Gas Checked WW rifle boolit - Velocity vs. Hardness

[youngda9]

I am about to start casting for my 358 Winchester Ruger model 77 rifle and have a few questions. My alloy is clip on wheel weight ingots. I would prefer to stick to this and not have to add tin($$) or anything else to the mix. The boolit I'll be shooting is a 230grain gas checked boolit. I plan on lubing with 45/45/10 lube as I do with all of my other cast boolits (357 mag, and 44mag for pistol and rifle). This will be my first experience with gas checks. I do not own a lubra-sizer nor do I want to spend for one.

Can I use this combination with air cooled WW boolits at 2000fps? at 2200fps? Faster?

Will I be able to get more velocity with a hardened (water dropped) boolit?

Are there velocity limitations on the 45/45/10 lube(assuming the bullet is sized correctly for my rifle) ? Do I need to get more lube on the area of the boolit that contacts the rifling(and lube grooves) than I normally use for pistols(light tumble as Recluse suggests). Would another lube help me get more velocity?

[runfiverun]

you have to have a way to attatch the gas checks. you don't just push them on and call it good.
i don't know what velocity's you are thinking of.
but you might need to water drop at a certain point.
the 45/45 lube will push along just fine i'd do the lube size/check and lube routine for a bit.
when you get to pushing things you might want to start pan lubing.
the 45 lube might keep up, i add b-wax to my version and have pushed it to about 2100 in my 8 mauser with no issues.
i fill the bottom lube groove on them by dip lubing,after i seat the g/c.
the 358's are really cast friendly,stick to the slow powders and work up, you'll know when you get to where a change is needed.

[youngda9]

I use the lee push-through sizing technique, it will seats the check at the same time.

I'm looking for 2100+fps. 2300 should easily be attainable with a jacketed bullet so I'd like to get as close to that as possible.

What are the indicators to let me know when I "might need to water drop at a certain point" ?

[popper]

Missed targets.

[youngda9]

Missed targets.
Due to boolit too soft and gets chewed up by the rifling and doesn't fly right? Is that the failure mechanism?

[waksupi]

Look at the ballistics tables for the .358 Win. With your boolit weight, you will be pretty much at the top end velocity-wise, as compared to factory. Be happy between 2100-2200 fps. This will give you a point blank around 225 yards. To make any appreciable difference in trajectory, you would need to add another 300 fps. Not practical, or wise.

[popper]

Mostly. Stripped by rifling, slumped noses, etc. I tested 308 with 5% and 2.5% antimony WD ( COWW & COWW/pure) and couldn't tell the difference @ 50 yds. Load put it 2200 ish. If you don't WD, wait ~ a month before loading and shooting.

[1Shirt]

Suggest you might want to look for vols less than what you list. Probably do just fine with air cooled ww, at something in the area around 1800 fps +/- a bit either way. Chances are that you will find your best accuracy in that vol range, but you won't know till you shoot and try out your loads. Great ctg, might want to look at some of Ben's threads.
1Shirt!

[pdawg_shooter]

Easy fix, paper patch. ACWW is good to around 2600/2650 fps. Makes a perfect game bullet.

[youngda9]

Sounds like I'll have the best chance right off the bat water dropping. I'll shoot for 2200fps with tumble lubing only.

[popper]

A good and easy way to start. As you gain experience you can make changes and see what works for you.

[JeffinNZ]

Shooting ACWW HP's out of my .223 at 2300fps.

[felix]

Smaller the diameter, quicker the boolit cools. Diameter over length, always, because of the squaring of the boolit's radius to make up the volume of lead contained. ... felix

[williamwaco]

Please report your results.

[Griz44mag]

Take a look at your pressures as well. I have found that the pressure vs lead hardness is a very important factor to deal with. You can't make FPS without pressure. Richard Lee did extensive testing of this relationship and found it to be almost as important as fit. If you use a fast powder vs a slower powder for the same speed end result, the pressures will vary enough to make one of them lead like crazy while the other is clean. I gave up chasing the FPS ideology a long time ago, now I load by size and pressure. Accuracy has increased dramatically and leading has decreased accordingly. Most decent reloading manuals will have anticipated pressures in the tables, and they are there for a reason.

