9mm/.45 bullet mold need advice

[dmclark523]

So I currently have 2 Lee molds, one for 124gn TL 9mm (.356) and one for 230gn TL .45 (.452). I also purchased sizing dies for each of these molds at .356 and .452 respectively, even though I realize TL boolits are meant to load without sizing.
The 9mm have been coming out at .357/.358. The .45's have been coming out at .452/.453.
I have been experiencing leading in both guns, and am to the point where I think its either the lube or the mold. I recently loaded and shot some .358 for my 9mm, and it reduced leading fairly well.

Question is, should I look for a new mold? One with traditional lube grooves? I've been using 45/45/10 for lube, by the way. If you could suggest one that would be great guys. Thanks

[Echo]

DM, have you slugged your 9mm bbl? In my limited experience, they vary greatly, and a .357-8 sized boolit may be called for. Re the .452, what loob are you using? Applies to the 9mm also. LLA? 45-45-10? K-Y?
The Lyman 356402 is fairly standard for 9mm's - it's what I use in my P1 with no drama. But I believe your choice should work if they are the right diameter.

[oldandslow]

dmc, 10/25/12

You bought the exact same two molds I started out with for loading .45 and 9mm and use the same tumble lube mix (Recluse 45-45-10). You also have the same results I got. After a lot of time and experimentation the causes became apparent.

First for the .45-230 grain TL mold- I got the six banger and all mold cavities were dropping in the 0.453" range. I loaded them without sizing on my Dillon Square Deal B press. When I pulled the bullets from the loaded cases the lead bullet diameter had been swaged down to 0.450". Thus my lead boolet, when fired, was too small and I had severe leading issues (20 rounds would completely filll the grooves making my barrel a smoothbore). I tried a number of things but could never get rid of the swaging when seating the boolet. I tried a different Lee mold, the 228 grain, two conventional lube grooves, 0.452" mold. While these didn't swage down like the tumble lube groove boolets the ogive was so fat that I had to load them really short to fit my case-gauge and pistol chambers. The final answer was to order a semicustom mold from Acurate Molds(www.accuratemolds.com) after slugging my barrels. His molds drop just the diameter I ordered, no sizing is needed and I have absolutely no leading issues.

For the Lee 9mm 124 tumble lube mold= the mold dropped boolets in the 0.357-.358" range and when used unsized the frontmost lube driving band would hang up in the case gauge and pistol chambers unless loaded really short. When loaded really short the case crimp wouldn't get a grip on the downsloping front edge of the drive band and I could easily push the bullet into the case with finger pressure. I did not try sizing them but went right to the Lee 125 grain conventional lube groove mold. Again there was the problem with the fat-ogive limiting chambering in the pistol barrel and case gauge whether sized or unsized. I again ordered another AccurateMold mold, sized 0.002" over barrel diameter and all problems solved.

Some people love the TL molds and some swear at them (like me). As many others told me- if there is leading the usual cause is too small a boolet, and the only way to tell if it is too small before firing is to pull some boolits out of the loaded cartridges and use a micrometer (not caliper) to check them. Hang in there and good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow

[captaint]

Mr. Clark - You did good not sizing the 9mm's and shooting them as cast. I think if you used some real lube you might find no leading for the 9mm. Might try running them through a lubesizer die at ..358 and lube 2 of the little grooves. Might work. Using straight WW's may also help with the leading. As for the .45 - .452 usually works, so I could only question the lube or your alloy. Although I normally just use 50/50 WW's and Pb for the .45's. Guess it would help if you slugged both barrels just to see what the dimensions look like. Measure with micrometers for an accurate reading of the slug. enjoy Mike Another thought.... Try pulling boolits from loaded dummy rounds to check the diameter of the boolit AFTER seating and pulling. Sometimes, if the brass is not opened up enough by your expander, the brass will swage down the boolit when seating/pulling - shooting.

