Blackfooted Ferrets Discovered in SD

[bowfin]

123456

[starmac]

Cattle. Prarie dogs can and do ruin a lot of country.

[Bad Water Bill]

those ferrets do love a daily plate full of nice warm P dogs. M M good.

[Bob Krack]

Bad news: The Indians want to poison the prairie dog towns...again. Now, I am all for people running their own property, but who do you think that land would be worth a LOT more with prairie dogs and blackfooted ferrets, or cattle?
Why would what I think have anything at all to do with someone sovereign doing something with their property - that has no real effect on me or mine?:confused: No flames intended, just truly confused.

Bob

[Houndog]

This is probably just another attempt to find something to close down Pararie Dog hunting on the Indian reservation near Piere SD. The enviro whaco/PETA types have been trying to get this done for years, even to the point of trying to get Pararie Dogs put on the endangered species list! On my last trip out there I shot over 1,000 rounds a day at those critters! It would be nice if they would declare open season on the eviro-idiots and let the Indians take care of the reservation. They know more about what needs done than some tree hugger.

[btroj]

What's done is none of my business.

Yes, people who enjoy shooting prairie dogs getup set when they are poisoned. So what. If the land owner wants to manage his property for cattle rather than prairie dog shooters then so be it.

[Bad Water Bill]

IIRC you need to get a license from the TRIBE to hunt the reservation and then only with a hired tribal guide.

Now look at the motel and meal monies to be made by the tribe.

Someone has to be offering those college educated leaders a lot of money.

[bowfin]

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[bowfin]

123456

[btroj]

Sounds to me like the Indians need to learn to manage the land for better financial stability.

Again, that isn't my concern. I am not a native American, I don't live on the reservation. Of the reservation is dumb enough to let a few ranchers manipulate them then they deserve what they get.

Poor land management isn't a new problem.

As for the idea that the state own the animals on the land, not the land owner to an extent that is true. My problem is that the government likes to dictate to landowners what they can and can't do on their property even if it means loss of income or use of the land.

To a certain extent, I really don't care. I don't shoot prairie dogs. Never have seen a black footed ferret. Probably never will. I don't see myself losing much sleep over this.

[bowfin]

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[pdawg_shooter]

I am a dedicated prairie dog shooter, as my name implies, BUT I shoot them on other peoples land. If the land owner decides to poison them, it is his right, and I will live with it. I will NOT, however pay for the privilege to do so. He may own the land but he does not own the dogs. IMHO. I will not pay a land owner to hunt anything. If he has a problem with damage I will be glad to help him out, but I will not pay to do so. As you can see, this is a sore spot for me.

[Olevern]

Sounds like the wild hog situation in Texas. You hear all the ranchers cry about the damage, but when you offer to help them out by shooting them all of a sudden those hogs are worth $250.00 to $500.00 apiece. Not too sympathetic anymore hearing the "woe is me" cries from landowners.

To you who are Texas landowners and/or leasees of same, no intent to defame and you may not fit this description, but in my experience, many do.

[41 mag fan]

Native Americans make plenty of money off the federal gov't every month, plus alot of the tribes have over the last couple of decades, turned the tables, from being a poor poverished people to being multi millionaires by owning casinos.
Just a couple I know off hand is the seminoles in Florida, the Ojibwas of N Minnesota, esp around Mille Lacs and the tribe down by the twin cities.
When they live in a junky trailer, but have corvettes and cadillacs sitting in weeds because they wanted a new vehicle, thats alot of money.
Leaving the land as is, if they are a rich tribe, should be something they'd want to do, since their heritage was to live off the land and respect the land, before the white man came onto it and started destroying it centuries ago.

if they found an endangered specie, then the federal gov't needs to step in and ensure the ferrets survival. Or capture and relocate before they poison the land.

[gkainz]

Apparently a lot of you have never set eyes on the Pine Ridge or Rosebud reservations nor are familiar with the demographics of South Dakota.

