44 mag, bullets into throat ? Help

[gray wolf]

Pictures added to last post


If your boolets have a driving band that extends into the leade area of the cylinder's chamber mouths, you'll have to size accordingly (.429"), but if your boolets do not project into the leade, I'd get the .430".
-- Would someone explain how this happens ?
Or is my ruger hunter made incorrectly ?? I ask this cause My .432 sized
#429421bullets that match my throats chamber very easily. Now you may say that's fine, but I would have to extend them a tad over .100 past the crimp groove in order for them to not chamber, or even start to hang up in the beginning of the cylinder throat ( throat lead ). So the first driving band is jumping about .200 before it gets close to the cylinder throat lead.
some of us are getting that nasty lead ring in the beginning of the cylinder throat and I thought it may be from this condition.
Another way of saying it would be, I can't imagine what kind of 250 grain bullet would get hung up in the throat or not chamber for me.
I would have to seat the bullet crazy long for this to happen.

Thank you for the help.

Sam

[Larry Gibson]

A lot depends on the cylinder throats and whether or not they are actually tapered in diametr. Your Ruger throats are very similar to my 50th Anniversary's. I don't have any problems chambering bullets with .432 dirivng bands even though the diamter at about .1 into the throats taper down to .430 - .431. However, My Colt Anaconda's throats are .429 the entire length. If I size my 429640HPs .430 they don't readily chamber in the Anaconda but chamber easily in the Ruger. Sized .429 they chamber easily in both and shoot just as well in the Ruger as when sized .430 or even .432. There are some who can probably determine any accuracy difference but I no longer can, especially with iron sights or dot sights that I use. Thus I size the 200 - 250 gr RF and SWCs at .430 and the 429640HP's at .429 and just go shooting with perfect satisfaction.

Larry Gibson

[gray wolf]

I understand what you said, My question is--the front driving band for me is .200
in front of the taper at the beginning of the cylinder throat. I could chamber a much, much larger bullet--granted it would be to big for the cylinder throat but would easily chamber in the pistol cause it's so far away from the beginning of the taper at the cylinder throat. That's why I don't comprehend when people say as long as it will chamber.
My loaded rounds measure .450 .451 at the case neck and they are no way tite in the chamber. So I could probly chamber a .437 bullet, way to big for the throat, but it would be so far away from the beginning of the throat that the pistol would never no .
Are the throat tapers posed to be closer to the case neck ?

[cbrick]

Different revolvers have different lengths of the throat. Different bullets also have different lengths of front driving band. It's entirely possible to crimp in the groove and have the front band seated fully in the throats. This is in fact what I strive for in my long range match ammo along with the bands sized to a mild snug fit in the throats. This aligns the the bullet as closely to the center axis of the bore as the dimensions of the particular revolver will allow. In fact I have taken that to the extent of using DW 360 brass trimmed down to a few thousands of the beginning of the throat in my FA 357.

Rick

[Larry Gibson]

The front driving band on many older designs is smaller in diameter than the other driving bands was to facilitate the entry and the centering of the bullet into the forcing cone w/o shaving the bullet. The older classic Kieth designs evidence this. Probably why some of the WFN designs are reputed to be more accurate than the older designs as they have full diameter at the front of the bearing surface which gives better alignment in the cylinder throat. The 429640HP also does and is extremely accurate.

In my old PPC days I seated the WCs so they entered into the throats and were centered. I found 50 yard targets had fewer flyers that way. I still do the same with WCs in .38s and I also do the same with Lee's TL designs (.32, .38, .41 and .44) which allow crimping in the 2nd or 3rd groove from the front giving a full diameter part to enter into the thraot and keep the bullet centered.

Larry Gibson

[gray wolf]

Thank you Rick,
[/COLOR][/B] Thank you Larry
That was a good summation of whats going on and a better understanding for us with thick heads. I guess a fella could have a mold made for his pistol that let the
full size (fattest part )of the bullet Kiss the taper in the cylinder throats, or snug right against it.

[cbrick]

I guess a fella could have a mold made for his pistol that let the full size (fattest part )of the bullet Kiss the taper in the cylinder throats, or snug right against it.

Kiss the taper? Snug right against it?

I load so that the entire front driving band, everything forward of the crimp in the brass forward is fully inside the throat, no kissing about it. That's why I use the DW 360 brass in the 357, it's longer and I trim it so that an un-crimped case fits my chambers within a few thousands of the throat. Any part of the bullet not inside the case is inside the throat.

I also only size the brass as far down as the bullet depth inside the case. This helps the brass fill the chambers and holds the round in better alignment.

