?? 44 Mag. seating bullets long

[gray wolf]

I hope I explain the correctly,
If I load my 429421 bullets and crimp them in the crimp groove
the front driving band is .140 away from the beginning of the cylinder throat.
I get leading at the spot the taper begins before the actual .432 throat.
Can I seat a bullet backwards and slowly insert it into the chamber until it stops and then use that to determine ware the front band should be ?
In hopes to stop the leading that is happening in the area of the taper at the beginning of the throat. Will it increase pressure to much ?
.140 seems to be quite a jump to the throat, I know if I shot 44 Spl.
it would have a long way also. Would a bullet like the Lyman 429667
( no front band ) R N F P be a better choice ?
I get one or two little bits of lead in the forcing cone and none in the barrel, the cylinders are getting to be a pain to clean, even with chore boy and a Lewis lead remover. throats are .432 bullets are .432 expander plug is .4295 pulled bullets are .432
metal is 50/50 A C WW and Pb. Accuracy is excellent, less than 4" at 130 yards, OK, just under 4"

[44man]

I hope I explain the correctly,
If I load my 429421 bullets and crimp them in the crimp groove
the front driving band is .140 away from the beginning of the cylinder throat.
I get leading at the spot the taper begins before the actual .432 throat.
Can I seat a bullet backwards and slowly insert it into the chamber until it stops and then use that to determine ware the front band should be ?
In hopes to stop the leading that is happening in the area of the taper at the beginning of the throat. Will it increase pressure to much ?
.140 seems to be quite a jump to the throat, I know if I shot 44 Spl.
it would have a long way also. Would a bullet like the Lyman 429667
( no front band ) R N F P be a better choice ?
I get one or two little bits of lead in the forcing cone and none in the barrel, the cylinders are getting to be a pain to clean, even with chore boy and a Lewis lead remover. throats are .432 bullets are .432 expander plug is .4295 pulled bullets are .432
metal is 50/50 A C WW and Pb. Accuracy is excellent, less than 4" at 130 yards, OK, just under 4"
No, boolit jump means nothing at all. Your boolits are too soft. That alloy should be heat treated and have a GC. Try water dropped WW metal only or even harder. The .44 needs no expansion when hunting, just accuracy.
You never mentioned the powder load but you might be slumping.
There should never be lead in any part of the gun.
You have a mechanical problem, not gas cutting so don't look for more obturation. You are already blowing the boolit too large before throat entrance. It is expanding to chamber walls between the case and throat.
Here is the extreme for boolit jump with zero leading.

[gray wolf]

The powder is long shot 10 grains--Unique 9.3 grains--and tite group 6 grains
I get the same thing leading in the taper just before the throat, with a light film on the cylinder walls. The leading seems to fill the taper just before the throat or at least part of it.
I do have some 429244 bullets with a gas check. I don't use them much cause they have a .426 front band and I thought the undersized front band would screw things up. I haven't shot them enough to say if it would help my problem.
I can water drop, it's not a problem.

[runfiverun]

that's worth a try.
you might just have some roughness right there and the antimonial dendrites on the surface of the waterdropped boolits could help polish that area a bit too.
or at least fill the area with antimonial wash instead of leading.
if you see a grey wash show up in that area leave it alone.

[gray wolf]

Will try it.

Thank you

[williamwaco]

Please let us know what happens?


.

[44man]

Tests on deer has shown water dropped or oven hardened 50-50 alloy has had no affect on expansion but helped accuracy. A GC increased accuracy but still not as good as plain WW's.
Faster powders needed a harder boolit to withstand the fast pressure rise.
I have worked with air cooled WW boolits with GC's and found an annealed check made them shoot better, I can't explain that but it did work.
Under throat size has never harmed my accuracy. I found just groove size was enough. My .44 has .4324" throats and a .430" groove yet shoots .430" boolits with extreme accuracy and no leading. Going over throat size has never improved a thing. I have molds and dies to .434", tested them all. I do prefer .432" but my best shooting boolit is still just .430". It shot a 1-5/16" group at 200 yards.
Shoot a good .430" bullet like the XTP or a silhouette bullet and see just how great they shoot. Why not make your alloy perform the same?

