Some more noobie questions

[Jeremy Horn]

Again, I hope that i'm not posting this in the wrong forum. There are so many i'm not sure which fits my needs best.

I'm thinking of starting to cast for .223 and wanted to get some info and opinions on the subject. I'm not looking for super high end accuracy. I just like to plink with my friends. I have some AR500 targets that I use for pistol shooting and was wondering about the safty of shooting them with a rifle. I shot one a few times with factory ammo and it left little pits in it. Will lead do the same?

I'm also under the assumption that casting and reloading for rifles has a much bigger effect on the accuracy than it does for pistols.

Anyway, I would like to hear the experts opinions. Thanks guys.

[mpmarty]

Welcome. Jump right in you'll enjoy it for ever.

[Moonie]

Keep in mind that casting 22 size boolits and loading them in a 223 is not generally a beginner activity. Not to dissuade you as lots of us do it in here, I'm just letting you know that you have a hill to climb with this endeavor. Boolits this size are usually more difficult to cast than larger ones and getting everything just right for shooting accurately in a 223 can also be difficult.

We are more than happy to help you in this journey just be prepared for frustration before you reach nirvana.

[Jeremy Horn]

what has been your experience with shooting lead .223 at AR 500? Do you have any tips about casting or shooting for me?

here's another question for you. I use a Lyman 450 sizer Luber. I use a softer lube. is there any reason not to lube them and then store them? is there any concern that the lube will dry out before they actually get reloaded?

[Jeremy Horn]

yeah I kinda figured it would be difficult. can you give me some ideas of what difficulties I will run into?

[Jeremy Horn]

Would a 762x39 be any easier to start with?

[runfiverun]

most of us here [including myself] probably have no idea what an ar-500 target is.
it really shouldn't matter though, if you can shoot it with copper coated lead you can shoot it without the copper coating.

any way you can shoot lead in either your ar=15 or in your sks.
things might not go exactly how you expect right at the beginning.

[Moonie]

yeah I kinda figured it would be difficult. can you give me some ideas of what difficulties I will run into?

22 caliber boolits are very difficult to cast well, they have a higher reject rate and they are affected more by slight imperfections than larger boolits. Also you can have accuracy issues with higher velocities.

Basically anything that affects larger boolits/cartridges are amplified in a smaller high velocity cartridges.

[ShooterAZ]

AR 500 steel targets? Not armor plate, but "abrasion resistant". I shot some of my plates with 30-06 with cast boolits, and it severely put some divots in them. Much more so than jacketed M1 carbine loads. I was shooting them at 100 yards and glad I didn't try it at 50 as they might have penetrated.

[Bullet Caster]

Jeremy Horn,

I don't own an AR platform rifle so I cannot advise you on the ins and outs of casting for .223 caliber rifles. However, I do own an AK-47 and casting for it is relatively easy. I use the Lee .312 155 grain mould with a gas check. I use a Lee .311 sizing die to size and put on the gas checks. So far - so good. I sized some at .309 and they fall into the case so I'll probably use those in my .30-06 M1 Garand.

For 7.62x39 you can use a case full of IMR 4895 without any problems. That's the powder I use for the .30-06 and use it for 7.62x39 as well. It's probably not the best choice for 7.62x39 but I don't have any other powder. It's a relatively slow burning powder recommended for .30-06 applications especially for the M1 Garand.

I learned from this site that you cannot overcharge a 7.62x39 case with IMR 4895 since it is slow burning. I've tried the recommended 25 grains but it fills the case almost to the top, so I backed off on the charge a little to keep from compressing the charge when seating the boolit. Hope this will give you some insight to reloading for 7.62x39. Some other members will probably chime in for this application. Works for me. BC

[Jeremy Horn]

thanks for the info so far guys. I was posting from my phone earlier so I had to be kind of short. I'm home now so I can go into more detail.

Ar500 steel is whats most commonly used for steel targets (From what I understand. I could be wrong). I've been told that it is basically military grade armor plating. Any handgun I have hit it with does nothing. not even a scratch. It just leaves a little smudge where it hit. when I shot it with my ar15 from about 40 feet (hiding behind a tree) it left a little pit. Nothing huge but it definitely left a mark. I shot it with my AK and it didn't do anything noticeable. Is that, maybe, because the AK is going slower? Maybe, bigger round? I was thinking that if it's not jacketed it might not do as much damage to the target?

As far as casting goes, I'm pretty new to the whole thing. I've been casting for .45, .40 and 9mm so far. but not for long. I'm not familiar with gas checks and the like so I will need to be brought up to speed on that if anyone cares to fill me in.

thanks again guys.

[runfiverun]

spend some time reading around the sight.
you will see conflicting answers on some things neither is right or wrong.
it's just what worked for them.
we aren't all using the same alloy/mold/gun combination so things need fixin through different means.
for instance:
i am using ww's that have a nominal bhn of 14 with some tin added, the next guy's ww's have a bhn of 11.
i am pushing air cooled ww's to say 2100 fps in my pre 64 model 94 and he is using a marlin 336.
i could make some suggestions as to what my 30-30 likes,
but his is completly different, needing a 311 diameter and a 302 nose,mine does fine at 3015 and 310 my sizing won't help [my alloy is different, so is my twist rate and rifling] but my lube might make the difference if that's the problem.

stuff like seating gas checks and lube/sizing is pretty universal, even though there are 3-4 different systems of doing it.
you pretty much set the g/c on the base and run the boolit through the sizer it squeezes them into place simple as that.