Rick

[MakeMineA10mm]

Gray wolf, that quote looks strangely familiar... :mrgreen:

A picture is worth a thousand words:
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/MakeMinea10mm/44_S&W_SPL_Colt~MakeMineA10mm_%234.gif

[MakeMineA10mm]

When I was working on this design, one of the ideas I was talked out of was putting a slight taper on the front drive band. My idea was that taper would aid in feeding in lever-action rifles, but I'm glad I was talked out of that, as undersized or tapered front drive bands are known to reduce accuracy.

[gray wolf]

That's What I would think it should like.
If you look close at the picture, note the spot that the brass case ends at.
That's the spot my front band ends at, and that is about .200 away from the spot the taper begins at, no way I can load a bullet to resemble the picture.
HOWEVER,
my friend Jim a member here, sent me some RNFP from a group buy NOE mold
and it has 3 crimp rings, if I crimp in the last groove my bullet is very close to the picture. But that puts a lot less bullet in the case and that decreases the pressure
in the case and would need a new load work up. ( not that big of a deal )
Am I correct so far in my thinking ?
Or the bullet needs to be a RNFP that allows for the thickest part of the bullet to extend further out of the case, or the case needs to be longer and that would move everything forward and accomplish the same thing. But I think all these little changes would also change the load characteristics of the round.
Please fill in the blanks,
I am also not familiar with the brass you speak of DW 360 brass, is this a caliber or a brand of cases that allows for custom trimming to get the length you want.

[cbrick]

It's a caliber with brass made by Starline.

Dan Wesson 360 Brass from Starline (https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/360-DW-Brass/)

I've also done the same thing with a 41 Mag using 414 Super Mag brass or 445 Super Mag brass in the 44 Mag.

Doesn't have to be a round nose bullet, any bullet heavy enough (long enough) with a sufficient driving band.

Yes, if you move the bullet forward in the case you increase volume and without working up the load again you would have less pressure/velocity.

You don't have to do this with trimmed brass but it works and is one way to go. Part of my reason for the 360 brass in the 357 Mag was I was experimenting with AA 1680 and heavy for caliber bullets & needed the extra case volume.

Rick

[runfiverun]

you are having the same problem i had with an early vaquero.
i could almost use 454 casull brass in my 45 colt chamber.
i done the same thing rick is doing by trimming the brass back @ halfway between the 454 and the 45 colt length.
i was trying to fill the gap and center everything,i even took to partial sizing of the case so the web was expanded squaring everything up to the throat.
all that for my mountain carry gun that wasn't all that overly accurate to begin with.

[roarin 54]

I am having the opposite result in my Ruger Bisley .45 Colt. I Just ordered a 45-270-SAA mould from RCBS. After casting and sizing to .452 and seating them in brass trimmed to 1.275", the loaded round wouldn't fully chamber. The case rims lacked 1/32" of seating against the cylinder. I ended up trimming them to 1.255" and seating the boolits to the very top of the crimp groove and then made sure that the rounds solidly drop into all six of the chambers. After about 50 rounds or so when the gun starts to get dirty, I have to press on the caseheads with my thumb to get them to chamber.

[cbrick]

Roarin, you sized .452" but did you slug the throats?

I use that same boolit from both the RCBS and MP molds in my Bisley, I would have to dig out my notes on what the throats slugged at but I size .452" and they drop in perfectly. With enough shooting I get a bit of lube build up in the cylinder/throats and they get a little snug but still chamber.

Slug your throats and then the barrel. The only reason for slugging the barrel is to know that groove diameter is at or a tick under throat diameters. If the throats are a bit small the cure isn't shortened brass but having the throats reamed.

The throats can be as much as .002" over groove diameter and it will shoot well. The key is that the throats are at or larger than groove dia., .452" diameter boolits should chamber easily.

Another possiblity is your sizing die being marked incorrectly. I've seen that before with SAECO dies though in that case it sized much smaller than marked. Did you check the diameter of your sized boolits with a good micrometer? Another possibility is the alloy your using, a high Sb alloy can actually have some spring back after sizing or grow a bit with aging. Did you try to slip fit your sized boolits through each throat? Personally I like a mild snug fit but if they can't be pushed through with no more pressure than tapping with a pencil it's too tight.

The bottom line is that you need to know accurate dimensions of your revolver and if the throats do need to be reamed that's not an expensive or complicated thing, any decent gunsmith can do it. The cylindersmith has a great reputation and is not expensive, you only need to send him the cylinder.

