Hornet frustration with a capitol "F"

[roysha]

I have been working on getting a load for my CZ Hornet for a couple of years now. It is an on again/off again sort of project because the results are frustrating to say the least.

Basically the situation is this: I started with the a couple of Lyman bullets, neither of which worked at all. 3"-5" at 50 yards.

Got a Ranch Dog mold and cut the groups in half but no consistency. First group might be 1 1/2" then the next group will be either similar or 3" random or possibly the same size except with vertical or horizontal stringing or any combination of groups.

Here is what I have done.

Bullet. The above Ranch Dog cast just a bit softer than linotype. Lubed with Carnuba Red. HOR GC. Sized .225. Sorted by weight with a tolerance of .25 grain on either side of target weight. This results in a 60-65% rejection rate.

Powder. 2400 110 4227 and just recently 4759. All load changes were in increments of .2 grains and all weighed on an RCBS 10-10 scale.

Primer. WSR STD and WSP both STD and MAG used in a seemingly infinite combination with the above powders.

Case. WINCHESTER new bulk brass. Once fired. Trimmed to length so all cases the same.

Seating. OAL to fit CZ mag but have played with the seating depth, from engaging the rifling (single load only) to seating all grease grooves into neck of case. Light crimp and no crimp with each seating depth series of test rounds. Fed either single round or from magazine, if possible, for all series of loads.

Other. Use an IPCO .033 grease wad or not and makes no difference.

Read in PROPELLENT PROFILES that IMR 4759 was THE powder for cast bullets in the Hornet. Bought a can and although it seems to want to shoot better, actually had 1 group of just under 11/16" (5 shot for all test loads, 50 yards), the other 3 groups were 1"-1/4" with the exact same load.

All together I have fired over 400 rounds and have arrived at absolutely nowhere. This accuracy level is unacceptable to me. I know this little rifle is accurate because I have many groups well under1 inch at 100 yards (a couple right at 5/8") with jacketed bullets. And yes I squeaky cleaned the barrel before I started shooting lead and the bore is bright and shiny. No leading or build up of any kind that I can detect by pushing a snug patch down the bore.

Anyone have a "magic bullet" answer for me? Sure would appreciate it.

[HangFireW8]

What did the barrel slug out to?

HF

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

How fast are you trying to drive the boolits ?
I've been unsuccessful (accuracywise) pushing then over 1800fps.

I've had the best luck with Lil'Gun powder 6.0 to 7.0 gr.
with my .225 53gr. Lee Bator GCed boolit (lubed with Lotak),
it's moving about 1600 to 1700 FPS out of my Ruger #3 with open sites
on a good day I get under 2" at 50 yards.
on a bad day, well let's not talk of that...cause that's just the floaters in my eyes.
Jon

[.22-10-45]

Hello, roysha. You didn't say what alloy your using. Now alot pf people will disagree..but the targets don't lie..I have found alloy can be too hard..depends on what your looking for..accuracy or velocity. For pure accuracy, I am using steriotype metal diluted with soft lead.
One of the biggest improvements in consistancy and accuracy was when I made up a sizing die with inside taper to match throat or leade angle. 1st. band is tapered, and fully engraved by rifling when action closes. This has allowed me to duplicate best match jacketed bullet accuracy at 100yds.

[runfiverun]

i sort my 22's into same weight groups. 2.-.3-.4-.5
yep one cavity pours slightly heavier than the other.
i get a bunch of the middle weights where they overlap.

ditto the too hard alloy too,i cut group size substantially going from linotype down to 50-50 lino and pure with more tin added.

this next statement is gonna bring some rolled eyes and some that's rights and i don't wanna hear about it.
but what is your twist rate?
1-9?,1-12? if it's faster slow your loads down and look for the accuracy, then go to a slower powder and come back up.
you might end up with a case full of aa-2230 at 2200 fps as a stopping point, but with 1" groups to show for it.

[Bullshop]

Hornet barrels are hard to break in for cast. If the barrel starts out with a sharp and abrupt lead angle it takes a lot of shooting to ware the sharp edg off.
I had put a couple thousands rounds through a 22 Cooper and it still was not consistant with cast. What did the trick was having a reamer made with a 1degree lead angle and re cut the lead in my rifle. Thst did it!
If this is the case with your rifle you can tell by seating a cast boolit at
groove diameter or a bit over long enough in a case that when chambered you will get clearly visible engraving. Dont over do it as the boolit will pull from the case when extracted from the chamber. Chamber the round fully and extract it. Now look closely at the boolit where the engraving is. If at the very beginning of the engraving the boolit metal is being pushed back and is noticably raised larger than the boolit diameter you have a problem. The lead is too sharp and or abrupt.
Ther are a couple ways to deal with it and I mentioned one that I did. Not a cheap way but a sure way and it wont hurt the jacketed accuracy at all.
Another way is to shoot some high antimony low tin alloy boolits or fire lapp with lapping compound in the lube grooves of standard alloy boolits.
What we are trying to do here is take the sharp edge off so when the boolit enters the lead the lands are not shaving the boolit but allowing it to slide in to engraving. The engraving is or should be being pressed in the boolit not cut into it.
I have hand lapped the sharp edge off but its waaaayyy not my favorite way.
All rifles will naturaly correct this problem in time but the hornet uses so little powder at moderate pressure and uses bullets/boolits with such a short bearing surface it takes a loooooong time if just shooting the problem away.
Since more people shooting hornets have this problem than not it might be a good idea for CB members to pool rescorces and buy a throating reamer that could be passed about between members or rented for a modest fee to cover the cost.
Just an idea. I can use my Cooper reamer to do about any 22 cal chamber throat but I dont case to send it out for that job.
How about a CB owned 1 degree lead angle 22 cal throating reamer? Rent it out at $5.00 per use and it would pay for itself and be a darn good deal for everyone using it.