The land is so tough that it takes a hundred acres to graze a cow and calf (ok maybe that's stretching the truth just a little) and if every resident of SD went to a casino it probably wouldn't net enough to pay the light bill for the weekend.
Greg - former Sou'Dakotan

[waksupi]

Cattle. The ferrets were most likely transplanted there. They found out when they tried the same experiment here, the ferrets are too stupid to survive. The predators get them in short order. I don't know what kind of environment the ferrets originally existed in, but it must have been a real la-la land, with plenty of vermin for the predators. I think they would do better in colonies of Richardson's ground squirrels.

[bowfin]

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[runfiverun]

here is a thought.
now that they have found the ferrets they ain't doing either one.
the ferrets are on the "LIST".
this puts the dog town's out of reach for either cattle or killing the p-dog's.

[bowfin]

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[starmac]

It doesn't just boil down to where the prairei dog town is. If not checked it will continue to grow ruining more land and they don''t care where the boundaries are.

I have a lot more problem with the govt paying more than the land is worth to save a ferret.
I have a bigger problem with the federal govt telling anybody what they can or can't do with their land because of a, animal.

If the black footed ferret is going to go extinct, like many species and subspecies before it, there is nothing mankind can do about it. it is what it is, just part of evolution.

[bowfin]

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[starmac]

That could depend on the part of the country, in the short grass country even the crp land that has not had a cow, or buffalo on it, the grass does not get over a foot high. Any prarie dog town I've been around has a circle around every mound that has no vegetation, when those circles reaches to the neighbors circle they are forced to move out to eat. Maybe the NM praire dogs just eat more than them up north.

[Bad Water Bill]

If the black footed ferret is going to go extinct, like many species and subspecies before it, there is nothing mankind can do about it. it is what it is, just part of evolution.

Just look at the BILLIONS spent to save a vulture that should have gone extinct many years ago. Not to mention the restrictions put on hunters to keep about 100 of the birds from possibly finding and eating the bullet that killed another animal.

[waksupi]

OP asks for opinions, then argues about them. I'm betting the Sioux make some nice tobacco bags.

By the way, they aren't going to make big tourist bucks off of this. Rosebud and Pine Ridge aren't exactly tourist type destinations.

[felix]

The major foreigner's attraction in Fort Smith is not the hangman's court, but the ***** house down the tracks a thousand yards or less. About half of the registered visitors are from the Orient. ... felix

[MT Gianni]

Okay, I need you guys to THINK instead of giving a knee jerk reaction...really...

The Indians own the land. Land that contains blackfooted ferrets now is worth MILLIONS of dollars when the Indians sell the conservation easement to the Feds or to some big conservation or wildlife organization.

As a member of the probable buying org. [US Citizen] I would be against overpaying for land from another nation. If the ferrets got there naturally they should not be considered as endangered, therefore there should be no premium price paid for ground sold. This just tells me too many fools think things are endangered when they are probably not.

[Houndog]

Unlike many on this thread I have absolutely no problem paying for the privelege to hunt! On my trip to Rosebud I bought a tribal hunting license and hired a guide. In return I got room and board, and a guide that put us on GOOD dog towns already cleared to be hunted by the landowner. I call that paying for services rendered, nothing more or less. I'm SURE I could have found places to shoot on my own, but being the landowners didn't know me how successful would I have been getting permission to hunt on his property? If you are going to an area to hunt and spending some fairly big $$$ on the trip while having a limited time to hunt doesn't it make sense to pay a guide or a landowner to make your trip as successful as you can?

As far as using hunting or poisoining to control the dogs, it should be up to the land owner AND NO ONE ELSE!!!! I've had a similar situation happen to me where the enviro whacos hire a GOOD hunter, or in my case a botanast, to "find" an endangered animal or plant on a person's property and then use the endangered species act and the courts to force whatever they want to happen on the land owner. In my case, spraying my pasture field with 2-4-D "cured" my problem. As far as "overgrazing"goes, I'll ask only one question. If YOU were in the cattle business why would you try to graze more cattle on a piece of property than it would support? The fact is if you try to sell sick, malnourished livestock you WILL loose money BIG TIME!!!! Buyers simply won't buy them.

