't use it for PC'ing my boolits as I do that in my "office" with the door open and fan going to blow the dust out. Get a box of cheap dust masks while you're there, this stuff isn't good to breathe in but is merely "dust" as opposed to a toxic vapor or gas. I use the little portable/compact Sears gun because its.. well.. portable and compact and there's no compressor necessary. For these small jobs it's perfect. It's also considerably cheaper (about 1/2 the price) of the Harbor Freight unit. You can get additional powder cups (I bought 4 just for the heck of it) from Summit Racing (http://www.summitracing.com) but if you do, you'll want to make foam plugs so no moisture gets in and gums up the powder. (Pretty easy to do.) I'd also keep around some of the "do not eat" silica gel moisture absorber packets to toss in there as well.

Powder can be bought at HF also, but they only have four colors; black, white, red and yellow. Columbia Coatings (http://www.columbiacoatings.com), Powder by the Pound (http://www.powderbuythepound.com), Eastwood (http://www.eastwood.com), and Caswell Plating (www.caswellplating.com) all have powders at reasonable prices online. Some are "top coats" and some are base coats, just like regular paint. Either will work just fine but I tend to use either single-stage or top coats on mine (YMMV.) As a note, I ordered from Columbia and some of the powders were drop shipped from elsewhere, and just came in a bag, not a nice jar like the others. I went to Hobby Lobby and they had some mayonnaise sized jars (new, clean, plastic) for $2 or so and were on sale so I snagged a few of those to put the bagged powders in those.

Caswell has some plating goodies too, so you could even nickel plate your 300 BLK cases (think black boolits with nickel cases!)

Ken73

01-18-2013, 12:36 AM

Is powder coating eliminating bullet lube or are the bullets still lubed during sizing?

As far as I know, everyone in this thread is just using the powder coating, no lube. The powder coating is (to me, at least) the modern equivalent of a paper jacket.

retread

01-18-2013, 02:20 AM

58730Got my setup going today. Worked fine but I need to work on a way to catch the overspray. Hate the waste.

xyankeeworkshop

01-18-2013, 09:29 AM

Retread,

Those look just like the miniature lipsticks I'm doing. Are you spraying the boolit base too?

Like you, I hate wasting all that useable powder. I hate getting it all over the garage even more.

I have not done it yet, but my thoughts on catching overspray are to build a +/- 18" square box with scrap 3/4" melamine board and cut a hole in the back for a filter and fan to draw the powder through the box. A lazy susan to turn the tray of boolits is on the list too. I've been wondering also if an "overspray catch tray" at the back of the box made out of some aluminum channel could be grounded to the gun to attract and hold a fair amount of the material.

popper

01-18-2013, 11:34 AM

One nice thing about the wire grid fixture, it can be placed in a box, sprayed, and removed. Then the 'waste' is in the box to be recovered.

Rich22

01-18-2013, 02:25 PM

I use the little portable/compact Sears gun because its.. well.. portable and compact and there's no compressor necessary. For these small jobs it's perfect. It's also considerably cheaper (about 1/2 the price) of the Harbor Freight unit. You can get additional powder cups (I bought 4 just for the heck of it) from Summit Racing (http://www.summitracing.com) but if you do, you'll want to make foam plugs so no moisture gets in and gums up the powder. (Pretty easy to do.) I'd also keep around some of the "do not eat" silica gel moisture absorber packets to toss in there as well.

Is this the correct one ? http://www.amazon.com/Craftsman-Complete-Portable-Powder-Coating/dp/B004YEAYCW. If so, I am gonna have to try this, has anyone had any negative experiences with this where it just did not work? I have thought of my work flow, cast,PC, size, load and it really would make for an efficient process for me I do believe.

Bad Water Bill

01-18-2013, 02:42 PM

I picked up the same one a couple weeks ago on the advice of several others. I have not found a cooker yet and even if I do cooking will be done OUTSIDE. The temp is supposed to be around10 for the next several days so this OLD man iis not going to try till it warms up a lot.

I will sit back and learn more from you younger folks.[smilie=1:

xyankeeworkshop

01-18-2013, 03:07 PM

Rich22

01-18-2013, 04:35 PM

The Craftsman gun works fine for what it is and how much it *doesn't* cost.

The complaint about the thumb lock for the hopper release is true. Mine snapped itself off pretty much by itself. I superglued it back on and it and it's fine.

Small chunks of plastic have cracked and fallen off the grip. Purely cosmetic at this point.

The directions call for you to gently shake the gun as you're spraying to agitate the powder in the hopper. The problem with that is the lousy seal between the hopper and gun allowing powder to leak. There's a fix for that upthread somewhere to make a foam gasket for the problem.

It's certainly not a professional tool, but then again it only costs $40. If you're the type of guy who has a problem with the drawbacks of cheap tools AND you have a compressor, spend the money elsewhere and buy once/cry once.

Understandable, what would a good other choice be, assuming there is one, in roughly the same price range? I do have a big compressor and would be working right next to it so it would not be inconvenient whatsoever. If there is no good cheap alternative I may give this sucker a try since in all reality, other than bullets, I really cannot think of any other use for it and I do not want to spend serious $ until I make sure I like doing this and it works for me.

Thank you

Bad Water Bill

01-18-2013, 04:41 PM

Buy the Craftsman. If you decide to go bigger or get out entirely list it in the FOR SALE section.

Rich22

01-18-2013, 04:44 PM

Buy the Craftsman. If you decide to go bigger or get out entirely list it in the FOR SALE section.

I like that plan, now to buy that, do some more research, get some powder and make up some bullets to test this on, you do not know how pleased I am to come across this thread, if it works it will solve numerous problems for me.

xyankeeworkshop

01-18-2013, 05:55 PM

The Harbor Freight gun is compressor-driven and costs $20-30 more, depending on their price that day or which coupon you clipped. I honestly don't know if the quality is better or not, but the $5 jugs of powder HF sells do screw directly onto the top of the gun to eliminate the material transfer and manual agitating you need to do with the Craftsman.

retread

01-18-2013, 06:15 PM

retread

01-18-2013, 07:36 PM

xyankeeworkshop,
Sounds like you are going through the same mental gymnastics I am concerning the powder recovery and the mess. If I find any workable solutions I will post. Until then I'll keep abreast of what others have tried and posted. No, I didn't coat the bottoms. Need some area for conductivity. Thought about drilling some holes and going nose down but then the "flange" where I would meet the foil would still be a problem. Appreciate all the input from everyone. Thanks.
Retread