Lyman #2 from WW - am I missing something?

[ghh3rd]

I am confused about making an approximate Lyman #2 alloy from wheelweights.

I found that the Lyman #2 recipe is 90% lead, 5% tin, and %5 antimony.

I also found more than one reference to the Lyman #2 recipe of 9 lbs of wheelwheighs and 1 lb of 50/50 bar solder (which is 1/2 lb lead & 1/2 lb tin).

If wheelweight alloy only contains about 2% antimony, wouldn't this basically be the same as me adding 5% tin to my wheelweights, rather than the 2% that I normally add?

I have read many times that adding more than 2% tin to wheehweights is a waste of tin... would the antimony be the more important element of Lyman #2?

Thanks,

Randy

[runfiverun]

back when that was written ww's had more antimony in them.
at one time they were more like 9% then 7% then dropped off to 4% and stayed there for @ 30 years.
it's more recently that they have really started to vary in thier consistency.
even the stick on's have changed thier values.

you are correct in the assumtion that you can't get there from here.

tin is an important additive to lead alloys up to a certain point and antimony adds to mold fill-out also.

[ghh3rd]

Does anyone just add another 3% antimony to the mix to achieve Lyman #2?

[popper]

Check bumpo's alloy calculator. Drop the Sb in COWW to 2.5% and figure what you need to get #2.

[runfiverun]

you can get pretty close with linotype,tin, and ww's it's still a guess though.
you can also get right close with commercial "hardball" also known as terracorp magnum alloy
which is 2/6/92.
i use it with 2% more tin added for a 4/6/90 alloy,or make it by cutting lino in half with pure then adding the extra 2% tin.
hard to tell the difference between that and 5/5/90.

[Maven]

Also, You don't need 5% Sn (tin) in WW's to get good fill-out. If you can get by with 1% try it. If not, 2% is fine.

[ghh3rd]

You don't need 5% Sn (tin) in WW's to get good fill-out

That's true -- the Lyman #2 forumula calls for it, but it does seem to be a lot of tin.

[Jeff82]

There's quite a bit of addtional discussion on this here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=168073

[geargnasher]

The tin isn't for fillout in Lyman #2. Metallurgists discovered thad 5% of Sn and Sb in a lead base forms a "Pseudo-eutectic" alloy because the Sb and Sn form an intermetallic bond that acts as a single element, and when that "element" is in 10% proportion to lead, the resulting "binary" is eutectic. You have to have the proportions pretty much dead nutz on though to see the best benefit. Lyman #2 is very tough, yet malleable when air-cooled, and casts extremely well, hence the desirability.

Gear

[JeffinNZ]

I agree with Gear. The additional tin was malleability motivated.

[runfiverun]

it's malleability,but the SbSn chain also acts to toughen the whole enchilada.
it's a long chain binder thing.

[EMC45]

Every bullet I have put in my SAECO tester has been pure clip on WWs and they come right up to Lyman #2.

[MT Chambers]

Something very wrong here, Lyman #2 alloy has a BHN of over twice as hard as WW......I use alot of tin esp. for hunting bullets.

[EMC45]

Something very wrong here, Lyman #2 alloy has a BHN of over twice as hard as WW......I use alot of tin esp. for hunting bullets.

Just telling you what I found friend. I was shocked too. This is with clip ons not stick ons. I was getting readings between 8 and 9 on my cast bullets. On the SAECO scale 8 is Lyman #2. But there again they have WWs set at SAECO #6. I have found them to be a good deal harder though. My brother bought me the SAECO, which was a huge shock to me. When I first got it I used it obsessively. I have only used it from time to time now. It is handy.

[cbrick]

Every bullet I have put in my SAECO tester has been pure clip on WWs and they come right up to Lyman #2.


Something very wrong here, Lyman #2 alloy has a BHN of over twice as hard as WW......I use alot of tin esp. for hunting bullets.


Just telling you what I found friend. I was shocked too.

Very much my experience with the SAECO tester, very surprising results. It was confusing until I realized that I wasn't getting anything close to consistent results. Test a bullet from a batch and later test a bullet from the same batch and get a completely different result. Later get the first result again or something completely different again.

I think I still have the thing but haven't touched it in years.

Rick

[geargnasher]

While an alloy might test as HARD as #2 (I know the tester may be off in the previous example), it may react completely differently than #2 when struck with a hammer or fired at game. Hardness means squat.

I too have some clippies that tested in the high fourteens consistently when cast, air-cooled, and aged, even through half a dozen different moulds. Also seen it a lot softer.

Gear

[Tom Myers]

This is from the "Notes" Section of the Precision Alloy Calculator (http://www.tmtpages.com/Alloy/alloycalc.htm).

It is a recipe for the precise blend to obtain Lyman # 2 Alloy from Wheelweights, Linotype and Tin. (Providing of course that the Wheelweights blend is 95.5% Lead, 4% Antimony and 0.05% Tin)

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Alloy/alloy_%232.gif

It also goes on to explain the method used to determine the proportions of the blend.

Make Lyman #2 Alloy from Wheelweights, Tin and Linotype.