[gray wolf]

Why not make your alloy perform the same?
No way to harden my metal cept to water drop, I don't have any tin or lino.
I think what you are saying is to use a hard bullet and load it like a Jacketed bullet.
So why all the hype about bullets fitting the throats ??
My bullets are not mushy soft, but they sure are not as hard as water dropped.
They are a snug fit in the throats, not a hard push through --just snug.
This is the only bug- a- boo left for me to solve.
I have been using Felix lube that a member sent me, my cases are all trimmed to
the same length, and it happens with the unique powder also, and many folks love the unique for 1000 to 1100 FPS loads. I am not saying I disagree with using hard bullets, it just seems that 50/50 WW Pb should work, but it don't for me.
I get the same leading in the first part of the throat even with 900 FPS loads.
The rest of the pistol handles the bullets just fine,
barrel and forcing cone is a 5 Min. clean up.
I have found that crimps still don't open all the way, even with factory J bullets
or annealing my brass. I gave up on that. My gas checks are all annealed and I will try the 429244 Lyman bullet.

[44man]

Just water drop or oven harden them, I think it will improve.
Your fit is good. No need to go larger.
There is no need for harder then WW metal either. I shoot PB, WW boolits in everything but I do water drop. No need for lino or tin. A tad of tin does not hurt though. Depends on your weights, I have never had to add any.
I have shot a lot of 50-50 at 1630 fps with no leading but I hardened them.

[bones37]

I hope I explain the correctly,
If I load my 429421 bullets and crimp them in the crimp groove
the front driving band is .140 away from the beginning of the cylinder throat.
I get leading at the spot the taper begins before the actual .432 throat.
Can I seat a bullet backwards and slowly insert it into the chamber until it stops and then use that to determine ware the front band should be ?
In hopes to stop the leading that is happening in the area of the taper at the beginning of the throat. Will it increase pressure to much ?
.140 seems to be quite a jump to the throat, I know if I shot 44 Spl.
it would have a long way also. Would a bullet like the Lyman 429667
( no front band ) R N F P be a better choice ?
I get one or two little bits of lead in the forcing cone and none in the barrel, the cylinders are getting to be a pain to clean, even with chore boy and a Lewis lead remover. throats are .432 bullets are .432 expander plug is .4295 pulled bullets are .432
metal is 50/50 A C WW and Pb. Accuracy is excellent, less than 4" at 130 yards, OK, just under 4"


I also have been having the same exact issues in my 44's. :coffeecom

[Maven]

"Can I seat a bullet backwards and slowly insert it into the chamber until it stops and then use that to determine ware the front band should be? In hopes to stop the leading that is happening in the area of the taper at the beginning of the throat. Will it increase pressure too much?" ...gray wolf

Gray wolf & bones37, You CAN seat a CB backwards to determine OAL. By seating a CB out farther (longer OAL), you are increasing the volume of the cartridge thereby reducing pressure. Unfortunately, seating a CB longer, as 44man points out in post #12, may prevent you from roll crimping that CB.

[44man]

But where is the crimp groove? Are you going to crimp somewhere else?

[gray wolf]

I am well up to speed at what MAVEN said,
No I would not crimp someplace else, Just thinking if a mold were to be made
would a long front band be any help, but then the weight would increase.
Sometimes I post and answer my own questions, I am on my way to making my bullets harder. This is the last bit of problem solving to be done with this pistol.
If others can do it--so can I.
The only last thing I will say, well not the last I hope, is this.
my chambers are very smooth and polished from the factory, my throats are smooth and polished also. But the small spot that has the gradual reduction just before the cylinder throat, the part that leads up--has small circular rings from how they machined it. Like tree growth rings the way the forcing cone HAD before they smooth them out for me.

[44man]

That could be the problem. Power lapping would help but you are looking at a lot of shots from each chamber, not real good for the bore.
I think it would be better to keep the area clean and shoot more.
I can't figure any way to polish just that spot.

