Ladle Casting Education

[gunboat57]

For the last 12 years or so I've been a beginner in the art of boolit casting. Until recently I used a Lee Pro bottom pour furnace. I did all my smelting in the same furnace so I had all kinds of crud coming out the bottom and showing up in my finished boolits. I also had some zinc contamination too which I'm dealing with.:roll:

Anyway, I plugged the bottom of my furnace and got a ladle, the kind that has its own little spout on the side. My first few casting attempts yielded boolits better than I've ever gotten before. The biggest I cast are 45-70-405s and HB 500 gr .474s for a Martini-Henry.

Is there someplace I can see a video or step by step pictures showing the proper way to cast with a ladle? I'm especially interested in learning how it's done holding the spout of the dipper up against the mold sprue plate.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

gunboat,

By no means an expert here, I've just been doing it for a long time.

First, I'd get away from the electric pot if at all possible, an old white gas or a modern gas Coleman gas stove works great. - check the classifieds and yard sales.

Then much better then the ladle or dippers with the nipple on the side is, a Rowell bottom pour ladle. You can find them on the net. I think the company is the Car Mover Company.

Then get a used cast iron kettle that will hold 40 or more pounds of alloy and your set to go.

The large pot, will not only allow casting at a steady rate because of it's capacity, but make it much easier to get the ladle filled the the small opening on an electic pot.

I'd need 4 or 5 good sized Lyman, RCBS or?? electric pots all going at the same time to begin keeping up, while the larger cast iron kettle and good heat source make it easy to keep plenty of metal up to temp, while adding back my sprews and small ingets, ALL the while still casting.

Do not buy a cast iron skillet for a casting pot, they are not deep enough. You need a pot with some depth.

The bottom pour ladle is much better then placing the nipple on the mold and then turning the combination of ladle an mold up right, unless your using a single cavity mold.

I like and use 4 cavity or bigger molds whenever possible.

With the bottom pour ladle, I like to start my alloy stream just to the edge of the mold blocks, then while pouring at steady rate, move the flow from cavity to cavity as they fill, making sure to allow a large enough puddle to form over the sprue plate to provide metal for shrinkage as the the alloy cools in the cavities.

If you use the ladle with the nipple, place them together and then tip over to begin the pour, you will need to allow the alloy to cool/harden long enough to prevent it from flowing out of the mold cavity before you can turn the mold back on it's side to begin filling a second cavity.

Very slow and you will have a hard time keeping the metal at the proper temp in the ladle between pouring cavities.

I have one or two of the Lyman ladles with the nipple, have seldom used them since I bought the MUCH better Rowell ladle and even when trying the others with the turning process, have never found it to work well.

The Rowell bottom pour ladle assures that the alloy flowing into your mold is the cleanest metal in your ladle as it 100% of the time comes from the bottom of the metal contained in the ladle.

Keep us posted.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[gwpercle]

gunboat57,

Had similar results. For years cast with pot and ladle...thinking I would cast more and better with bottom pour, I invested in a new and improved bottom pour furnace. Results were dismal...went back to the old ladle. I cast better with the old ladle and open top furnace. How did you plug your bottom pour so it didn't leak. I want to plug mine but I don't want it to leak...You got a good way?

gary

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Not Bottom pour pot, but a bottom pour ladle. Two totally different things.

Check out the bottom pout ladles on the net.

CDOC

[Hamish]

I think this is what was mentioned:

http://catalog.advancecarmover.com/category/rowell-ladles?

[I'll Make Mine]

From the budget side of town, I bought a stainless serving spoon at the local Big Lots, heated it red hot and deepened the bowl with a ball peen hammer, then raised the sides and extended and narrowed the tip a little, finally bending the shank about 70º to the left, to make for comfortable pouring in my right hand. It's been working very well for my two-cavity Lee molds, dipping from an old coated cast iron cooking pot (1 quart saucepan) that I've had for twenty-some years. First time casting, ever, and this equipment was getting me good boolits after only three or four casts (in a preheated mold).

I'd love one of those Rowell ladles (the one pound size looks very much like the Lyman casting ladle), but for now, what I have will work (and cost next to nothing).

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Unless it is something new for Lyman, they do not have a bottom pour ladle.

Hamish
is correct, that is the one and it as I have said before, better then anything I've ever tried.


CDOC

[I'll Make Mine]

Perhaps there's a subtle distinction, but the Lyman casting "dipper" has a spout similar to the Rowell, though there's an attached hood that, by appearances, would allow an even more "bottom" pour (the filled ladle can be rotated so the spout is genuinely on the bottom, instead of just below the lead surface as with the Rowell). What would make this design (which certainly seems to draw lead from the "bottom" of the contained melt) not a bottom pour ladle?

Lyman dippers on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=lyman+ladle&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=lyman+dipper&_sacat=0) linked for the nice close-up photos.

[gunboat57]

Gwpercle, I just found a small flat headed screw that I screwed into the bottom hole from inside the furnace pot. It sealed the hole just fine and could probably be removed someday if I ever wanted to.