FWIW: I own a farm and wouldn't even think of charging someone to hunt on it! I only ask folks to let me know they are hunting on me, don't shoot at my livestock, don't tear down the fences and take your trash home with you. So far it's working out fairly well.

[btroj]

I fail to see how the ferrets are worth billions. Who is paying to go see them?

What I DO see happening is that a land owner will be told that he can't run cattle there, can't poison the dogs, can shoot the dogs, can't do anything. He will be told he can't do a dang things with his land because the ferrets are there.

Yep, sure sounds like a great deal for a land owner.

[Moondawg]

The major foreigner's attraction in Fort Smith is not the hangman's court, but the ***** house down the tracks a thousand yards or less. About half of the registered visitors are from the Orient. ... felix

Is this ***** house a new addition to Fr. Smith? I spend quite a bit of time at Ft. Chaffe during the late 70s and early 80s, but never heard of a ***** house. Ft. Smith is a really nice town with, with super folks and located in a beautiful part of the county. I thought about retiring there by my wife wanted Texas, so that is were we landed.

[felix]

http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=1183

... felix

[M-Tecs]

Money talks. Live ferrets are worth more than live cattle to the landowners. They won't need the middlemen any more, but my guess is that they really didn't need them before, it's easier to take a little bit of money than have to manage your own land for more money. Probably end up having the guy who found them hired to collect money from the Feds and conservation groups to run ferrets on the land rather than cattle.

We won't go into the whole other can of worms about being good stewards with what the Lord provided...

A live ferret may be worth more than the cattle but how does the land owner make a profit from it? He can’t sell the ferrets so where is the money coming from?

[bowfin]

123456

[M-Tecs]

Prairie Dogs "ruining land" is one of those urban legends, mostly told by ranchers who want to ruin their own land by overgrazing. Go up to Teddy Roosevelt National Park and see for yourself, don't take ANYBODY else's word for it. They have prairie dogs there...and buffalo...and grass higher than any of the pastures where prairied dogs are "controlled"...but not cattle grazing. Prairie dogs are blamed when they eat the last 1% of the grass left by overgrazing. I can show you a lot of bad pastures that look like moonscapes here in Nebraska that haven't had prairie dogs within a hundred miles for a hundred years.

My opinions are formed from ancestors who ranched in the Sandhills of Nebraska. They pastured their land like they wanted it to grow grass next year. They had prairie dogs on some of it.

I was born and raised 60 miles from Teddy Roosevelt National Park and I still go through two or three times a year. I am not seeing what you are seeing. Prairie dogs, Buffalo and Cattle will all overgraze land if allowed to. Profitability of grazing land is based on carrying capacity of the land. I have rancher friends that have land with and without prairie dogs. On the land without prairie dogs they can run significantly more cattle or buffalo without overgrazing. My childhood best friend has 600 buffalo and yes they will overgraze if allowed to.

One of my rancher friends that is also an avid prairie dog shooter planted some on his land about fifteen years ago. He thought he could control them with shooting. It was the best town I had ever shot but even with heavy shooting it grew fifty acres a year to about 900 acres before he poisoned them all. He never told me what he thought the prairie dogs cost him but he did state planting prairie dogs was the worst decision that he had ever made and it almost bankrupt him. What I did see with my own eyes it that when the town was 900 acres the land didn’t have much grass for grazing and he didn’t have very many cattle on it. Since the prairie dogs are gone I see lots of grass and lots of cattle.

One study points to the fact that the grass in a prairie dog town has higher nutritional value. I believe this to be true since what grass is they is moist and green. The problem is that there is very little of it and when late summer and fall come around there is none left yet the land without prairie dogs still has a lot of graze available.

[M-Tecs]

"It's funny that there used to be enough grass to feed millions of buffalo, elk, antelope, and prairie dogs indefinitely with no problems.



Seriously though, it prairie dogs keep spreading if they aren't poisoned, why didn't they denude the entire Great Plains and starve out every other grazing animals and themselves hundreds of years before there were cattle and ranchers?