Rick

[roarin 54]

Cbrick, my throats are definitely undersized at at .4515" and my bore is .451" and I do have to drive my boolits through the chambers. My gun has little to no leading. I'm not sure if this warrants reaming to .4525" I have no problems with the Lee 255 grain flatpoints using the same alloy. My problem may be sizing the .454" slugs to .452" the front driving band seems to be elongated after sizing. I may make a dummy cartridge with an unsized boolit to see if there is a difference.

[cbrick]

Cbrick, my throats are definitely undersized at at .4515" and my bore is .451" and I do have to drive my boolits through the chambers.

The .451" bore is fine but driving a .452" boolit through the throats isn't. I can see at least a little pressure increase if you ever use a Jword bullet.

My gun has little to no leading. I'm not sure if this warrants reaming to .4525".

From your first post it seemed that there wasn't a leading issue but a chambering issue. Be a shame if you couldn't use that RCBS 270. There are two choices, get a .451" sizer die or ream the throats. If it were mine I would ream the throats.

I have no problems with the Lee 255 grain flatpoints using the same alloy.

Yes but you had to trim the brass to use RCBS SAA.

My problem may be sizing the .454" slugs to .452" the front driving band seems to be elongated after sizing.

If you decide on the .451" die I recommend lubing the bullets before sizing. When I need to size .003" or more I use the Hornady case lube, it's white stuff that comes in a little tub called unique. Just keeping a little on your fingers while handling the boolits to put them in the lubesizer is all that's needed, less bullet deformation and much easier to size.

Shame it's under size, the match between throats and bore is quite good but you shouldn't have to be limited in bullet selection and that RCBS 270 SAA really is a great bullet.

Rick

[runfiverun]

have you just tried seating the front driving band partially in the case?
if you are using a rippin load of h-110 or something this might not work but a load of maybe 17grs of 2400 might just have enough case tension to allow things to work without issue.

[MakeMineA10mm]

That's What I would think it should like.
If you look close at the picture, note the spot that the brass case ends at.
That's the spot my front band ends at, and that is about .200 away from the spot the taper begins at, no way I can load a bullet to resemble the picture.
HOWEVER,
my friend Jim a member here, sent me some RNFP from a group buy NOE mold
and it has 3 crimp rings, if I crimp in the last groove my bullet is very close to the picture. But that puts a lot less bullet in the case and that decreases the pressure
in the case and would need a new load work up. ( not that big of a deal )
Am I correct so far in my thinking ?
Or the bullet needs to be a RNFP that allows for the thickest part of the bullet to extend further out of the case, or the case needs to be longer and that would move everything forward and accomplish the same thing. But I think all these little changes would also change the load characteristics of the round.
Please fill in the blanks,

Gray, I think you've got it, but there's one blank to fill in.

When you say the forward drive band ends at the end of your case, I'm not sure what boolit you are speaking of. There are some RN, WC, and RNFPs that are made that way, but virtually all SWCs are designed to have a forward band that is seated out of the case.

Keith SWCs (as in my pic above) are designed with a long enough front drive band to get it to engage the throat upon loading. This "pre-aligns" the boolit into the throat and centers the boolit in the throat (if you've sized correctly). Otherwise, the boolit (and cartridge) lay in the bottom of the chamber with the boolit pointed ever-so-slightly towards the ground... At least in theory...

Some SWC boolit designers put a VERY short front drive band, because they don't want the band to engage the throat. This is because either: people have complained about the bullets, like your speculation in your post #1 above, or, they wanted the boolit to work at one sized diameter in most guns, so the shoulder out of the case stops just at or before the step from the chamber to the throat.

[gray wolf]

Gray, I think you've got it, but there's one blank to fill in.

When you say the forward drive band ends at the end of your case, I'm not sure what boolit you are speaking of.
Looking at the picture, the front band on my bullet loaded correctly would end at the spot in the picture that shows the end of the case mouth, way short of the throat. The bullet is the # 429421Lyman mold, the front band is .075 long. It is seated correctly and crimped correctly, the front band is NOT in the case.There are some RN, WC, and RNFPs that are made that way, but virtually all SWCs are designed to have a forward band that is seated out of the case. Yes I know this,And that's the way my bullet is seated. Front band is out of case mouth/COLOR]
Keith SWCs (as in my pic above) are designed with a long enough front drive band to get it to engage the throat upon loading. [COLOR="Red"]When loaded corectly my front band is .075 short of the throat, that is it would have to be .075 longer for me to feel any resistance when loading, indicating it is entering the throat. This "pre-aligns" the boolit into the throat and centers the boolit in the throat (if you've sized correctly). They are sized correctly, .432 going into a .432 throat, I am aware and agree with the concept.Otherwise, the boolit (and cartridge) lay in the bottom of the chamber with the boolit pointed ever-so-slightly towards the ground... At least in theory...
I agree again, but no way is it going to happen with me.
Some SWC boolit designers put a VERY short front drive band, because they don't want the band to engage the throat. My front band is .075 and it would have to be .150 to come close to what we are talking aboutThis is because either: people have complained about the bullets, like your speculation in your post #1 above, or, they wanted the boolit to work at one sized diameter in most guns, so the shoulder out of the case stops just at or before the step from the chamber to the throat.Not in my case, I only load for the one pistol and I want the front band into the throat.
__________________
So once again, the front drive band on my bullet, loaded correctly ends at the spot the brass case ends in the picture. In order to get what the picture shows or even come close, my cases would have to be at least .075 longer or .050 longer if the bullet had a .100 front band. Also when I clean the pistol I DO notice a little more crud (leading )
In the lower portion of the problem area, this could support what you said about the bullet laying down a little in the cylinder from not being supported.