[stubshaft]

Cast boolits can damage AR-500. The thing that defeats steel plate is velocity, not the hardness of the boolit. That being said, there will be minimal damage if velocities are kept below 2K. I have shot sillywett for over 35 years and the club I shoot at have just (2 weeks ago) gotten new 1/2 scale targets made out of AR-500.

[rmatchell]

I would agree with stubshaft and say there shouldn't be a problem with the ar500 target as long as load is kept there won't be much lead left to recover though. I am also wanting to get into casting for my Ar's.

[Lizard333]

At close range, a 223 jacketed round will go right through. Makes a nice hole. Don't ask how I found out

Keep your target a hundred yards out and you'll be fine.

Casting for the 223 isn't what I would call easy but it can be done. Keep your mold in a constant cadence and worry about what your boolits look like at the end.

Slug your barrels and go a thousandth or two over.

Good luck!!

[Jeremy Horn]

I assumed that the speed was the issue with the .223

Now for the really dumb questions.
What is the average speed for .223? I don't really get into trying tweak the performance of my bullets. I just want it to go the direction I point it and to get there for as cheap as possible. I use a middle of the road charge of powder. As soon as I get something that works, I stick with it.

I will be getting my mold from Tom at Accurate Molds. I live in SLC and one of my buddies shoots regularly with Tom. Anyone use a .223 mold from accurate? Any tips?

Are gas checks mandatory for rifles? Is a gas check basically a copper cup on the base of the bullet used to give it some uniformity?

Sorry for being so ignorant. Thanks for being patient. :)

[rmatchell]

I always use gas checks in my riffles, but thats just me. I'm sure it all depends on your load but im not an expert. The gas check protects the boolit base and reduce gas cutting. I have had a hard time picking a mold for .223 because of the seating depth. Does anybody have a preference or thoughts on molds for the .223.

[runfiverun]

i use the rcbs 0-55-sp in my ar's.
it took me some work to get the 9 twist bbl's shooting under 2"s at 100 yds at velocity [2700 ish] and function.
i got real lucky as they shoot the same load as my ruger varmint 223 really likes, good nuff.

noe makes a nice 60 gr version,and there was a nato boolit designed here not too long ago that would work well also.

[Linstrum]

I don't think that an average speed for a .223 Remington can be quoted because it just depends on who is loading it. That is from everybody having different parameters because cast or extruded lead alloy boolits are so extremely sensitive to powder type and load, lubrication, and barrel bore condition. Standard commercial copper jacketed .223 Remington loads run around 3100 to maybe 3300 feet per second depending on barrel length, but lead boolits quite often start to have trouble at around ~ 2000 to 2100 feet per second (some of us refer to copper jacketed bullets as "J-word" bullets, condom bullets, full length gas check bullets, and Red Coats. Also, the word "boolit" is NEVER used to describe commercially manufactured copper jacketed bullets). The troubles are from barrel leading, in-flight disintegration from centrifugal force and frontal air pressure tearing the boolit to pieces, and melting of the boolit base even when a gas check is used. Now, that more-or-less 2000 feet per second speed is not chiseled in stone, and with the correct powder, lubrication, high strength boolit alloy, barrel rate of twist, and caliber, it is very reasonable to get around the same 2700-2800 feet per second as a lot of Red Coat factory loads. The one powder that may, and I emphasize "MAY", be best for getting high velocity with cast boolits is a special but dangerously temperamental triple-base powder called IMR7383 that was developed specifically for the little .50 caliber spotter round used for aiming the 106mm recoilless rifle. IMR7383 has to be used with a great deal of caution because it is well-known for blowing up guns since it does not show any dangerous high pressure signs until it blows up your rifle - your first warning sign IS pressure damage. The reason why it is good for high velocity is because it burns so cool that it is flashless. Burning "cold" is not its purpose, though, but being flashless is directly related to that because during wartime it prevents the enemy from seeing where the gun is that is shooting at them.

rl 1,149

[Moonie]

I assumed that the speed was the issue with the .223

Now for the really dumb questions.
What is the average speed for .223? I don't really get into trying tweak the performance of my bullets. I just want it to go the direction I point it and to get there for as cheap as possible. I use a middle of the road charge of powder. As soon as I get something that works, I stick with it.

I will be getting my mold from Tom at Accurate Molds. I live in SLC and one of my buddies shoots regularly with Tom. Anyone use a .223 mold from accurate? Any tips?

Are gas checks mandatory for rifles? Is a gas check basically a copper cup on the base of the bullet used to give it some uniformity?

Sorry for being so ignorant. Thanks for being patient. :)

Tom over at Accurate doesn't make any molds smaller than 30 caliber.

I would suggest either the MP NATO mold or the NOE 221 clone (the one I have). The Lee Bator mold may work depending on the cast size, mine will not work as it was far out of spec and I gave up on it.

[mpmarty]

Funny, messin' around with my 30/284 rifle I dumped 7.0gr of 700X into a primed case and seated a 155gr cast boolit in it. Shot clean through a 1/2" AR500 plate at 50 yards and blew a half inch hole in it with cratering on the near side.