[Bullshop]

I just had another thought. Hard to believe I know.
Anyway what was I talking about??????? oh yea long ago I had a CZ Lux 22 hornet.
It shot cast good right away. But what I was thinking is that the Lux model I had had a 1/16" twist barrel.
You mentioned the Lyman boolits not doing well. Were they the 55gn boolits?
You also mention the Lee Bator doing much better. As I recall even though the Bator design was fairly heavy (for hornet) at about 50 to 52gn its profile is very short and was designed to be stable in a 1/16" twist.
The boolit that I used in My CZ and it shot very well was the NEI #2 at 45gn.
It was mentioned that you need to slow the velocity but if this is the case and you have a 1/16" twist and are or were shooting 55+ gn boolits what you would have to do is speed them up to have any hope for accuracy.
Best thing to do is try some 45gn boolits, or better yet some of the NOE 38gn boolits
Another thing I was thinking about is load data. Old data developed with old thin cases will give higher pressure than with newer thicker heavier cases.
A standby load for me was 8.5gn 4227 (either) with the NEI 45gn fngc or the Lyman 45gn rngc.

[fryboy]

i have to admit that i'm interested , i finally got my first hornet and am breaking it in with j-words , mine however is a K hornet , i've done lots of reading on it and two of the top powders seem to be lil gun ( which i havent tried yet ) and aa 1680 ( which is still in the fireforming stages ) and which the latest lyman suggest as an accurate powder for the hornet , worse the two molds i have perhaps may not be the best , a lyman 225-415 that cast @ 52-ish grains lubed and checked and a modern bond that looks like the same boolit but is a a-224525 and a couple grains lighter , according to r5r's post i may get extra duty of of my jugs of 2230 ( which i had about convinced myself that it and 2200 was a lil too slow for this pipsqueak )

[Bullshop]

Another powder you might add to the list that seems like it would be too slow but works just the same Alliant Reloader #7. Will work good with the over 50gn boolits and you cant over charge a case. I also like 4759 equally well.

[runfiverun]

for a ball type powder aa-2230 has been real versatile for me.
iv'e used it in the 25-20 with cast up through the 30-06 with jacketed, including the 357 max with 250 gr boolits.
it's great in the 30-30 too.
the only issue i have had with it was using a slightly over [jaxketed] max load with a bit heavier cast boolit and magnum primers on 100+ days.
no duuuh, right?

like Dan mentioned though.
if your bbl has the slower 22lr twist rate speeding things UP could do the trick.

[Larry Gibson]

As already mentioned, Hornet barrels come in a myrid of twist rates these days. I've 12, 14 and 16" twist Hornets and that alone makes a great difference in the cast bullet weight each will shoot well.

If the CZ does have a 16" twist and the cast bullets are 55 gr or heavier I would say tht is the problem. Some 50 gr cast will not shoot any better in my 16" twist barrel.

Larry Gibson

[stubshaft]

What size "M' die spud are you using?

[HARRYMPOPE]

I have had about 10 hornets and all were not easy to get shooting a variety of loads well. The Cz was the best but only the 35 v-max was sub moa reliably.I gave up and use Savage 1-12 22-250's for my hornet velocity stuff(jackets or cast) with much more versatility load wise.

[uscra112]

Primer for the Hornet should be the Remington #1 1/2 Small PISTOL. That tiny case does not like more powerful primers, especially with light loads.

[w30wcf]

roysha,
Sorry to hear of your Hornet troubles.....great advice given from our fellow enthusiasts.

I have 2 Hornet rifles...both 43 Winchesters. One is chambered for the "K" version.

Both the Lyman 225438 and NEI have worked very well for me. Initially, I had an issue with the lubrisizer sizing the bullets a bit off center (!) but once that was resolved, both rifles shot both bullets well.

One mold modification that I did was fitting new sprue plates with sprue holes that were 1/16" in diameter. The result of that modification was that almost 100% of the bullets were "match grade".... that is they were well filled out and the weight varied no more than .2 gr.:smile:

I preseated the Hornady gas checks and used a .225" sizing die. Bullets were made from w.w. + 2% tin and air cooled. Lube was the 50/50 NRA formula.

I found that using my standard Hornet load (11.5/680) the bullets would group as well as their jacketed counterparts or about 1.5 MOA. Other powders (4227, 4198RL-7 did well also.)

I attribute the fact that 12 bhn bullets grouped well with no leading at 2,600-2,700 f.p.s. was due to the lower sectional density of the 45 gr .225" bullets.

w30wcf

[Bullshop]

Just as w30wcf said about pre seating gas checks I got best results doing the same using the gas check seater attachment in an RCBS sizer.
In addition for best results I also pre size nose first, then seat checks, then lube.
More work but it did seem to help eliminate the wild flyers.
Also have to agree with others in that I never could get linotype boolits to shoot good in a hornet. Always got best grouping with an alloy of about BHN-15.
My alloy was 6/1 WW/monotype air cooled.