79.264% Wheelweights + 16.631% Linotype + 4.105% Tin
Or
79% Wheelweights + 17% Linotype + 4% Tin

15.85 lb Wheelweights + 3.38 lb Linotype + 0.821 lb Tin = 20 lb #2 Alloy
　
Wheelweights = 0.5% Tin, 4.0% Antimony and 95.5% Lead
Linotype = 3% Tin, 11% Antimony and 86% lead.
Lyman # 2 Alloy is composed of 5% Tin, 5% Antimony and 90% Lead.

To Make Lyman # 2 Alloy:
Combine 10.000 lb Wheelweights + 2.098 lb Linotype + 0.518 lb Tin.

10 lb WW + 2.1 lb Lino + 0.52 lb Tin
　
Below is the method used to determine the exact amounts of Linotype and Tin to add to Wheelweights that will make Lyman #2 Alloy

Start with 10 lb of Wheelweights.
10 lb Wheelweights is made up of 9.55lb Lead + 0.05lb Tin + 0.4lb Antimony

To find the amount of Linotype and Tin to add to make #2 Alloy.
The amount of Tin in the alloy will be 0.05 lb of tin in the wheelweights + 3% Tin in the Linotype that is added.
Total Tin in the finished alloy will be equal to the total Antimony in the alloy.

Now, let
L = Linotype and T = Tin and W = Wheelweights
0.11L = Linotype Antimony and 0.03L = Linotype Tin
Wt = Wheelweight Tin = 10 lbs x 0.005 = 0.05
Wa = Wheelweight Antimony = 10 lbs x 0.04 = 0.4.
So 0.11L + 0.04 Wt = ( T + L + 0.04 Wa + 0.11L - .005Wt - 0.03L) x 0.05
And There will be 5% Tin in the final Alloy

We start with 10 lbs of Wheel weights, so multiply all Ws in the equation x 10 / W
The formla is: 0.11L + 0.4 = (10 + L + 0.4 + 0.11L - 0.05 - 0.03L) x 0.05
This reduces to 0.11L + 0.4 = 0.054L + 0.5175
Finally: 0.056L = 0.1175
L = 2.098214286 lbs of Linotype to add + Tin
Linotype Tin = L x 0.03 ~ 0.629464 + Wheelweight Tin ~ 0.05 = 0.1129464 lbs
Total Antimony = L x 0.11 + Wa ~ 0.4 = 0.63080357 lbs
So, subtract 0.1129464 from 0.63080357 = 0.517857 lbs of Tin to add to the alloy.

10.00 lb Wheelweights + 2.0982143 lb Linotype + 0.517857 lb Tin = 12.61607 lb of #2 Alloy
Or
10 lb WW + 2.1 lb Lino + 0.52 lb tin = 12.62 lb of Lyman # 2 Alloy
Or
15.85 lb WW + 3.33 lb Lino + .82lb Tin = 20 lb of Lyman # 3 Alloy

[Maven]

Tom's post #17 should be made a "sticky."

[runfiverun]

it would be correct if ww's were that composition alway's.
nowday's they are what they are.
stickon ww's are hard/soft,and in between.
and clip on's are just some lead and antimony and maybe some tin and maybe some arsenic.
i'm more betting they are just made from whatever ww's went back to the factory.
they all got dumped together and reformed.
semi consistent but good nuff to put on the boat and ship back to the usa at a discount.

[cbrick]

Interesting post but in this day & age I think it would be a mistake to "assume" that today you'll find many WW's with 4% Sb. 2% is probably more like it but that too is an assumption simply because today's WW's, even brand new ones are largely made from scrap alloy's, not from foundry metals and there is no "recipe", each mfg does their own thing. The percentages vary not only from mfg to mfg but also with the same mfg as the cost and availability of metals change. Bottom line is that WW alloy is quite variable.

The metallurgy of Pb/Sb/Sn alloy is not to exceed the Sb percent with Sn. There is scientific reason for this but suffice it say that if you have 2% Sb alloy and add Sn as if it were 4% . . . Well, at the least is wasting the Sn.

I did bunch of alloy testing a few years ago using Roto Metals "Super Hard" as known percentages and the "assumption that COWW had 2% Sb and came up with BHN approximating Lyman #2. I did the same with stick-on weights assuming no Sb and could easily match the BHN of Lyman #2.

Rick

[runfiverun]

there's the rub when we talk ww's here too.

i still have ww's i gathered in the 80's- 90's into just after y2-k.
they were called 4% back then and tested bhn wise as that pretty consistently.
the last batch i bought [after someone stole a bunch of my stash] showed me more like 3% average.
i have 2 buckets of each old/new left to melt down and i'm just gonne run them together, add 1% tin,and add to the big batch pile i remelted into one big batch two winters ago.
and call it 3% antimony average for any [future] mixing purposes.

[cajun shooter]

I can say with out a doubt that all the WW's I have used in Louisiana for the past 10 years or so have been around the 10BHN.
I have used a Cabin Tree tester and consider it to be one of the better ones made. It shows all my WW's at the area of 10BHN
My friend John Boy finds them much harder in the NE (New Jersey area) as they show in the 13 or higher BHN. 15 BHN is #2 alloy.
I now find many that are not made from lead at all.

[duck hollow pete]

Here in sw pa they seem to harder,I ger car and truck at work, they all tend ring a good bit when dropped, some do bend and some outright snap, one of these days I'll bhn them.