[bones37]

Gray wolf, Maven, 44man, I am going to try water dropping my boolits to see if it makes a difference. I too am using plain ACWW's, and for powders, unique, titegroup, bullseye, blue dot and 2400. The two guns in question are a new model Ruger Superblackhawk, and Smith 629-6. Ruger has 432 throats, while the Smith has 4295"throats. I am sizing the boolit to 432 in the Ruger. I've shot some of the 432's in the Smith, but it leads worst in the areas mentioned by Gray wolf in his original post. Thanks guys. Bones 37

[44man]

Gray wolf, Maven, 44man, I am going to try water dropping my boolits to see if it makes a difference. I too am using plain ACWW's, and for powders, unique, titegroup, bullseye, blue dot and 2400. The two guns in question are a new model Ruger Superblackhawk, and Smith 629-6. Ruger has 432 throats, while the Smith has 4295"throats. I am sizing the boolit to 432 in the Ruger. I've shot some of the 432's in the Smith, but it leads worst in the areas mentioned by Gray wolf in his original post. Thanks guys. Bones 37
Kind of a pain to need different size boolits but that is the way it goes.
Everything looks good but I would steer away from Bullseye, too much initial thump.
Ruger has tough metal but it will smooth out by shooting. A few hundred jacketed can help, get .430" bullets. Then you don't have to clean lead out so a boolit touches steel.

[bones37]

Kind of a pain to need different size boolits but that is the way it goes.
Everything looks good but I would steer away from Bullseye, too much initial thump.
Ruger has tough metal but it will smooth out by shooting. A few hundred jacketed can help, get .430" bullets. Then you don't have to clean lead out so a boolit touches steel.

I am most likely going to have the throats reamed on the Smith to 431". I know its strange, but I use the bullseye in my 45 acp with the same exact alloy(ACWW) with no leading or issues at all. I thought that the alloy would work in my 44's as well, since I would be 'duplicating' the velocities of a 45 acp in the 44.(Vel. from 750 to 950 fps)

[RobS]

I am most likely going to have the throats reamed on the Smith to 431". I know its strange, but I use the bullseye in my 45 acp with the same exact alloy(ACWW) with no leading or issues at all. I thought that the alloy would work in my 44's as well, since I would be 'duplicating' the velocities of a 45 acp in the 44.(Vel. from 750 to 950 fps)

A lot less things going on in a closed chamber (45 Auto). Revolver boolits have to go through a cylinder throat, jump cylinder and plow into the forcing cone which funnels the boolit into the lands of the barrel. All this while optimally not skidding or at least not so much that the skid cant be controlled/slowed by the time the base band engraves the rifling. If the base band is still skidding the rifling the accuracy will never be very good.

[RobS]

gray wolf:

Sounds like you have some roughness in the taper of the cylinder. Shooting will help no doubt smoothing things out. Many Rugers are a bit rough even in the forcing cones and smooth out with time. A harder/tougher boolit may help and may also help with accuracy as well since you are working with a quicker powder. Do you still have this same leading issue when you shoot slower powders with these air cooled boolits? I ask because you mention the leading fills just part of the taper and I wonder if the boolits are hitting so hard they are slumping and filling this part of the cylinder as the boolit makes way into the cylinder throats.

[gray wolf]

Sounds like you have some roughness in the taper of the cylinder. I can see little rings in the taper just before the throat.Shooting will help no doubt smoothing things out.ain't happened yet Many Rugers are a bit rough even in the forcing cones and smooth out with time.Ruger took care of the rough forcing cone, so no leading there. A harder/tougher boolit may help and may also help with accuracy as wellthe pistol is very accurate, I can hit a clay bird at 129 yards since you are working with a quicker powder. Do you still have this same leading issue when you shoot slower powders with these air cooled boolits?The condition is the same with 6 grains of tite group, 8.5 and 9.3 of unique, and 10 grains of long shot. I ask because you mention the leading fills just part of the taper Yes that's the spot, with a little gray wash in the throat it's selfand I wonder if the boolits are hitting so hard they are slumping and filling this part of the cylinder as the boolit makes way into the cylinder throats.That is possible, someone is sending me a little foundry type to add to my metal, I will try it at 15-1 and 20-1 added to my metal, but I know that will through my sizing off. the harder metal will probly spring back a little and give me a bigger bullet. 9.3 or ten grains of unique seems to be a great load for most folks, 10 gr. of long shot shoots better and is flatter shooting out past 100 yards. I just don't have the means to get other powder. My lube is Felix lube, I get no leading in the barrel, the forcing cone has a tiny streak or two after 100 or so rounds.
RobS is offline Report Post Reply With Quote