[mdi]

Bullet fit is, IMO, the most important factor shooting lead bullets. Slug your barrel so you know exactly what you're working with. I have 2 9mm and neither is what they are "supposed" to be; one has a groove diameter of .357" and the other is about .358"+. So when I shot cast .357" bullets in my new 9mm, I got leading (before I had a chance to slug the bore). Look for where the leading is in the barrel; just beyond chamber, all the way through, or near the muzzle, then look here http://www.leverguns.com/articles/leading.htm might help...

Just my opinion; Lee Factory Crimp Die + Lead Bullets = Barrel Leading.

[mistermog]

If you are using lee molds, they are made to expand for jacketed bullets, and especially with the 9mm the case was actually squishing the bullet down in my case. Theres a sticky on that by Jailer that might be worth a look.

Definitely slug the barrles and then make sure the bullets pulled from the cases are at the MINIMUM that size, or preferrably .001 bigger.

(If they are sized bigger than the .356 / .452, dont use a factory crimp die, I was having problems with that as well)

[popper]

Try a harder alloy that doesn't swage down when loaded. The higher Sb should make them drop a tad larger also.

[chris in va]

I never had any luck with the TL molds.

[Shiloh]

I never had any luck with the TL molds.

At least not in 9mm for me.

Shiloh

[MT Gianni]

IMO. there is no harder bullet to get shooting than the 124 gr TL.

[MBuechle]

175 TL in my .40 with Alox or 45/45/10 works great! 124 TL in my 9, not so much! Went to Mihec 124 HP with 45/45/10, 90% of problems solved. I'm still getting swage down by cases. I'm making new powder funnel for the 550B to solve this. Also switching to BAC for lube. We'll see.

[Recluse]

IMO. there is no harder bullet to get shooting than the 124 gr TL.


At least not in 9mm for me.

Shiloh

For sure that has been my miserable experience.

But I can't get any lead 9mm load that I'm satisfied with. It's the one handgun caliber that I've gone back to buying and loading jacketed projectiles with for full-power stuff. I've got some lighter loads I do with the Lee 105SWC and the 102RN, but as soon as I start adding some heat to the load, accuracy diminishes.

I've got a load for 115 jacketed that outperforms every single factory load I've fired and does so in all of my 9mm guns, so (reluctantly) I'm staying with that for serious shooting and saving the lead loads for plinking.

That Lee TL124RN is the single worst boolit I've ever dealt with. As a general rule, I like the boolits that come out of Lee molds better than I do the other factory molds, but their .356 stuff is a notable exception.

:coffee:

[mdi]

As stated above, 9mm isn't the easiest to reload with lead bullets. So, I started my reloading of my9mms with Barry'e plated until I got the hang of it then went to lead (Lee 125 gr. RNFP).

[MtGun44]

Lee 356-120-TC with NRA 50-50 conventional lube design at .357 or .358 is very likely
to be accurate and produce no leading for 9mm.

Lee makes a conventional design 200 gr SWC for .45 ACP that is somewhat similar to
(often called a clone of but it is NOT) to the superb H&G 68 which has gotten some
good reviews here. I have not tried it, use a real H&G 68 mold instead. There are
real H&G 68 clone molds out there (MP makes one) that are highly recommended.

Some do very well with TL designs, many fail with them, especially with the 9mm. If you
can't get a handle on the TLs, I recommend the conventional lube designs above and a
known good lube like NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue as a starting point. Don't use a
mystery lube or homemade at first if you have been having problems, it can be
a frustration factor. Once you succeed, then you can go back and try that new lube
formula and see if it works - find a successful path, then do single variable changes to
see how each thing works.

Check this sticky out, it may help, too.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737

Best of luck.

Bill

[40Super]

I have good luck with the Lyman 120gr tc, as long as it casts large enough for the barrel, mine drops at .3575"-.358" so some of my barrels it is borderline but does shoot great in the "normal' sized barrels. My favorite is a Magma Engineering 140gr TC for .38cal. It drop .360" so I can size it to the correct size. Miha and NOE 130gr hp and 135 fp's are also great shooters and with all my molds, as long as my boolits are bigger than the barrel, there is no leading, even at max, velocities.

The same is true with the .45, but I do run a softer alloy,around 10-11 bhn, for most of molds. I do have a factory barrel that need .454" sized boolits so it is possible the .452" won't work in others, though not as common .

