Frustration...lack of concentricity

[Calpoly93]

OK, I am fairly new to casting, teaching myself as I go, reading everything I can. This, however, has me a little frustrated. I love the profile of the Lee TC 230 grain, BUT look how it sizes in my RCBS lubrisizer with LBT Soft. The lube at the base is one thing, but the total non-concentric sizing is the "biggy"....
What am I doing wrong to create these malformed, a-round-ball-shoved-in-would-be-better things?

[stubshaft]

If your nose punch fits reasonably well then I would say that you have a lousy mold. Sometime sizing a boolit reveals just how bad it is.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, Calpolu93. Have you tried nose-first sizing? Use either an undersized flat-faced nose punch...one that will enter die..or use wood or brass rod to push thru..or..if you have a drill press, chuck up a flat faced rod & use this to push bullet nose-first thru..turning die 180deg. when bullet is about 1/2 way thru to keep things evened up. If bullet comes out sized concentric..your mould is fine..but your lube-sizer top punch is out of alignment with sizer die mouth..not an uncommon problem!
A fix is to file notch on top punch shank..too positively locate when removed, start a bullet straight in sizer die..nose up..Use one of your nose-first sized ones for this.
Coat bullet nose with paste wax, for release agent. Fill nose-punch cavity with two-part epoxy & lower onto bullet nose & let harden.
Now that particular punch & die will be aligned.
Or, as I do, just use flat-faced nose-punches..these let bullet "slide" a bit letting it self-align.

[geargnasher]

Bad castings. The mould halves weren't aligning vertically, which is common with the Lee two-cavity moulds, and this creates uneven boolits. You can tell it's mould alignment by the sized difference on either side of the part line.

Get yourself some Bullplate Sprue Plate Lube from member Bullshop or some Zip Lube from member Randyrat and review the sticky thread in the mould sub-forum on how to apply it to the alignment points to help the mould blocks close completely and firmly. Also, give the mould a good check over to make sure there aren't any lead specs or burrs causing it to not close, some of those boolits look like they are fatter than others, a sign of inconsistent block closure.

Gear

[popper]

Lee mould. Could be ertical alignment as Gear says or non-concentric mould. Will it make a difference in shooting - probably not. It looks like a lot but it may only be .001 off, within most mould specs. Bad bases will be much worse.

[runfiverun]

it could be the sizer die too.
lymans quality has been slipping lately,i have heard of a few of thier sizing dies being .003 out of round.
the taper could be off or it could be an older stepped die they were pretty good at doing the one side sheared when a bunch of thousandths were sized off thing.

you got some measuring to do.

[OnHoPr]

How are you cutting your sprue? If you are using a welding glove and hand type of sprue cutting method you could be twisting the mold while cutting the sprue when it is at those temps. If you are using a mallet method check to make sure your are hitting the sprue plate near right angle to the blocks. IF it is a harder alloy and/or might have some zinc in your alloy, that might increase the problem. Though the previous post have merit as well.

[williamwaco]

I don't think this is the cause here but that effect can also be caused by "slamming" the handle of the sizer.

Assuming the nose punch fits, bullets ( should ) self align in the die when you press them in .

Alignment however takes time. If you are operating the sizer too fast, some of the bullets will not have time to properly align and can go through the die quite crooked.


.

[Wolfer]

Ill bet those shoot just fine. My most accurate mold for my most accurate handgun throws boolits that are .007 out of round. I don't send it back because like I said its my most accurate mold, sized or unsized.

[Fluxed]

Shoot them and see. This may be a largely cosmetic defect. The contour of this bullet is such that it will show every tiny imperfection. You may be surprised that they shoot fine.

[Bullshop]

You might be surprised at how much nose first sizing may help this. I have many times used the same mold and have the same problem and nose first sizing will greatly reduce the amount of deformation.
If you are using an RCBS sizer or even a Lyman for that matter you can convert it to nose first sizing in about two minutes. You cant lube this way but you can pre size nose first then re set the press to size/lube and then lube them base first and end up with a much better job done.
You can set up for nose first sizing by first removing the sizer die. Then with the die out push the ejector punch up and take it out then reinstal the die. Next unscrew the depth adjuster and take it out as well. Now with about any top punch that is smaller in diameter than the bullet base you are ready for nose first sizing. It is better if you have a flat blank top punch but it does not have to be. The first boolit will not push all the way through. The next should push it through and be sure to remember to catch the boolit as it drops out.
Pre sizing this way is very fast and adds very little extra time to the process. Just ask anybody that uses a Star sizer.
After the nose first pre sizing put the press back together and lube as normal. Your finished boolits will be far more concentric I promice!

[x101airborne]

Bullshop.
Thank you. I never thought of that. I know I am not the OP, but none the less, that is a solution that I never considered.
Thanks!

[Calpoly93]

Thanks for all the quick responses guys!

So since coming back online, I tried some of Recluse's concoction, and used the Lee sizer, - that method showed much less deformation on my bullets. Apparently they "self center" better going nose first.

I am now wondering if I can "nose size" with the Lee, and then lube with my RCBS lubrisizer....

I will have to give that a try tomorrow morning!

[MT Chambers]

I've not seen this when using the right top punch, esp. on a short bullet such as this, some of the suggestions will be alot more work for you, I'd get the proper nose punch and float it.

[geargnasher]

Thanks for all the quick responses guys!

So since coming back online, I tried some of Recluse's concoction, and used the Lee sizer, - that method showed much less deformation on my bullets. Apparently they "self center" better going nose first.