[geargnasher]

There's a LOT more to it than just "hardness vs. pressure". I routinely shoot loads that exceed the alloy strength with chamber pressure by three or more times with excellent results. It gets complicated because "toughness" and temper matter more than hardness, and pressure/time curve means a lot more than peak pressure does.

Gear

[btroj]

I am with Gear on this. Get the right balance of pressure curve, for, alloy composition and heat treat, and a good lube and you can shoot a far softer alloy than you are "supposed" to be able to use.
Only rule is that there are now rules. If it works, use it. Only one way to know what works and that is to go try it. The gun will let you know what it likes.

[HARRYMPOPE]

You may get acceptable accuracy with ACWW @ 2000.You have to try it for yourself.The if it doesn't shoot try water dropping.it depends on how well the bullet fits the throat of the rifle to a point.
Lee push through die and their tumble lube will work fine.I can get 1600 fps with ACWW and about 2" groups at 100(5 shots) with no lube at all in my 35 Whelen.Not super long term but for about 40 shots before i have to run one or two lubed bullets down to scour it out.

george

[MT Chambers]

Your accuracy may top out well before you reach your velocity goals, I'd use Lyman #2 alloy, and try a few different diameters, for best results. Folks use cast boolits for many reasons, one is to save money, however you can't be guaranteed anything until you try all your options. Some options may require some financial investing ie: tin and/or Linotype, a few sizing dies, luber/sizer, etc. When looking for top accuracy, and not performance on game, pure linotype has been best for me at 1800-2100fps.

[JesterGrin_1]

If you use Pure Lino can you not de- tempere the nose as described by Paco here? For Hunting. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

What he says in a nutshell is he casts a hard boolit to enable him to push them harder and will de-tempere the nose of the bullet by standing them in water up to the crimp line and using a propane torch heat them till you just notice a change then remove heat and let them cool thus making the nose soft for expansion.

[youngda9]

I do plan on using slower powders to keep the peak current down. I would like to get rifle performance our of my 358 rifle...otherwise it won't really be anything more than my 44 mag rifles that I get 1650fps with ACWW 268 grain tumble lubed boolits. Perhaps it could extend my range by 50yds if I can only get 2000fps out of it.

Sounds like for serious work, J-word boolits are in order. Can shoot a 225 grain J-word bullet up to about 2500 fps according to my research.

[geargnasher]

I don't understand the need to run the round flat up against the maximum chamber pressure wall, but if you have it, the easiest way to get there is to shoot jacketed. Copper or paper. There are some bigger .35's too.

What are your intentions with the gun? Do you need ft/lbs to knock over steel at distance, hunting, or are you just into pain?

Gear

[Gohon]

Perhaps it could extend my range by 50yds if I can only get 2000fps out of it.

I don't see anything that will hold your back. I'm pushing a 158 grain SWC/GC at 1906 fps from a 357 mag rifle using 17 grains of Lil'Gun. These are air cooled wheel weights at about 12 BHN dip lubed in LLA. No leading what so ever but accuracy is just so so at 5 inches at 100 yards. Then again this rifle doesn't like SWC no mater what is pushing them. Out of my 357 maximum I can push the same bullet at 1983 FPS with great accuracy and no leading. These are all sized with a Lee .358 sizer that actually results in .3585 in size.

[youngda9]

I don't understand the need to run the round flat up against the maximum chamber pressure wall, but if you have it, the easiest way to get there is to shoot jacketed. Copper or paper. There are some bigger .35's too.

What are your intentions with the gun? Do you need ft/lbs to knock over steel at distance, hunting, or are you just into pain?

Gear
The short answer: I bought a 358, so I'd like it to shoot as much like a 358 with cast boolits.

I'd like a long range hard hitting cast boolit do-it all load. I don't mind recoil and don't complain about "pain", it's only temporary. I want to get as much effective range out of it as I can for hunting deer and elk with a cast boolit. I have 44 mag rifles that get me out to 100-150 yds easily shooting cast. I'd like the 358 to get me to out as much past 200yds as possible, 200yds is about where a 230 grain 358 bullet shot at 2000fps really starts to fall off the table.