[MakeMineA10mm]

OK, maybe I've missed something, or maybe you have an unusual situation...

What brand and caliber is your pistol?

What caliber is the brass you are using?

The only way the situation you are describing could exist is if it is a 44 Spl brass in a 44 Mag chamber (or, have you trimmed this brass, say to clean up the mouths that were cracking from crimp work-hardening?), or if the gun's manufacturer ran the chambering reamer too deep.

[gray wolf]

OK, maybe I've missed something, or maybe you have an unusual situation...

What brand and caliber is your pistol?Ruger 44Mag. Bisley Hunter

What caliber is the brass you are using?44 Mag

The only way the situation you are describing could exist is if it is a 44 Spl brass in a 44 Mag chamber (or, have you trimmed this brass, say to clean up the mouths that were cracking from crimp work-hardening?), Brass is mostly starline and some mixed head stamps, the trim length is 1.275 this is after sizing--they are naturally shorter when fired. or if the gun's manufacturer ran the chambering reamer too deep.
I see your points and have tried to answer them as accurately as I can.
The simplest way to put it is like this. Cylinder throats are .432---bullets are sized .432--- if I push a bullet into the cylinder from the front they are a slight snap fit with my thumb. So they are not under sized, if I load a 429421 250 grain bullet
( front band is .070 ) and crimp it in the crimp groove it looks like a normal loaded round and it drops into the chamber with no resistance. If I put the bullet in backwards and just seat it into the case a few thou. naturally it will not chamber.
So I keep seating a little at a time until the round drops into the cylinder.
At that point I have .150 of the bullet out of the case, so if the front band was the suggested .100 it would still be .050 short of hitting the throat. It seems to be at the beginning of the taper, and that's the place I get the lead ring. Am I wrong to think this indicates I am just getting to the .432 part of the cylinder throat ?
I don't know how else to communicate this.
If I take the cylinder out of the pistol and measure it
front to back with my caliper it is 1.700 long. +- .003
From the back of the cylinder to the beginning of the taper seems to be 1.300
The actual .432 throat seems to be .350 long
------------------------------------------------------
So here is what I get cylinder is 1.700 long
back of cylinder to taper 1.300
real throat is .350
about .050 for the taper, .050
-------------
= 1.700
Just did another test this time I took an unsized bullet .434 and inserted it backwards in the case and seated it until it just chambered, I had the same .150 of bullet sticking out of the case. The overall length of the case with the backward seated bullet is 1.423 I think that means I need at least .150 of full diameter bullet sticking out of the case in order for the fattest part (.432) of the bullet to be just toughing the start of the throat. I believe that drawing showed the front band in the actual throat.
Granted I my be off a little + - .004 but I don't think I am .050 off

[MakeMineA10mm]

I agree. Your methodology is very sound. I also think you've done everything you can do as far as figuring this out with the materials at hand. I think the next step to really figure things out is to make a chamber cast with cerrosafe. Then you could really measure exactly what the shape and dimensions of the chamber and throats are.

After re-reading your answers a couple times, I also got to thinking there are a couple possibilities:

1) Still, the chambering reamer could have been run .050" too deep...

2) Another possibility that I'm thinking about is that the throat itself may be tapered. In other words, the rear .050" of the throat may be bigger than the .432" measurements you are getting at the mouth of the throats (front of cylinder), possibly tapered, so that there isn't interference with the shoulders on SWC boolits.