I am now wondering if I can "nose size" with the Lee, and then lube with my RCBS lubrisizer....

I will have to give that a try tomorrow morning!

Lots of us do that, particularly with rifle boolits that tend to get bent when actually sizing them in the base-first outfits that all seem to have the gawdawfully wobbly rams. That takes the load off of the sizer, and it can just be used for lubing.

Remember that antimonial alloys take some time to reach full hardness, if you're sizing them within a day or two of casting they will be soft and the noses easily mashed.

Who ever came up with the Lyman 450/4500 and RCBS lube sizer design needs to be hit over the head with one of their units, HARD. The lateral force and inevitable ram wear/misalignment that results from the poor compound leverage design wouldn't pass a senior project in mechanical engineering school for sure. That's why I use push-throughs and the old Lyman 45s.

Gear

[whisler]

I have a Lyman .358 sizer die in Lyman 450 that was causing the same effect on 358125RF and 358105SWC boolits. Sizing nose first with the Lee sizer and then lubing in the Lyman 450 fixed my problem as well.

[captaint]

Actually, the nose first thing is why I bought a Star in the first place. Sizing base first just didn't make sense. Still doesn't... enjoy Mike

[Calpoly93]

OK, so I took a couple of hundred bullets from the same batch (and yes, they are antimonial lead, with some added tin, born just a few days ago) and sized them "dry" with a .452" Lee sizer in my RCBS press, and voila! No "ugliness"! They all came out concentric, and even. Then I put the in the Lubrisizer and they look perfect... You guys were absolutely right.

I'll plan on doing that two-stage lubri-then-sizing from now on. Or, just using the Recluse mix.

I will try to post some pictures tomorrow.

Thanks for the information!

[Calpoly93]

That seems to be the wasy to do it - Lee sizer, then the RCBS Lubrisizer... Here is what the Lee sizer die does...

[MikeS]

While nose first sizing does tend to size them more concentric, also when using Lee 2 cavity moulds it's important that you make sure when you close the mould that the 2 blocks are mating correctly. If you look at the second picture you posted originally, you will see where the uneven sizing is right on the parting line. On that particular casting the blocks weren't mated properly which made the boolit look that way. One thing I find helps with Lee 2 cavity moulds is to remove them from their handles, then on the handles gently tap on the metal that's standing up right by the pin hole to make the pins more of a press fit into the handles, rather than just slipping right thru. Then when you reassemble the moulds, you will need to tap in the pins, then use a pin punch to set them in slightly below the bottom of the blocks. Now when you open and close the mould the blocks should mate better. I've done this to about 4 different moulds and at least for me it helps, YMMV as always.

[Bullet Caster]

This is the very reason I only use Lee sizers. I'm just too cheap (lacking funds) to buy a lubrisizer machine. I don't load thousands of rounds at a time and my Lee sizers do a really good job. Sometimes simple is better, you know KISS.

As long as the base is good I don't worry about how the boolit looks. They still shoot without any leading. If I were a high volume shooter, I'd probably have to save for a lubrisizer. BC

[geargnasher]

That seems to be the wasy to do it - Lee sizer, then the RCBS Lubrisizer... Here is what the Lee sizer die does...

Excellent! Glad you got it worked out. You might consider trying a little dry Teflon spray lube, or even a little soap to help them through the Lee sizer.

Gear

[popper]

I would use WD40 before teflon or soap - rusting is a problem.

[Smous]

Hi Fellow Reloaders
I'm from South Africa and would like to get my hands on some Bull Plate Lube. I got 3 small vials with molds that I ordered from NOE. Pls help

[billw]

They look over sized if bullet diameter is excessive for the lube die diameter. I used .451 and now .452 and .453. Shoot them with lightest load will cycle 1911 action, about 3.5 gr Bullseye, assuming 1911. Clean bore often until you get a cleaner old. I have 5 recoil springs from 18# down, lightest is for Colt 22RF conversion.

[6bg6ga]

Its just amazing that those experiencing sizing problems tend to hold on to their anequated sizing equipment and then whine that they don't have the money to buy a good sizer. I started out years ago with an 450 sizer and even when new it did a questionable job. I absolutely hated sizing bullets because the cycle of putting it in the die taking it to the bottom of the stroke and then bringing the bullet back to the top of the die to remove it simply wasn't effective in terms of time and quality of the finished product. Sizing base first requires the bullet to be flat in order to maintain proper alignment and what I have seen in the pictures seems to indicate the bullet isn't properly aligned.

My suggestion is this....cut down on the beer or hard stuff and stuff away $20 a week toward the new Magma or Ballisti-cast sizer and you will have something that will properly size your bullets nose down and cut your sizing time to a minimum. A Ballisti-cast sizer WILL size bullets that are .005 oversize without ANY problems.

I have both Ballisti-cast and Magma sizers and after I got over the sticker shock have not looked back.

[billw]

Can't spell. "old" should have been "bore." I started out not sizing, pan lubing, then with a Lyman 45, then RCBS, Lyman 450 and now Star, nose first but did the same for a short time nose first with the others, ended up with taper dies to seat gas checks and chamber fitting, then base first to lube in one of the first 3, don't have Star set up yet, waiting on opening the dies to fit my guns.

The Lee system with LLA diluted is slower for drying times but is my recommendation for new guys and I ought to have one. In 52 years I collected, rather accumulated a lot of equipment, most unused, too much catalog looking.

[tek4260]

Roll your boolits on a case lube pad before running them thru the Lee. Otherwise you can lead the sizer die.