The problem is the type of usage the land is subjected to. Before fences the buffalo and antelope migrated. Today’s buffalo and cattle don’t migrate. The land that they are on needs to sustain them year around and in much higher number than hundreds of years ago. Today there are 98 million cattle in the US. Up until recently it was thought the buffalo herds were 60 million but based on carrying capacity that has been lowered to 30 million.

[pmer]

Like Houndog, I went out to Rosebud tribal land for dog shooting this year too. You can also hunt big game and Buffalo. Ecomonically, it looked like a different world to me.

Our guide took us out to good dog shooting everyday. I don't see how a couple ferrets can change all of the land they have there. They have thousands and thousands of acres. Do the bunny huggers have that much $$ on tap? They couldn't stop the Minnesota wolf hunt this year.

Would a tribe sell their control of a land to the highest bidder through easements. I doubt they would sell it all.

[runfiverun]

ummm you ain't buying a conservation anything on a reservation.
the tribe owns the land.
you deal with the tribal council, you ,me the cows and the ferrets will all be dead long before you get a decision from them.
i don't think you could buy tribal land if you wanted to, had the money, and they wanted to sell it.
maybe lease it for a period of time for the price of the national debt,but buy it?
i don't think so.
and an easement? no,,,, not gonna happen.

[Bad Water Bill]

When white man first came to the great plaines there were MANY predators that would feed on P Dogs. All kinds of birds of prey.foxes,coyotes,ferrets and snakes to keep the P Dogs in check.

Also what would happen to a P Dog town when a stampeding herd of bison trampled over it?

[waksupi]

As soon as you have anyone connected to the government start "studying" something, the people on the land are screwed. Happened with wolves, spotted owls, wolverine is next on the list. I've also see the conservation easement thing. After a few years, someone connected to them, just happens to end up building a really nice house on the property. If the Sioux are smart, they will go out and poison all the ferrets, before the greenies get into it too deep.

[Mooseman]

They should catch them ferrets and turn em loose IN Washington, DC or maybe Chicago!!! LOL

[Bad Water Bill]

Right now they should put them in the sewers of New York as they seem to have a very large rat problem after the storm.

OOPS sorry they are NON UNION ferrets so they will be sent back home.:groner:

[pmer]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=black+footed+ferret&view=detail&id=738FF4423ADB2834FC60BACA84970F27C72D1126&first=1

Here is an image of a Black Footed Ferret.

On our last day we were behind a ranchers barn and in both his cow yards (not pastures) it was fence to fence prairie dogs. For some reason he let it go and the dogs were out of control. We shot and shot but couldn't get them all because some would go in their dens and get missed. And they would stay to repopulate the town.

All those mounds and holes would be tough on the cattle. If it was mine I think I would have poisoned and bladed it flat and then reseed.

[btroj]

Face it, not many of us are about ferrets, no matter what color the feet.

I don't care about prairie dogs either. Shoot, don't shoot. Poison them, don't poison them.

What I do care aout is property rights. Every little bit of ground we give up is another nail in the coffin. For a Tea Party guy I am surprised you don't see that.

[Bob Krack]

Bowfin,
I guess I just do NOT understand your question. If I understand correctly, you or someone you know was hired by the INDIANS to do a study of prarie dogs and/or ferret and/or grazing cattle on the same INDIAN'S land?

If a recommendation was made to the INDIANS, what is the question? Is it "what should the INDIANS do?", "what would you/I/or joe blow do?" or is it ""how can I/we convince the INDIANS to accept our recommendation?" or?

I saw absolutely NO reference to the "environmental" merits of the issue in the original post.

All I saw, perhaps wrongly so, was a complaint that the INDIANS were not of the same mind as you or your acquaintances. If that is the case, my response is "SO WHAT?" INDIAN usage of INDIAN land is not my business and I don't really think I have a right to say that I agree or disagree.

As i said in my first and only other post, I intend no flames by my words, I am truly confused by what you say and not knowing what you are asking.

Bob

[M-Tecs]

I didn't think there were so many who thought conservation and the hunting/shooting sports were inherently adversarial as I have seen on this thread.


I would love to see the return of large prairie dog towns with a lot of blackfooted ferrets. I don’t see that conservation and the hunting/shooting sports are inherently adversarial. I do see disagreement with your conclusions.

You asked “do you think that land would be worth a LOT more with prairie dogs and blackfooted ferrets, or cattle?” All stated cattle. Than you stated that “Land that contains blackfooted ferrets now is worth MILLIONS of dollars when the Indians sell the conservation easement to the Feds or to some big conservation or wildlife organization.” Most don’t agree to the value or that the Indians would sell a conservation easement to the Feds or to some big conservation or wildlife organization.

You also stated that there are “a few dozen left” It’s more like 750 to 1000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-footed_ferret & http://www.defenders.org/black-footed-ferret/basic-facts

Next you stated “Prairie Dogs (ruining land) is one of those urban legends, mostly told by ranchers who want to ruin their own land by overgrazing.” I strongly disagree.

I hope that you are correct that “there are many conservation and wildlife organizations that would chip into buy a conservation easement on the land. It is done frequently here in Nebraska by the Game & Parks Commission and Ducks Unlimited.” Unlike Ducks Unlimited I don’t see were the money to purchase these conservation easement is coming from. If the money does come it mostly likely will be from preservationist groups and not conservation groups.

Per http://www.defenders.org/black-footed-ferret/basic-facts A healthy population of black-footed ferrets requires very large prairie dog colonies. Scientists estimate that more than 10,000 acres of prairie dog colonies are required, and results from the various reintroduction sites show that it may actually take more than 20,000 acres. If the land still could be used for hunting that would be awesome but like most I believe that if money comes it will be from a preservationist groups that will close it to all uses.

Like most here I fully support all conservation efforts but I also oppose all preservationist efforts.

[btroj]

Yep, Ducks Unlimited promoted watershed restoration because they wanted to shoot the ducks.

The black footed ferrets are not going to I prove the quality of shooting opportunities, they will destroy them. The greenies will pay tons to keep people from shooting dogs there.

Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

[atom73]

I live in SD and have dealt with the tribes here. River is right when he says nothing will happen anytime soon, tribal councils are notoriously inefficient, corrupt, and SLOW. The tribes have p.enty of money, they just put a bid to buy Reynolds prairie out in the black hills so it really isn't a question of money, they have enough. What is most likely going to happen is nothing, the status quo will be maintained because that is what is easiest for the tribe to decide.

[jmsj]

Cattle. The ferrets were most likely transplanted there. They found out when they tried the same experiment here, the ferrets are too stupid to survive. The predators get them in short order. I don't know what kind of environment the ferrets originally existed in, but it must have been a real la-la land, with plenty of vermin for the predators. I think they would do better in colonies of Richardson's ground squirrels.

I have to agree with waksupi. An ultra ultra rich landowner in our area had this pie in the sky theory that if he brought in prairie dogs and established a population then introduced some black footed ferrets, that he would save the species and be able to repopulate the west with ferrets. For a while we heard about the great research that he was doing in tracking the population growth of the ferrets and how they were growing in numbers(no one but the researchers were allowed n the ferret area) After a couple of years we didn't hear anything about the "research" but we did notice that prairie dog towns started appearing on land that was neighboring his. You can see planted fields and pastures that lay in ruin from the prairie dogs in the surrounding area. Now I am not a scientist nor an "enviromentalist" but from seeing what happened here I can postulate that black footed ferrets are not a good limiter to prairie dog populations.
Here in the Northeast NM we are classified as a shortgrass prarie and I can tell you that the prairie dog lays waste to the land. Where they move in they dessimate the vegetation with or without help from livestock. If there are no grazing animals to compete and there is more available feed they merely breed faster. They can ruin planted fields to the point where you cannot irrigate or harvest crops due to the mounds and holes in the fields. I onced went to work for a ranch that a couple of years before had 160 acres of the prettiest broam grass hayfield around. They tell me that this hayfield was over 70 years old. In the course of a couple years the prairie dogs had turned it into dust and weeds. Because of the prairie dog holes the flood irrigation water runs into the tunnels and does not spread out across the field and water the crops. Even after killing off the praire dogs it is difficult to recultivate the land. The land around here does not take well to deep plowing (needed to collapse the tunnels and flatten the mounds) as we learned in the dust bowl era. It already takes about 40 acres to the animal unit for cattle and most small ranchers here are just barely hanging on. Making room for the prairie dog means that many of these small operators, some of these ranches have been in their families way over 100 years, will not be able to stay on their land.
I am not preaching the extermination of the prairie dog.The praire dog will always exist on public lands. But I do not think that the prairie dog builds a more productive ecology where he exists. Up here we have deer,elk,antelope,buffalo, black bear and turkeys and I have never seen any of these animals grazing or foraging in a prairie dog town. And I cannot agree with imposing prairie dogs on a private landowner.
JMHO, jmsj

[starmac]

You can't contain them by shooting them either.

[DCM]

Bowfin do you or anybody else her really want the US government telling the what they can do on their land??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have studied enough American history to know that the USG has really raped the Native Americans repeatedly!! Also the Natives aren't alone here, but have gotten it worse than most!

Are ferrets really more important than people? If so why don't you keep and feed a black foot ferret colony on your property?

I really can't believe I am typing this here. :( :shock::shock::shock::shock: :(

[starmac]

I have a question.
Why exactly did the tribe hire these environmental consultants, or was some party besides the tribe paying for the study.
What was their goal.
Is this a private group trying to talk the tribe into saving the ferrets playground?
What is the name of this group?
Is the govt involved in any way, even in funding the group.
If by chance some sporting ***, or conservation ***. somehow buys the land or rights to it(doubtful) could the dogs still be hunted.
How would whoever be responsible to to keep the dogs contained to the said land or will they just want more as the town grows?


If the govt is involved in any way, I am totally against it. I truly hope a ferret is very low on the priority list of our currant govt.

[jmsj]

Bowfin,
I guess your really commited to this black ferret issue.
You wrote:

How did you come to the conclusion we can't have both?
Better yet, let's make that an open question to everybody: "Is it possible for human beings and blackfooted ferrets to co-exist on the same planet?"

Yes it is possible. There is enough public lands that they can stay on.

You also wrote:

Well... book smarts are nice place to start...now tell us what you have done, so we can get a better feel for your "boots on the ground, skin in the game" conservation efforts...
My skin in the game is- I have been a farmer, cowboy and small rancher and have had to deal with them before. My family can track our continous agricultural history in America back to the 1870's In my previous post I wrote of the damage they can do to the land. It has always amazed me how people that do not live on the land and have no real "skin in the game" make rules for those of us who do. You cannot imagine the work, worry and economic loss that trying to deal with these animals and keeping an agricultural business going is.
And lastly you wrote:


Here is what I am going to do: I am going to get hold of the biologist, get some updates, and work with the Izaak Walton League to see what can be done with these ferrets and this pasture and the Indian reservation...

...and I already know what most of the rest of you are going to do...or not do...
The land you are speaking of is private land, sovereign land. It is up to the Indians as to what they feel are the best options and practices for their land. Like I stated before there is room for them on public lands. Once you get these "enviromental" groups involved the goverment is not far behind. We have all seen how the tree huggers in goverment if given an inch take a mile to advance their over-reaching agendas. If they had their way there would be no hunting period on public lands. Here in New Mexico we can no longer use lead shot for upland game. Do you know how much money that adds to an afternoon of dove hunting. I can no longer justify the money it takes away from my family to take my kids out dove hunting anymore. Can you imagine the added cost if all the Prairie dog shooters had to use non-toxic bullets? Just think of the prairie dog population explosion if prairie dog shooters stopped culling the prairie dog
I can appreciate your enthusiasm but you seem very intent on everybody agreeing with your point of view without considering their point of view.
Just a thought, jmsj

[starmac]

I googled the Issac Walton League.
The first paragraph on their website pretty much tells the story. Obama (or radical liberal) agenda.
Does one really want to get them involved with any private property.

Always On: Reliable electricity in an age of coal plant retirement
The idea that we need traditional fossil-fuel power plants to meet our nation's minimum electricity needs, called “baseload power,” is becoming increasingly obsolete. The Izaak Walton League explores how current energy market forces—such as state-based renewable energy standards, lower building costs for wind and solar generation, and a transition from localized distribution networks to regional transmission systems—are paving the way for cleaner, more efficient ways to meet our energy needs. : : MORE

[starmac]

I am still reading up on their website. So far I have not found a reason to ever want to support their cause. A member of earthshare, why don't I go vote for Obummer tomorrow.

I am sure they have done something right, even a busted clock is right twice a day.

[DCM]

How did you come to the conclusion we can't have both?

Better yet, let's make that an open question to everybody: "Is it possible for human beings and blackfooted ferrets to co-exist on the same planet?"



Well... book smarts are nice place to start...now tell us what you have done, so we can get a better feel for your "boots on the ground, skin in the game" conservation efforts...



Me neither...

Here is what I am going to do: I am going to get hold of the biologist, get some updates, and work with the Izaak Walton League to see what can be done with these ferrets and this pasture and the Indian reservation...

...and I already know what most of the rest of you are going to do...or not do...

1:I never said or even inferred that we cannot have both.
I even questioned why you don't start your own colony on YOUR own property.

2:As for my book smarts I was refering to the way the USG have repeatedly shafted the Native americans.
Nice how you even shortened the sentence on that one. Running for office???
Sorry I am not 200+ years old so my book smarts will have to sufice when it comes to history beyond my age, can't change that.

3:I see someone has coverd the liberal league.

[jmsj]

Bowfin,
Obviously you have never spent much time around a farm/ranch. Your theory sounds great but it is only a theory.
I have seen prairie dog towns start near the edge of a hay field. Then the next thing you know they are making mounds in the hayfield. sporadically at first but then they start making more and more. I have seen prairie dogs try to colonize a hay field in the time between the harvest and the next green up.
I once saw a ranch lay fallow for a couple of years due to the death of a rancher. They had no prairie dogs and no one ran cattle on the land for a couple of years. Before the ranch laid idle there was plenty of buffallo and gramma grass. Then we started to see the mounds appear. I have seen prairiie dog towns on land that had been in CRP for 10 years. We once had an infirmary pasture that we left alone so that it would be clean of manure if we needed to quarenteen(sp?) some animals. The grass was good and tall and one day we noticed the start of a coulple of prairie dog mounds.
I see that you say that the great roaming herds of buffalo are the limiter for the prairie dogs. Where are these great herds today? Are you suggesting that we go back to pre westward expansion? I personally take offense to you stating that if I have a prairie dog town that I am overgrazng my land when you have never seen my land.
I am wondering if you have gotten your information first hand or just out of your propaganda handouts?
jmsj

[starmac]

I see where under events there was a trapshoot . I'm also sure that local chapters have more than what is advertised on the leagues websight.

They also are proud of the fact that the league supports Al Gores agenda.
Curtailing Climate Change
Increasingly, climate change is an issue of critical importance for League members. We are already seeing changes in fish and wildlife habits and habitats. We are working to raise awareness of these adverse impacts and to promote responsible policies that will reduce global warming emissions in a meaningful way.

[waksupi]

Apparently a lack of knowledge of prairie dog diet. THEY are what does the overgrazing. Just what do you think they eat? Rocks?

The fact they carry bubonic plague is also a strike against them.