I like the idea behind those Rowell bottom pour ladles, you get oxide-free melt right at the first drop. But the spout isn't really shaped to fit into the conical hole of the sprue plate, is it? What do you call that, pressure casting? when you put the spout to the sprue hole and then rotate mold and ladle together to fill the mold.

I think my ladle is a Lyman because it has the spout on the side.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

The Lyman or RCBS dippers are side pour unless the dipper is rotated almost completely on it's side.

OK, fine. However as it moves from one position to the other, the flow of alloy changes from top towards the bottom, while the Rowell bottom pour is always and forever 100% bottom pour and can never be any other way unless a person attempted to pour from the other side of the ladle.

Then, if you are using multi-cavity molds, the Lyman or RCBS with the side nipple with change back and forth from top pour to what you refer to as bottom pour as it's position is changed from cavity to cavity.

The volumn of metal in the Lyman or RCBS is not great enough to allow a continued flow of alloy without going back to the pot.

Yep, been there and have one or two of those dippers in my casting stuff.

When I was learning my way around my 45/70 molds, I again tried the Lyman dipper with the side nipple. Well that came to a stop rather quickly as it just is not up to the task when put side by side to the true bottom pour ladle.

Not only is it not large enough to continually pour and fill 4 - 465gr cavities, it is just not even close to the Rowell bottom pour.

Like I said, been there and used both styles and used the Lyman dipper for years until I learned there was a much better way.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Gunboat57,

Yes, I think I have heard it refered to as pressure casting, however I find it to be a problem on anything beyond a single cavity mold.

Slow, as in order to prevent a lop sided base, the mold must remain in position until the alloy cools, which means I must remove the little nipple from the sprew plate and then reset to the next cavity by rotating the ladle or allowing the alloy to flow as i move from cavity to cavity.

That is OK, but because of the small capacity of the Lyman dipper, that won't work withour refilling the dipper a time or two on the big bullets.

With the Rowell bottom pour, the mold remains in a semi-flat position, I establish the alloy flow off the center and then as the alloy continues to flow I move the stream from cavity to cavity.

AS said earlier, have been there and done that with the nipple dippers for years and the Rowell bottom pour is truely a better way.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[gunboat57]

Crusty Dreary Ol' Coot, so far I've only been casting single cavity molds using pressure casting. I don't think I could even do a two cavity mold without having to re-dip the ladle in between cavities. A bigger ladle is definitely in order 'cause I've got some 6 cavity molds. Well, Christmas is coming up and the wife and kids are always asking me what I want. Time to start making a wish list:

1. Rowell Bottom Pour Ladle, 1 pound size

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Gunboat,

I really understand that there are different ways our boats happen to float, but I sure like my Rowell bottom pour. I Must be getting close to 10 years or more with it.

I read one comment one time where someone felt they were too heavy, but I sure haven't seen that.

But then, I'm the Ol'Coot that uses the old Coleman gas stove, the big cast iron cooking pot - 40lbs+ - and likes to team cast with a partner, using 4 or 5 molds of 4 to 6 cavity going all at once.

Man we flat out make a big pile of cast boolits in short order.

The big pot and good heat source is needed to keep that much alloy melted and up to casting temp.

For the 45/70, I cast by myself as I desire a higher level of consistancy then with the handgun bullets, but with 4 cavities of 465gr each, the Rowell dipper works great.

CDOC

[I'll Make Mine]

Okay. I found a good enough photo of the Rowell ladles (http://www.theantimonyman.com/ladles.htm) to see what the difference is: Rowell ladles have a trough in the bottom of the dipper that feeds the spout, and the spout is shielded partway down on the inside. It works like a gravy skimmer; you pour the gravy from underneath the separated fat, or pour the metal from under the oxidized/dirty surface layer.

I can see where that would get a cleaner lead stream, and the #1 costs about the same as a Lyman casting ladle. If/when I outgrow my oversized, mangled soup spoon, I'll most likely go with a #1 Rowell myself. Can't work any worse than a Lyman, and there's a good likelihood it's genuinely better.

[sthwestvictoria]

gunboat,

First, I'd get away from the electric pot if at all possible, an old white gas or a modern gas Coleman gas stove works great. - check the classifieds and yard sales.




Due to my penurious circumstances I use just this sort of simple set up - propane bottle, single cast iron gas ring, cast iron pot from yard sale and Lyman type ladle with the side nipple. Even the Lyman ladle was a lucky yard sale find from a fisherman no longer making his own sinkers. Total expense - 1 bottle of wine and 12 eggs for the gas ring, $AUD3 for pot, gas bottle free with a decrepit BBQ and $AUD5 for ladle

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_2099350a8022ae9f25.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7487)

Other people have mentioned it is useful to have a single electric hot plate and I agree - great for pre-heating the mold blocks, ladle and even the ingots. Also great for melting down the pan-lube blocks without a flame.

Not shown in the picture but wired to the handle of a pot is a strip of aluminum. with "Lead Pb smelting only - no food" stamped into it. Hopefully if I ever die in harness or lose the pot this label will persist so it is never used for cooking.

[gunboat57]

I just realized, the #1 Rowell ladle is 2.25" diameter. The opening in my Lee Production Pot is just over 2.5" across. That means I'll just have to get a bigger furnace, maybe the Lee Magnum Melter Furnace. Holds 20 lbs. I like electric because there's no open flame.

The Christmas wish list keeps growing.

[cbrick]

Crusty is correct about the Rowell ladles but it seems strange to me that when we have a sponsor of this site selling them that another vendor (that is not a sponsor) is recommended.

Look at the banner ad at the top of this very page for . . . Roto Metals.

Or better yet, here is the link to Rowell Ladels at Roto Metals.

http://www.rotometals.com/Ladles-for-Casting-s/8.htm

Can't get any easier than that.

Rick

[montana_charlie]

Is there someplace I can see a video or step by step pictures showing the proper way to cast with a ladle? I'm especially interested in learning how it's done holding the spout of the dipper up against the mold sprue plate.
For casting those big ones, here is Rick Mulhern doing a few ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiJikigdIow

CM

[gunboat57]

Thanks for that link, montana charlie. That shows me exactly what I wanted to see. I'm doing what he does in that video, putting the spout to the sprue plate hole, and I end up with good boolits. I'm also trying using my ladle to just pour lead into the mold. If I keep my melt hot enough I'm starting to get good results that way too.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for that link, montana charlie. That shows me exactly what I wanted to see.
Pay attention to his cadence, too. Once the mould is at the right temperature, you cast at a pace that holds it at that temperature. He is dropping a bullet about every forty seconds (as I recall) ... and he lets the freshly poured bullet 'reach maturity' before cutting the sprue.

CM

[geargnasher]

I just recently was educated on the use of the large, true Rowell ladle and large open pot for casting top-quality boolits. I've done it before, and cast for years over a saucepan using a soup spoon with a spout bent in the side, but CDOC is absolutely correct in his assessment of the quality and speed of using a large enough ladle that can put VOLUME into the mould quickly without the high-pressure, fast-flowing stream that squirts out of a bottom pour pot.

Contact pouring is un-necessary if you get the technique of dumping a big dollop straight through the sprue hole sorted out. The big Rowell ladles are key to getting consistency out of multiple-cavity, smaller moulds too, like .30 caliber four or six cavity moulds. I was skeptical of this technique at first, but after being goaded enough I gave in and improved my casting consistency a bunch.

I still love and use my bottom-pour furnace for pistol boolits and short runs since I can use it inside without having to fire up Chernobyl to keep fifty pounds of lead at casting temperature.

One more thing to note, it's more difficult to cut the sprue by hand as Mulhern did in the video if you're using a harder alloy. I suspect he was using a mild lead/tin alloy for those boolits, or maybe pure lead. Wheel weights and richer require a good whack on the sprue plate when fully set, and letting the sprue cool that much is a sure recipe for a broken cam handle on a Lee six-cavity, so those who may be viewing this thread and not realize that keep it in mind.

Gear

[cbrick]

One more thing to note, it's more difficult to cut the sprue by hand as Mulhern did in the video if you're using a harder alloy. I suspect he was using a mild lead/tin alloy for those boolits, or maybe pure lead. Wheel weights and richer require a good whack on the sprue plate when fully set, and letting the sprue cool that much is a sure recipe for a broken cam handle on a Lee six-cavity, so those who may be viewing this thread and not realize that keep it in mind. Gear

Timing Gear, it's all in the timing. The sprue plate can easily be opened by hand when using WW alloy. Just like everything else in casting a little practice to get the timing right is all it takes. Wait a bit to long and you will be tapping it open and you know of course what happens if you open it too soon.

I ladle cast using either Rowell #1 or #2 depending on cavity/bullet size, use WW +2% Sn almost exclusively and it's rare I ever need to tap the sprue open. Only when something happens to interupt the casting rythm.

I too for many years refused to even try ladle casting. I had myself solidly convinced that it would be slow tedious & boring. A few years back I broke down & bought a rowell ladle & was amazed. Didn't take very long and I became almost exclusively a ladle caster. It's not slower simply because it's so much easier to get perfect boolits that the reject rate is so low the "keepers" pile up faster than bottom pouring.

I use the Magma 40 pound pot as my main pot but even with the RCBS 22 pounder there is no problem using the Rowell #2 ladle. What pot are you using that it doesn't fit in?

Rick

[gunboat57]

So far I've found it pretty easy to open the sprue plate once I've got everything up to temperature and get a rhythm. I've learned to make a big puddle of melt on the sprue plate to help the sprue cut off and drop away cleanly. I count to 5 after the puddle fogs over before opening the sprue plate. Oh yeah, I don't tap the sprue plate open. I use a home made extension handle that slips over the part on the sprue plate that sticks out and just firmly lever the sprue plate open. I figured that puts less wear on the plate pivot screw. I sometimes use a wooden mallet on the handle hinge bolt to jar boolits loose if they happen to stick to one half of the mold.