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starmac
11-11-2012, 11:38 PM
I stole this off another forum.
Just a reminder to be careful and even pay attention to whose on the bench beside you.

At the local outdoor range an Oriental man blew the living snot out of his brand new Savage yesterday morning. I'm not a Savage connoisseur but it was a nice law enforcement model with a fluted heavy barrel and a fairly nice looking stock.

The man had facial injuries. The bolt blew back and hit him in the safety glasses. From there it slide down and punctured the cheek skin and ripped a large chunk of flesh off his face, bone was exposed. The range safety officers administered first aid and called an EMT. The local sheriff department showed up with the fire truck/EMT team.

The barrel and stock appeared to be intact, I wasn't able to inspect the rifle. The action swelled and the bolt shot out into his face. I listened to some of the questions the safety officers were asking. Evidently he wanted more velocity out of his load so he substituted a pistol powder in place of his normal powder load. This guy is a true idiot and fortunate to be alive.

Something that I thought was interesting. The sheriff took the rifle and ammo into his possession. Perhaps they will examine it or maybe they just keep it until the shooter claims it.

I never really thought about the dangers of shooting near another hand loader. I generally don't shoot anyone's load. The exception is close friends with safe reloading practices. I think anyone within 25 feet of this clown was in danger. The thought of pistol powder in a rifle makes me cringe. If this rifle would have been a light weight non tactical version instead of a heavy action heavy barrel version it probably would have scatter steel everywhere.

Be careful out there..

Jailer
11-12-2012, 12:00 AM
Cops taking the gun is not unusual.

Buddy of mine had the cylinder of his 44 mag lock up out of time on him with a round loaded. He was trying to get it un locked and it rotated, went off, and he shot himself in the hand. It took him a year and a half to get his gun back from the cops.

waksupi
11-12-2012, 12:35 AM
Something is missing in the story. I think the chamber would have blown, before the locking lugs would have sheered and launched the bolt. That don't make sense. I recall P.O. Ackley totally removed locking lugs from a bolt, and ran hot loads through a rifle. The bolt stayed in place.

3006guns
11-12-2012, 12:52 AM
I agree with waksupi.......there's more to the story. To state that the "action swelled" is to ignore the physics involved. I just can't see the receiver "swelling" enough to allow the bolt lugs to slip out of their recesses, and if it did the shooter should have been killed outright. Could it have been the bolt plug or other parts that blew off and hit the shooter? Perhaps we can get more later? A close examination with photos is needed.

I also agree that the injured shooter is an idiot who knows nothing of the burning rates of powders and the pressures involved, which must have been tremendous. It was a painful lesson for him.....but no one else thank God.

If you read Hatcher's Notebook, you'll find a section where Major Hatcher investigated ALL reports of rifle failures involving the 1903 and 1917 rifles. Every report that stated "bolt blew out" or "bolt sheared its lugs" turned out to be false as the rifles are far stronger than we imagine. There were injuries from bits and pieces but the bolts stayed in the guns. (the only exception was the failures of the brittle "low number" receivers)

429421Cowboy
11-12-2012, 02:54 AM
I gotta also agree with Ric here, i have seen videos of rifles loaded with Bullseye to simulate a powder mixup and fired remotely, in all cases the chamber went first, often times in one big chunk straight up. I can't think of a case i have heard of with a modern gun where the bolt has let go before the chamber has (they said Savage, not Ross!!). There is just so much more metal on the lugs and recever than the chamber, and i'd think pistol powder would cause a pressure spike so fast it would blast out the chamber, rather than a slower case failure that would vent gas back in the action and bolt.
I recently have had the pleasure to aquire one of Ackley's excelent books, and he truely tested a rifle, just to see what happened! Also what i noted, was that often times with the stronger actions, even after blown barrels, blasted extractors and set back lugs from overloads, improper cartridges, barrel obstructions or whatever else he did, he often would rebarrel an action and do whatever it took to headspace properly and continue to use the rifle!

I see stories like this as something that gives handloading a poor public view, and even goes so far as to discourage people from shooting next to handloaders!

Hamish
11-12-2012, 10:39 AM
"The sheriff took the rifle and ammo into his possession"

I would bet a doughnut that there will be charges against him for endangerment due to his deviation of known "safe" loading practice.

dagger dog
11-12-2012, 07:11 PM
My mothers youngest brother was killed in a similar fashion, he was hunting though, had a modified Jap Arisaka, and the bolt went through the right side of his skull.

hiram1
11-12-2012, 08:28 PM
cops always take your gun for what ever reason.then you have to pay to get them back.But if you let them take your guns with out fighting or what ever then you sould have to pay.I guess.

firefly1957
11-12-2012, 09:06 PM
I have blown up a Siamese Mauser on purpose by loading the case with Bullseye the bolt did stay in place the barrel/chamber were undamaged the action did give and one piece was not found. I suspect the action was damaged by the case coming apart at the primer and allowing the very high pressure gas into the action.

As said above i am wondering if we have the whole story but it is quite possible the bolt lugs sheared as we have no idea how many HOT SHOTS this guy may have fired. Is it possible the gun went off with a unlocked bolt due to a high primer or other issue with the gun/shooter?

Boerrancher
11-12-2012, 10:28 PM
Sorry to say but I believe the story is well... to put it bluntly B.S. The way a Savage bolt gun is built, there is no physical way for what was described in the story to have happened. The design on the front receiver ring and front half of the bolt on a Savage is copied from the Arisaka rifles which have been proven to be one of the strongest actions in the world. The nose of the bolt actually goes inside the barrel. This design causes the chamber to be farther forward. There is no way to swell the receiver ring, as the majority of the cartridge is out in front of it. Had the story went, " the barrel was nearly blow of and pieces of it where the chamber was went flying," it would have been believable.