Maybe Ruger got some complaints about it and did this? I know in my S&Ws the shelf between the chamber and the throats is not as abrupt as the drawing I posted above (but I've never measured it). That drawing, by the way, is of a Freedom Arms 44 Special, and it is based on a casting of the chamber (it's not my gun). I'm guessing different manufacturers handle the transition from the chamber to the throat itself a little differently

[gray wolf]

Well thank you for your help so far. I think a chamber cast would be more accurate
but I think it only confirm what I know now. Perhaps a tiny bit more accurate.
Closer observation is leading me to think you are correct about the tapered throat.
larger in the rear, smaller in the front. So I have better idea of what the chamber looks like BUT, still no answers abut the lead ring in the taper at the beginning of the throat. Still seems the usual suspects, harder bullet, longer nose like a RNFP,
perhaps a longer full size bearing surface like the 429667. Just know it's a pain in the keesta to clean, even with a Lewis lead remover. Ruger said to just scrape it out. A gunsmith said "live with it, veral at LBT molds said to use his 260 grain WFN
with a long nose profile with his lube and he would guaranty it wouldn't lead the cylinder. I can't buy a Lee mold let alone one of LBTs--so now we all no what I know. Just that I hate to give up on something, it's not something I do well..

[MakeMineA10mm]

Two other suggestions/thoughts:

If the throat is tapered rather than abrupt, the front band is not engaging the throat in the way it was designed, and again (as with boolits with no front band), gravity may be causing the rounds to lay at a very slight angle to the chamber. Since you are tenacious ( :) ), you could try neck-sizing the cases to see if a long-enough portion of the rear of the case could be kept so that the boolit "hangs" in the air against gravity, so it is more-aligned with the throat. This will cause the boolit to "jump" and may negatively effect accuracy, rather than helping - no way to know til you try... Also, you could leave your boolits unsized and see if any additional diameter on that front band will help. (This is where a cerrosafe cast could help - you could see exactly how wide the beginning of the throat is.)

Second, as far as cleaning goes, I use an oversize tornado brush to clean the crud build-up in my 357 cylinders (from shooting 38s). For my 44's chambers, I use a 45-cal tornado brush. I put it on a short cleaning rod, which is chucked in my drill, and less than a minute polishes it right up. (Don't use these brushes in your barrel, though. They are stainless steel and strong enough to wear rifling if used aggressively. For smooth chambers, they are fine.)

What kind of accuracy are you getting with this "deep-throat" (pardon the pun)? If it's failing in that regard, I'd contact Ruger with a detailed explanation of the complaint.

[gray wolf]

I don't have any cerrosafe metal, but I agree it would tell the tale.
I have thought about the neck sizing only, it would help to center the bullet. I am using RCBS dies now and the sizer leaves a little UN-sized portion at the rear just before the web. This helps with the back end but the front still has a wiggle and I'm sure the case slumps a little. It does look like the throat is a little bigger right after the taper. Like I said the effect was the same with a .434 bullet as the .432 bullet.
.434 went into the rear of the throat but no way does it go in from the front.
Seems a little strange that I would need such a big bullet to engage the throat in the rear and then have to drive it through the small front of the throat.

[gray wolf]

For all the folks trying to help on this. I have added some pictures in an effort
to try an further explain the problem.
The picture of the 3 bullets show a loaded 429421 250 grain SWC loaded normally.
Another picture of the same bullet loaded backwards and slowly seated until I felt the throat, the end of the backward bullet is .150 out of the case and it just starts to hit the throat. It has not been sized and is .434 the cylinder throats at the front are .432
The other Pic. is a RNFP I made a mark on this bullet at the place it starts to hit the throat at the widest point of the bullet, that spot is also .150 out of the case.
This is what I mean when I say I could never load a bullet to engage the throat.
The front band on the SWC would have to be .150 + a tad to get into the throat.

54106

The other Pics. are to show the cylinder front and back and the chamber throats.
the tool rings in the beginning of the throat and the taper. If you look close you can still see some lead in the transition area after the chamber at the start of the throat. That is the area that leads badly. The throats do seem to be tapered as a .434 goes in from the back, but no way in from the front. I hope this adds something, and thank you again.

54108

54109

[bones37]

For all the folks trying to help on this. I have added some pictures in an effort
to try an further explain the problem.
The picture of the 3 bullets show a loaded 429421 250 grain SWC loaded normally.
Another picture of the same bullet loaded backwards and slowly seated until I felt the throat, the end of the backward bullet is .150 out of the case and it just starts to hit the throat. It has not been sized and is .434 the cylinder throats at the front are .432
The other Pic. is a RNFP I made a mark on this bullet at the place it starts to hit the throat at the widest point of the bullet, that spot is also .150 out of the case.
This is what I mean when I say I could never load a bullet to engage the throat.
The front band on the SWC would have to be .150 + a tad to get into the throat.