[ShooterAZ]

I never had any luck with the TL molds.

I agree, but with one exception. It was the Lee 45 cal 200 TL SWC. After I bought my lube sizer I sold all my TL molds and never looked back. This is all about learning, and if I had to do it all over again I would never buy any TL molds. I recommend for beginners to buy conventional mold designs, because they will work perfectly well as tumble lubed. Then if they decide later they want to buy a lube sizer, they are already good to go. I don't own or cast for a 9mm...sorta glad I don't. I can recommend a mold for your 45 ACP, it is the RCBS 201 SWC. This boolit shoots great in all my 45's.

[MikeS]

I load and shoot the TL230gr and TL200gr Lee boolits and never have a problem with leading. To stop your brass from sizing down the boolits try using a Lyman expander. The Lyman expander not only bells the mouth, but it also sizes the case up to slightly less than the boolit, so when seating it, you should be able to sit the boolit into the case about 1/16th of an inch by hand before seating them. I have a Lyman Multi Expand die set (I forget the full name), it not only expands the case, but similar to the Lee powder thru expanders the Lyman expanders are hollow, and the top of the die is threaded 7/8-14 for a powder measure so you can charge the case with powder at the same time. The die is a set, and comes with interchangeable expanders for most pistol calibers. I also use the one for 32 pistols for loading 30 cal rifle rounds as well.

[Bullet Caster]

^+1. MikeS has the right idea. I have a TL 124 Lee mould for my 9mm and have not had any issues with leading. I don't size the 9mm. I load and shoot them as dropped from the mould. I've set the expander to bell the mouth of the case so that I can get at least 1/16" into the case by hand. This assures me that the boolits are not being swaged down when seating.

When slugging the bbl. I used a non-sized boolit and pushed it through the bore and the fit left nice rifling marks on the slug. I don't even own a .356 sizer. If and when I ever do get a new mould for the 9mm, I'll probably end up with a traditional lube groove mould and purchase a .357 sizer. I think that will be later on down the road. BC

[leadman]

Measure the outside of a fire case in your 9mm then load an unsized boolit in a case and measure it. If you have more than .001" smaller reading on the case with the unsized boolit in it you can use the unsized boolits. Load up 5 or so rounds with a starting load. Fire them and see what happens. If you still have leading buy a stick of a soft lube like Carnuba Red, BAC, or even beeswax and alox. you can smear this on the boolits easily for another test run.

It would be a good idea to pull the dummy round apart and check the boolit diameter to make sure it is not being swaged down during loading.

Also the 9mm will take a fairly hard alloy so if you are using clip -on wheelweights try water quenching from the hot mold to add some hardness to them. It isn't really necessary with a 45 but I do it anyway.

[Unclenick]

Interesting about the 9 mm issues. I've had nothing but good results from TL bullets in .45 and in .38 Special. Sure, the TL Microbands are small, but why should that not mean there is also a problem with ironing them too flat in these other two cases? I do use Lyman type expanders, but I'm wondering if the real issue with the 9 mm version might not be the case design.

If you look at sectioned 9 mm cases (lots of sectioned photos in this document (http://cartridgecollectors.org/documents/Introduction-to-9mm-Luger-Cartridges.pdf)), they have thick walls leaving the head and tapering down as they go forward that in some instances run over half way from the head to the mouth before thinning to case mouth wall thickness. The .45 Auto is similarly thick walled tapering away from the head, but the .45 Auto has only a third of the taper in a new case that the 9 mm does, so when you run it into a single diameter sizing ring, that only narrows the interior near the bullet base an extra thousandth or so from factory new dimensions, where the 9 mm near the head is made almost ten thousandths narrower than factory new. half way down the case where the heavier bullets may seat it might be five thousandths narrower than new, applying more crush to the TL Microbands.

So the question I have is, has anyone using a steel sizing dies with the taper or anyone using the new Redding dual ring carbide dies that are supposed to maintain case taper tried the 9 mm TL bullets? If so, did they have better luck than the previous posts report with them?