Best wishes,

Joe

starmac
11-12-2012, 10:29 PM
Is it possible that something could have blown up without following the rules?

Boerrancher
11-12-2012, 10:55 PM
Is it possible that something could have blown up without following the rules?

You can blow one up that is for sure. I shed the locking lugs on a 98 Mauser while proofing it for a 7 mag build. I will say this, "the safety lug held." I later found out from the guy who brought it to me that the bold had been in a gun that had went through a fire.

There are many ways to wreck a good rifle. That is why there are many rule books in print and are updated on a regular basis. Heck I worked on a Model 70, 270 Win that a guy loaded and fired a 308 Win out of and then wondered why he couldn't get the bolt open. At least it turn loose anywhere on him. It did set the locking lugs back some.

Best wishes,

Joe

303Guy
11-15-2012, 12:50 AM
I do believe the barrel and chamber would survive while the action itself would fail. The action swelling sounds about right as the shearing bolt lugs would 'cam' the locking recesses out as they roll with the bolts rearward motion. Pistol powder in a 308 will make something break for sure.

My uncle who was a gunsmith told me of a fellow who brought in a shattered action in a bag. The salesman who sold this chap the rifle also sold him reloading components - pistol powder! The barrel was intact. So was the shooter, luckily.

The story sounds about right to me. (I have been known to be wrong, so ... )

starmac
11-16-2012, 08:51 PM
More from the OP.

I have a friend that works at the range. I'll be back there Wednesday shooting some loads for my daughters 243. I'll see if I can dig up any additional information.
The only thing he confirmed was that the bolt failed. He said the lugs sheared off, he actually had a close look at the rifle. I tried to expand on whether or not the bolt is a two piece design and if it came apart at the junction or if the steel actually sheared at the lugs, he didn't say.

Either way it was a huge over pressure issue. Taking a look at a few books it appears that most loads slower than 4895 with the 168 bullet class are nearly full case loads. He would have to of had a much faster burn powder to build enough pressure to blow his rifle apart.

Or the whole thread here.
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/125070-Explosion-308-Win/page2

leftiye
11-17-2012, 06:30 AM
Cops taking the gun is not unusual.

Buddy of mine had the cylinder of his 44 mag lock up out of time on him with a round loaded. He was trying to get it un locked and it rotated, went off, and he shot himself in the hand. It took him a year and a half to get his gun back from the cops.

They take guns whenever possible.

merlin101
11-17-2012, 09:49 PM
.

Something that I thought was interesting. The sheriff took the rifle and ammo into his possession. Perhaps they will examine it or maybe they just keep it until the shooter claims it.


It's a fire arm and the owner is not capable of careing for it at that time, of course LEO will take charge of it.
I was in an auto accident years ago and the EMS guys found my little .380 and turned it over to the local LEO's for safety, I had no problem at all getting it back.

leadman
11-17-2012, 11:18 PM
Ackley removed the locking bolts from Win lever guns and fired them. He did do destructive testing on bolt actions, with the Arisaka coming out on top.

This was at a local range here in Az, Usery Pass. Can't believe nothing has been on the local boards.

From the report the guy is lucky to be alive.

cajun shooter
11-18-2012, 09:25 AM
The statements made here about cops taking guns is plum sickening to me as a former Officer of the law.
It shows that instead of thinking, they just want to jump on the band wagon and point fingers with misinformation.
First, if your firearm is taken after a accident it is for good reason. The reason is that the firearm will be examined by firearms experts to make sure that this was the fault of the owner and not an attempt on his life from someone like a wife or family member trying to come into a inheritance early.
Lets say that one fired case was found to be full of Bullseye and all the other rounds were found to contain IMR4895. That would be good reason to go further with the investigation. Maybe they would find metal parts that had been exposed to some sort of product to cause early failure. There are many possibilities.
How many of you realize that in some states a law enforcement officer has to go to any home where a natural death has been reported? The reason should be plain enough, granny was strangled so the family could cash in.
I have never seen any firearm taken at such a scene have the rightful owner charged any fees when they come to recover it. That is a load of cow manure.
What if all cops failed to show up tommorow? Later David Former Army 4th ID 65-68 and law officer 1974-1990

ROGER4314
11-26-2012, 12:00 PM
Although a cartridge case full of Bullseye has capacity to destroy almost anything, I still wonder if he had an obstructed muzzle. I volunteered at our range junior shoot where we had club M1 Garands with free (club loaded) ammo for many kids. I was standing right next to a kid with a Garand rifle when I heard a muffled "POP". I stopped him immediately before he sent another round down that obstructed barrel. I stopped the firing and inspected the ammo. There were many rounds with NO powder. We did a shake test on every round before we continued shooting. Luckily, it was easy to find empty cartridges by the sound or we would have shut the program down. Guys.....that's all it takes to have a tragedy!

If the shooter in this story charged rifle cases with Bullseye, I can't believe that people who are smart enough to walk around on their own would do a foolish thing like that. I've heard that God takes care of fools and drunks. The man was more than lucky. Angels saved his hide!

Flash

Jailer
11-26-2012, 01:48 PM
Cajun Shooter, my reply was not intended as a slander of law enforcement. When I posted that it's not unusual for law enforcement to confiscate a weapon I meant it as a matter of investigation.

In my buddies case he showed up in the emergency room to seek care for his wounds and when he mentioned a gun hospital staff immediately called the local law enforcement (as well they should). They grilled my buddy pretty hard and for some reason didn't want to believe him and his story. I'm sure the fact that he was 21 or 22 at the time had something to do with it. Either way for whatever reason they held on to it for an unusually long time before giving it back to him.