"I don't understand the need to run the round flat up against the maximum chamber pressure wall" HUH...We aren't even talking about being anywhere close to the "wall" with a 358 when we're talking about 2000fps with a 200-230 grain bullet.

A 230 grain bullet at 2000 fps is only 2043 foot-lbs of energy. A 358 can do 50% more than that.

Most of the loading out there is geared towards leverguns. Just check out the Hogdon site, all of the "max" loads are listed at just under 50k CUP for the most part. The 358 is a 52k CUP round. A Ruger bolt gun can handle much higher pressures than that(chambered in more powerful rounds). So there is a lot of potential with this round.

Handloader #254 lists the following loads with a Ruger hawkeye, check out the impressive velocities and energies.
.358 Winchester; three-shot group dia.
TAC w/ Fed 215 primers:
200 gr. Barnes TSX 52.0 gr. 2749 fps 1.15" 3336 fpe
225 gr. Sierra GK 49.0 gr. 2552 fps 1.47" 3253 fpe
250 gr. Hornady RN 48.0 gr. 2404 fps 0.95" 3208 fpe
250 gr. Nosler Part. 48.0 gr. 2423 fps 1.44" 3258 fpe

Perhaps I have unrealistic expectations with cast boolits. From all of my research it appears that 2000-2200fps seems like the max that everyone is able to get, in that window accuracy seems to diminish. What I'm hearing is that 200yds will be about the limit for all cast bullets for hunting applications, unless you are lobbing in Large Heavy slugs.

[JesterGrin_1]

The short answer is No. You will not be able to shoot cast as fast as jacketed rounds unless you paper patch.

You have not stated what you wish to hunt for?

But there is a new bullet out that looks great. The Nosler AccuBond
200 Grain Bonded Spitzer Boat Tail. Push that with some TAC. With this combination you should be able to get up into the mid 2600 FPS Range with careful loading. But the Bullets are Expensive.


If you do not wish to spend that much on a bullet Hornady has the 200Gr FTX of which can be pushed to the same speeds with good expansion. But since this bullet is designed for the 35 Remington I would not shoot anything with it at close range loaded to these speeds.

So I think with the 200 Gr Bullets and at what speeds can be obtained you can reach out and touch something. :)

[youngda9]

Deer and elk, post #24.
I want a minimum of 1000 ft-lbs on deer and 1500 on elk at the max range.

That nosler accubond 200 grain bullet is listed at a BC of .365.

I was thinking the 250gr speer hot-core fired at 2400fps with a BC of .446 was the hot ticket.

Range Velocity Impact Energy
0 2400 -1.62 3198
50 2303 1.39 2944
100 2212 2.76 2716
150 2122 2.35 2500
200 2035 0 2299
250 1949 -4.46 2109
300 1867 -11.21 1935
350 1786 -20.47 1771
400 1709 -32.45 1621

At 250 yards it is traveling at 1950fps and still has 2100 ft-lbs of energy...what we're talking about the cast boolit muzzle energy limitations as.

[JesterGrin_1]

I picked the 200Gr Class as depending on your magazine and chamber you may have a problem with the 225 Gr class and up bullets plus the lighter weight bullets will help with higher FPS and Extended Ranges.

So for Elk I would pick the New Nosler AccuBond 200 Grain Bonded Spitzer Boat Tail or if in your area it has to be lead free the TSX. But again they are not cheap.

For Deer the Hornady FTX would work well if you keep your shots over say 15 or 20 yards if loaded to max speeds.

The Sierra Boat Tail 225 Gr boat tail is a very accurate bullet and built stubby so it can be loaded in the .358 Winchester and is far cheaper than the Premium bullets available.

[youngda9]

Thanks for the info JesterGrin_1. I do have a box of the 100 grain FTX bullets that I got with the rifle so I'll try them first.

I hadn't come across the Sierra boat tail yet, looks like a winner.

[JesterGrin_1]

You will probably only be able to push the 250gr at the mid 2200 FPS Range. So if you do that you might as well go back to Cast lol. As a couple of hundred FPS will not make much difference.

In jacketed bullets I think the 200-225 Gr Class is just right for the .358 Winchester.

The Speer 250Gr Hot-Core or Grand Slam work well in the 35 Whelen. As I have used it on Game Personally. :)

Here is some Reading. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm