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Bigscot
07-19-2005, 09:19 PM
Before I started casting I shot a lot of Win 296 behind Horn XTP's in my .44 SRH. Now that have started casting the RCBS 250 gr Keith I have been shooting only 2400. I have a supply of 296 and would like to try it with the Keith's. Anyone have any suggestions?

Bigscot

Bass Ackward
07-20-2005, 06:12 AM
Before I started casting I shot a lot of Win 296 behind Horn XTP's in my .44 SRH. Now that have started casting the RCBS 250 gr Keith I have been shooting only 2400. I have a supply of 296 and would like to try it with the Keith's. Anyone have any suggestions?

Bigscot


Scott,

I shot a lot of 22 1/2 grains. But the final solutions for you will be based on how hard you made them and what diameter. But you should be in the ball park somewhere.

If you made them hard and big for use in a rifle too, you might have to cut back some. If they are small and hard, you might have to stomp them harder or use a Magnum primer to get a good seal and ignition. Bullet diameter / hardness is my biggest variable. Much more so than powder charge when you get this slow.

fecmech
07-20-2005, 10:00 AM
Bigscot--Back when I shot metallic silhouette I used 25 grs of 296 behind the Lyman "Keith" 429421 and used up many 8 lb. kegs of it. Velocity out of my Ruger SBH was in the high 1300fps range iirc. It was a very accurate load and I don't think I ever lost a target due to the gun or the load. Nick

Bigscot
07-20-2005, 10:02 AM
Bass,
Thanks for the info. I have them sized .431. I bought some commercial Keith's several years ago and shot 22 grs of 2400 which worked well. I also shot some 296 but don't recall the load. With the one's I cast, 19 grs of 2400 shot real well. With the 240 gr XTP's I shoot 22.3 grs of 296. I'll have to work up to your load. I have a question about your comment on 296 being slower than 2400. Is a faster powder better with cast boolits than a slower one?

Bigscot

felix
07-20-2005, 11:12 AM
For your loads you are better off using the slower powders. BlueDot is the fastest of the slower powders that you can use for full power loads. 2400 is an excellent powder, and can be easily adjusted until comfort and accuracy are simultaneously met. So can WC820/AA9. H110/WW296 must be loaded fairly close to top velocity to maintain accuracy. 4227 is always an accurate powder in the 44, but top velocity is seldom achieved unless going for the 300 grainers or above. ... felix

BlueMoon
07-20-2005, 11:14 AM
I have used 24.0grns W296 or H110 with the Keith bullet but have not went over 20.6grns with #2400. I think it depends on mag primer or not. I still use mag primers with 296/110 but have went to a regular primer for the #2400. Depends on burn rate of your lot of powder as to what can be worked up.
But I think W296 is a couple of grains slower than #2400 at least. I have never found a good way to judge pressure with a 44 case like you can with a rifle case.

Bill

9.3X62AL
07-20-2005, 12:45 PM
My response would just repeat Felix's and Blue Moon's great info to a great extent. I have used 24.0 x WW296 with both j-word and cast 240-250 grain bullets with great accuracy in several Ruger revolvers in 44 Magnum. I might back that off 1.0-2.0 grains in a S&W N-frame at first, but would most likely use 19.0 x 2400 is the S&W rather than the 296. 2400 takes kindly to downloading, and 296/H-110 DOES NOT--a thing I prefer to do in S&W 44's. After many years of 44 Magnum shooting, my gun safe is limited to Ruger revolvers now. I am of the view that while S&W's can safely absorb full-tilt loads (240's approaching 1400 FPS), I am not willing to wrassle them much past 1200 FPS. My S&W 44 caliber revolver is a Special.

Bass Ackward
07-20-2005, 03:19 PM
Bass,
Thanks for the info. I have them sized .431. I bought some commercial Keith's several years ago and shot 22 grs of 2400 which worked well. I also shot some 296 but don't recall the load. With the one's I cast, 19 grs of 2400 shot real well. With the 240 gr XTP's I shoot 22.3 grs of 296. I'll have to work up to your load. I have a question about your comment on 296 being slower than 2400. Is a faster powder better with cast boolits than a slower one?

Bigscot

Scott,

The game is called ignition. Most powders need a certain amount of pressure before they burn consistently. This is the problem most encountered by Keith style shooters. That's why a lot of people shoot the faster powders. But cast always seems to do better if you start it off as easy as possible at the "perfect pressure level" to burn your powder. Especially if you want to shoot cheaper, softer mixes.

So are two basic ways to get it. First is to keep increasing powder charge or playing around with crimp, neck tension, primer, etc. until you can get enough pressure up for the slow powder to burn .... consistently.

Or .... you can play with bullet diameter and leave the charge alone for the velocity range you want to operate in. The way I am set up to load, it is way easier for me to play with diameter as one variable instead of dozens of others. At least at first anyway. Then fine tuning later.

Using diameter, I can make almost any powder work above average for me. And the beauty of 296 means that you can go big and as soft as 8 BHN and still shoot well. But Felix, Bill, and Al laid it out for you if you want other choices.

44man
07-20-2005, 04:43 PM
296 will work good with that boolit from 22.5 to 24 grs. Work up for the most accurate load. Be sure to try standard primers as I have found they cut group size by two thirds.
As far as both brands of 4227 go, I would never use them again in the .44 or larger. After years of shooting IHMSA and trying many pounds of the stuff, I found it is very heat sensitive. If shot slowly and the barrel allowed to cool it is very accurate, but if the barrel heats up it will go to hell. Flat primers were common even with light loads. Shooting a match I would hit the first target dead center, the second a little lower and so on until I was hitting the dirt. On the ram line, the first was center and by the time I got to the tenth ram I was 16 clicks higher on the sight and would hit 50 to 60 yd's short. The velocity would increase for each shot as the barrel heated and shots kept hitting lower. I checked it on the chronograph and put the cans in the drawer where they still are. I now have no use for it except to throw a match in a pile of it for fun. What is funny is that it worked great in the .357 maximum with none of these problems. However I don't have anything smaller then the .44 now.
2400 is a good powder and I used many, many pounds of it but it is dirty. I like 296 best. The standard Redhawk likes H110 but the SRH and SBH loves 296.
I know, it is the same powder but H110 is a little different on the burning curve being chosen a little to the side of 296. I could NOT get groups in the standard RH with 296 and I can NOT get groups with H110 in the SRH or SBH. I am talking sub 1" groups at 50 yd's not the run of the mill 2" groups at 25 yd's.
If you guys are shooting less then 50 yd's with the larger calibers, I don't know why you have them.
I was at the range one day when this fella came in and asked if he could put out a target. We said "sure". He put up a large target at about 15 yd's and proceeded to shoot a .44 SBH at it. I never seen a hole in the paper. I asked if I could try his gun. I clicked some elevation on his sight and shooting Creedmore with my loads, I bounced a gallon jug all over the 200 yd. berm. When I looked at him, his eyes were as big as saucers.
I have some pop cans in the basement with holes in them from 200 yd's with the SRH. SUPER GUN!

44man
07-20-2005, 04:49 PM
Forgot to mention, you need tight neck tension with the slow powders. I use the Hornady dies. The crimp will NOT compensate for loose neck tension. A tight crimp will NOT make the powder burn better. I spent years experimenting with crimps. DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME. Put enough crimp on the cases to hold the boolits in under recoil and no more. All a tighter crimp does is to overwork the brass and make them split sooner.

Bigscot
07-20-2005, 06:17 PM
Thanks to all for all the information. I never would have thought this question would bring all the technical answers. I am glad to get them. I would have never though about powder speed and it's affect on cast bullets. I'm getting an education and some load recommdations.
With my loads I use Win LP primers and have been using the Lee crimp die and rcbs dies. The main powders I have used are 296 (the most), Unique, 2400 and some I4227. I have been using 2400 for heavier load and Unique and a little 231 for light loads lately. I have been thinking about trying one of the "Dots". Thanks again for the info and keep it coming.

BS

Bigscot
07-21-2005, 02:48 PM
44man, This may be a stupid question but what is it about the Hornady dies that makes a tighter neck. Are they machined smaller than say RCBS dies?

BS

44man
07-21-2005, 05:13 PM
Bigscot, the expander is the right size to give good neck tension. The only revolver caiber I know of that RCBS has corrected is the .45 Colt. This only by proding from a gun writer. If you use RCBS dies and case tension is not good, the expander can be polished down. Some guys use a .41 expander in the .44.
I can see my grease grooves through the brass and all boolits feel the same when seating. None go in easy.