54106

The other Pics. are to show the cylinder front and back and the chamber throats.
the tool rings in the beginning of the throat and the taper. If you look close you can still see some lead in the transition area after the chamber at the start of the throat. That is the area that leads badly. The throats do seem to be tapered as a .434 goes in from the back, but no way in from the front. I hope this adds something, and thank you again.

54108

54109

Looks exactly like my cylinder, and leading in the same manner as You describe.

[40Super]

I'd say the tooling marks are acting like a cheese grater to the corner of your swc. The other bullet is already past that part so it doesn't rub against it. Is threre any way you can polish that transition to smoothen it up? Beyond just neck sizing to minimize the hit or going with longer cases so your swc shoulder is positioned correctly in the throat, there may not be much else to do with that particular bullet in that gun.

Have you tried a harder alloy just to see how it changes things, maybe one instance where harder helps?

[gray wolf]

I'd say the tooling marks are acting like a cheese grater to the corner of your swc. I/we thought the same thingThe other bullet is already past that part so it doesn't rub against it. Is threre any way you can polish that transition to smoothen it up? Not sure I wouldn't want to egg it outBeyond just neck sizing to minimize the hit or going with longer cases so your swc shoulder is positioned correctly in the throat, How would I get cases that are longer by the amount I need ? there may not be much else to do with that particular bullet in that gun. What other bullet, I would need a much longer full width area ?

Have you tried a harder alloy just to see how it changes things, maybe one instance where harder helps? That has been suggested and may be a viable option.
I am thinking someplace in the pictures lies the answer.

[gray wolf]

Well I sent Ruger a very nice polite E-mail last night (Sunday Night )
Explaining what is going on along with the pics in my post.
First thing this morning I got a shipping label for U P S and a phone call saying send it in, they want to look at it. So it's on the table waiting for U P S.
If it's me ? I will deal with me, if it's the pistol then let Ruger deal with it.
I can't get longer cases, I can't buy a new mold, I can't deal with the leaded cylinders anymore. I really think I have done what I could with what I have.
I want them to look at the fire wall also it's developed 3 diggers around the case head area. Never had a blackened or blown primer, started with 1 now it's got three. If I release the hammer like I don't want to shoot the round the hammer catches on something on the way down. The cylinder has to much movement, not end shake, not side to side, it's more of a wobble, press left on the bottom of the cylinder and the top goes to the right, and Visa/Versa.
Again if it's in speck--so be it. But I ain't happy, and I have been trying to work this out for quite a while and think I have bothered the forum enough.
I will let all know what goes down, it's a holiday week so it may take some time. I want to truly thank all you fine folks for all the advise and help with this.
Bottom line: If I need to learn more--I will.
If it needs to be fixed so be it, I miss it and it's not even picked up yet.

[cbrick]

I have been trying to work this out for quite a while and think I have bothered the forum enough.

Aw shucks Mr.Wolf, you ain't no bother. :mrgreen:

Rick

[gray wolf]

Thank you for that Rick,

[bones37]

Well I sent Ruger a very nice polite E-mail last night (Sunday Night )
Explaining what is going on along with the pics in my post.
First thing this morning I got a shipping label for U P S and a phone call saying send it in, they want to look at it. So it's on the table waiting for U P S.
If it's me ? I will deal with me, if it's the pistol then let Ruger deal with it.
I can't get longer cases, I can't buy a new mold, I can't deal with the leaded cylinders anymore. I really think I have done what I could with what I have.
I want them to look at the fire wall also it's developed 3 diggers around the case head area. Never had a blackened or blown primer, started with 1 now it's got three. If I release the hammer like I don't want to shoot the round the hammer catches on something on the way down. The cylinder has to much movement, not end shake, not side to side, it's more of a wobble, press left on the bottom of the cylinder and the top goes to the right, and Visa/Versa.
Again if it's in speck--so be it. But I ain't happy, and I have been trying to work this out for quite a while and think I have bothered the forum enough.
I will let all know what goes down, it's a holiday week so it may take some time. I want to truly thank all you fine folks for all the advise and help with this.
Bottom line: If I need to learn more--I will.
If it needs to be fixed so be it, I miss it and it's not even picked up yet.

Gray, keep us informed on what happens. I may have to send mine back also.

bones37

[MakeMineA10mm]

Excellent! Be sure to keep us informed. I'd probably include a concise, specific note about the issues. If it were me, I'd include two dummy rounds (1 w/ normal-seated Keith boolit, & 1 w/ the reversed one showing how deep the boolit goes before engaging the throat). I really think that's going to be the issue, but the big question mark is whether Ruger feels that is "in spec" for them...

One of the things I've learned as a past business owner is that you can't please everyone, and if you can set stuff up to please the biggest majority of people, that's best in the long run. In this situation, my biggest worry is that they take an attitude of: "this is a $500 gun, not a $1000 Freedom Arms; therefore, it's not going to be built or spec'ed like one.". I hope that's not the case, but we'll see. So far, they seem DARNED interested in satisfying you. That's a GOOD sign!!

[gray wolf]

They have the pics that I posted here, and I tried very hard to explain the issues with the cylinder, how the 429421 S W C does not reach the throat, the tool rings in the cylinder,
(B T W did you notice them in the pictures ?) I hear what you say about building for the masses. I wonder if they smooth out the tool mark area if it would help ?
But then again the bullet would still not go into the throat.
I think the bullet should start it's trip to the barrel from in the throat, not crashing into it.
What say Ya,all

[cbrick]

"this is a $500 gun, not a $1000 Freedom Arms;

Where do you get your FA's, that's where I want to shop.


I think the bullet should start it's trip to the barrel from in the throat, not crashing into it. What say Ya,all

Now where have I heard that? :mrgreen:

Rick

[MakeMineA10mm]

Cbrick! LOL! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I was rounding! ;)

The only FA I've ever handled was a used one in 454 that I helped the widow sell. IIRC she got $1200 for it. I really want a 97 in 44 Spl., but only if I win the lottery!

[runfiverun]

passed on the F.A 44 special for three ruger 44 specials,wouldn't have, but the wife wanted one too.
then couldn't make up her mind and spent my entire bonus check....

sam this is a pretty informative thread, i really hope a lot of people read it.

the issue really is that the chambers are cut too long,ruger is pretty famous for doing that.
it is a safety thing too, as it acts like a marlin/contender.weatherbys' throat [freebore] does and gives the initial gas someplace to go while the pressure is rising.

[gray wolf]

Not trying to beat a dead horse up to much---
or jump ahead of what Ruger may say-BUT

the issue really is that the chambers are cut too long,ruger is pretty famous for doing that.
it is a safety thing too, as it acts like a marlin/contender.weatherbys' throat [freebore] does and gives the initial gas someplace to go while the pressure is rising.
OK, hear is my thought and I want to know if this could be a possible error on Rugers part. I don't want to post all the numbers cause it gets confusing--to me anyway.
The Max case length for the 44 mag is 1.285 --the case rim thickness on average seems to be .055 --that means that 1.230 of actual case is in the chamber.
1.230 + .055 gives us 1.285 when I seated my bullets backwards in the case as in my Pics. I was .150 short of the beginning of the throat. Meaning the front band would have to be .150 thick to get into the taper and close to the throat.
.100 for the front band + .050 additional that it's short
So here is my thought since the case head is .055 thick. I think when they cut the chamber they used the full length of the case, case head and all. well the case head don't go in the chamber, so that measurement would make the chamber .055 to long.
Factor in the taper before the throat and a little buffer for someone with extra long cases
say an extra .010 and there is no way that front band is going in the throat.
Specially if the case is trimmed say .005 to 1.275
I think the chamber should be cut to 1.230 + .005 for a ***** extra long case and no taper, or at least very little. if the bullet goes into the throat whats the need for the taper ? I think this would make an ideal cast bullet shooter. But in an effort to make a one size fits all chamber they made them to long + what it says in the quote above. This is what I may say to Ruger when I speak to them
Am I all wet here ? any other thought on what I said. ( if you can understand it )
Makes sense to me.

[Willbird]

Ok I read the whole thread to see if anybody else posted this, and nobody has, so here goes :-).

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm

If you go to the link, click on cartridge and chamber drawings, then on pistol and revolver.....you get an index of ctg, then if you hold your tongue right and use the right browser a drawing will open up...it worked in firefox for me.

This direct link MAY work...seems to take a few minutes to open..

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/44%20Remington%20Magnum.pdf

Anyway the straight cylinder portion of the chamber(from the rear of a rim recess which does not exist in most revolvers), where the case sits according to SAAMI should be 1.3083"..the lead will taper down to .4325" (yuck)..and that point will be 1.3734" (again from the rear of a chamber with a rim recess).

Subtract .065" mean dimension for the rim recess (.06 to .07) and we get 1.2433"(straight cylinder) and 1.3084"(end of lead and beginning of throat).

Saami says the case should measure in the neighborhood of 1.225" from front of rim to end of case. So a purely spec chamber would allow a .433 sharp cornered wadcutter around .083" and still chamber...all depending on how much you stack tolerances and which way.

Bill

[Mal Paso]

I've shot thousands of .430 44 Specials through .428 throats in 44 Mag Cylinders where the distance to throat was longer and no lead in the chamber although accuracy wasn't great. I'm thinking too if lead was just shaved it would blow out with the gas.

I think I can guarantee you Ruger never intended for the front bullet band to be in the throat.

Did you ever measure the chamber diameter? If you have fired brass it will be like.002" bigger.

If the boolits are throat size I doubt they obturate before they hit the forcing cone.


The way your lead is bonded to the chamber I don't think it's shaving.

If the chamber were too large, the space between the case and bullet might be large enough for gas to escape with enough speed to gas cut the bullet.

If your gun comes back unaltered try BLT's cure and shoot some .434" Boolits and see if it stops leading.

[gray wolf]

If your gun comes back unaltered try BLT's cure and shoot some .434" Boolits and see if it stops leading.
Did you mean to say one of Veral smiths LFN from LBT ? I spoke to him and he said he would stand behind his bullet mold and his bullet would not lead the cylinder.
He said the mold should be 260 grain WFN PB with Max. nose length. He said there would be less bullet in the case but that would not be a problem and to just work up the new loads. I told him I didn't want to shoot to heavy a bullet that's why he said 260 grain. I think I could be happy with a 275 grain also, I could load them down a little to ease recoil for up to 50 yard shooting ( I guess ) I have never seen one of these WFN bullets or held one in my hand. While all that sounds good I could never afford one of his molds, 225$$ for a 2 hole Aluminum. If I ever could afford a mold I would like Iron or brass. I wonder who else can make a mold like he designed. ( bullet shape )
PS still no word from Ruger.

[Mal Paso]

No I meant BLT Sandwedge the Forum Member who increased the bullet size a couple thousandths and the chamber leading stopped.

260 is a great weight for 44. A couple members are trying for a rerun of the MP 432256 down in the Group Buy section. At 263g it's a clone of the last 44 Keith bullet and my most accurate. Put your name on the list. A 4 cavity solid in brass should be just over $100.

If you still get leading try .434" Bullets before you buy a .432" mold.

[gray wolf]

260 is a great weight for 44. A couple members are trying for a rerun of the MP 432256 down in the Group Buy section. At 263g it's a clone of the last 44 Keith bullet and my most accurate. Put your name on the list. A 4 cavity solid in brass should be just over $100.
I'm sure that is a fine mold, but remember me ? I'm the poor one,
I sure need a mold but I don't have the money and it's not likely I will anytime soon.
I am very sorry if I sounded like I could afford one.
The only way I got the pistol is someone bought my old beautiful BP rifle
And it covered the pistol cost.

[40Super]

I see Starline sells a brass case that can be trimmed to whatever extra length you would need in your 44Mag. It is called the 445 Super Magnum, it comes 1.600" long so you can trim down to .100" longer than the standard .44Mag if it fits. Then you can have the bullet seated into the throats without it sticking out of the case mouth so far. I THINK it could work if need be. The chamber would have to not have a shoulder at 1.3" to use longer brass. Depends what Ruger does.

[cbrick]

I see Starline sells a brass case that can be trimmed to whatever extra length you would need in your 44Mag. It is called the 445 Super Magnum, it comes 1.600"

Good idea 40Super. [smilie=1:

See post #11 in this thread for a very similair idea. :mrgreen:

Don't know about today but the last time I checked direct from Starline was cheaper than Midway.

Rick

[40Super]

Ya I know Cbrick, I was following up on an earlier post by me where I had stated to get the longer brass( as you posted)and trim longer. GreyWolf questioned that he couldn't get longer 44 brass.

[gray wolf]

I called Starline and they looked at the specs and said that brass would work, just the web is a tad thicker and shouldn't be a problem.

[Willbird]

Good idea 40Super. [smilie=1:

See post #11 in this thread for a very similair idea. :mrgreen:

Don't know about today but the last time I checked direct from Starline was cheaper than Midway.

Rick

BUT, Starline only comes (250 for some) 500/1000.

Looking at 445 super mag, Midway has 100/500 for $41.49/$192.99. Starline is 250/500/1000 $138/$205.5/$357.50. Midway is quite a bit cheaper for 500 or less.

[gray wolf]

I saw that also, but it don't matter much, I can't get em anyway.
But it may help someone else with a problem. I like to think that's what these thread are all about.
Sam

[Willbird]

I saw that also, but it don't matter much, I can't get em anyway.
But it may help someone else with a problem. I like to think that's what these thread are all about.
Sam

yes indeed it is :-).