[jmsj]

Bowfin,
From my experience coddling the grass will not stop the prairie dog. I have given you a few examples of them invading healthy grasslands and planted crops. Overgrazing may help them get a start but I can't say for sure but think of this, if the livestock have eaten all the feed what are the prairie dogs going to eat?
As to why they didn't cause the buffalo to go extinct I have a theory (mind you this is just a theory). Back in the day a single prairie fire could wipe out hundreds or thousand of square miles. This would wipe out the feed and starve out the prairie dogs and the buffalo would just move on. I also believe that before we started trying control the rivers and the put flood control devices in place that more of the land flooded and killed the prairie dogs in their tunnels. I have personally used flood irrrigation to kill of prairie dogs before they got too bad. I would imagine before the westward expansion there were many many more animals. Predators and prey alike. I would imagine because of the sheer numbers of a prairie dog town there were more predators located around the towns. I have even read accounts of Native Americans trapping them for food. And other than oral history there is no detailed data on how it really was.
Through necessity we removed many of the predators from the land. Think of the original range of the grizzly bear, wolf and lion. They were probably in the area where you live now. Would you like to have them wandering around the neighborhood where your kids play? We have also had to make the land more productive to feed not only our country but many others. This ability to produce food beyond our consumption is the base of our prosperity as a nation. We have also populated the country to the point that civilization neccesarily pushed the wildlife back. In my opinion "Conservation" is about managing the numbers. I seriuosly doubt we will ever extinct the prairie dog. They are tough resourceful animals and they will breed to the conditions of their enviroment. When feed is abundant their population literally explodes exponentionaly. In lean years they breed less and resolve themselves to cannibalism.
I have seen pictures of prairie dog towns that are miles long and wide. Why are the ferrets not thriving there? I told you of the rich rancher here that tried to establish prairie dog towns here to establish the black footed ferret-he failed after probably putting millions of dollars into the project. I don't understand why the black footed ferret is failing but it not thriugh the lack of prairie dogs.
JHMO, jmsj

[starmac]

Jms, you need to read up on the subject before predicting the prairie dog will not go extinct.

Just today I read on the earthshare website that 10,000 species a year have been going extinct.
At that alarming rate, I don't even give the human race very many more years.

[starmac]

Yup them boolit casters have been sitting quietly around prairie dog towns watching them get bigger, just hoping to bag a trophy ferret. geesh

[waksupi]

When ever I hear government money being spent on it, I can assure you I will take action.

[btroj]

Maybe Izaak Walton has a forum this could be posted on, they might be more excited about potential government intervention on behalf of a ferret.

[reloader28]

P-dogs are because of overgrazing????
Maybe in some instances, but not around here. We've spent most of the summer wiping out a p-dog town in the middle of a 3 year old alfalfa field under a center pivot on a dairy farm. Another one in a well watered pasture with grass knee high. That theory is an all out lie.

P-dogs completely destroy the land and we need to make them extinct. Black footed ferrets are weak otherwise they would not have died off.

I worked on the ranch where they were first discovered here back in the early eighties. They tried for many years to keep those ferrets growing in captivity and from what I heard, after 15 years they were still at only something like 13 or 15. That is a MAJOR waste of tax payer money. They wont even multiply in a safe environment.

[M-Tecs]

P-dogs are because of overgrazing????
Maybe in some instances, but not around here. We've spent most of the summer wiping out a p-dog town in the middle of a 3 year old alfalfa field under a center pivot on a dairy farm. Another one in a well watered pasture with grass knee high. That theory is an all out lie.

You have seen this to be true with your own eyes as I did with my buddy that planted p-dogs. He planted them by a stream in very fertile ground with very good grass. It was kind of a low spot that his house over looked. It was 80 areas that he used for a bull pasture. This was not even close to being overgrazed and it always had knee high to belly high grass. Within 4 years he couldn’t keep the p-dogs contained in the bull pasture. Ten years later he had p-dogs on close to 900 acres.

You have seen it and I have seen it but since some book/biologist says it’s not so I guess we have to believe what we are told and not what we have seen with our own eyes.

The other claim that I love is that p-dogs improve the land. If that was true every rancher would be planting them to improve profits. Since ranchers spend a great deal of time and money to get rid of p-dogs anyone with a lick of common sense would realize that p-dogs hurt profits.