[bones37]

I fired up the pot this mornin, and water dropped roughly 50 boolits. Same alloy as before. I loaded some up with unique, and tested. So far, so good, but I would like to run more rounds thru to verify that was the problem.

[runfiverun]

give those water dropped boolits a couple three weels to fully harden, and to settle down for more consistency in the batch.

[gray wolf]

give those water dropped boolits a couple three weels to fully harden, and to settle down for more consistency in the batch.
Will do the same here.

[bones37]

give those water dropped boolits a couple three weels to fully harden, and to settle down for more consistency in the batch.

Will do the same here as well.

[44man]

A lot less things going on in a closed chamber (45 Auto). Revolver boolits have to go through a cylinder throat, jump cylinder and plow into the forcing cone which funnels the boolit into the lands of the barrel. All this while optimally not skidding or at least not so much that the skid cant be controlled/slowed by the time the base band engraves the rifling. If the base band is still skidding the rifling the accuracy will never be very good.
Exactly! Good post.
The revolver is the hardest to work with.
Then letting water dropped or oven hardened boolits age a little is also the way to go. They will harden and expand a little faster then air cooled. Even a week helps. I never load fresh boolits.
Yes boolits with antimony will grow too with age. If I size my .475 boolits to .476" they will grow to .478" with time. Smaller calibers grow less. Most guns see no difference until a round can't be chambered.
I have had to size some again after aging and it has not changed accuracy.
Bones, slug the bore. Many S&W's have .429" grooves. Don't go too large with throats. Hard to measure with 5 lands and grooves.
The ideal throat will be .0005" to .001" over groove. I do get larger throats to shoot but most is using boolits groove size or a tad more. I have never found a reason to go over throat or way over groove. Even a very large boolit of the wrong alloy can skid rifling.
Stop skid and slump. Maintain GG's and boolit profile for the whole shot.

[bones37]

Exactly! Good post.
The revolver is the hardest to work with.
Then letting water dropped or oven hardened boolits age a little is also the way to go. They will harden and expand a little faster then air cooled. Even a week helps. I never load fresh boolits.
Yes boolits with antimony will grow too with age. If I size my .475 boolits to .476" they will grow to .478" with time. Smaller calibers grow less. Most guns see no difference until a round can't be chambered.
I have had to size some again after aging and it has not changed accuracy.
Bones, slug the bore. Many S&W's have .429" grooves. Don't go too large with throats. Hard to measure with 5 lands and grooves.
The ideal throat will be .0005" to .001" over groove. I do get larger throats to shoot but most is using boolits groove size or a tad more. I have never found a reason to go over throat or way over groove. Even a very large boolit of the wrong alloy can skid rifling.
Stop skid and slump. Maintain GG's and boolit profile for the whole shot.

I slugged the bore on the Smith just a few weeks ago, I realize that it's hard to measure the 5 lands and grooves, but my mitutoyo micrometer read 429", or at least that is the best measurement that I could obtain. I also slugged all 6 throats, the smallest was 4285, the largest was 429".

[44man]

I slugged the bore on the Smith just a few weeks ago, I realize that it's hard to measure the 5 lands and grooves, but my mitutoyo micrometer read 429", or at least that is the best measurement that I could obtain. I also slugged all 6 throats, the smallest was 4285, the largest was 429".
I would lap them until a .430" bullet slips through with your thumb. I lapped many cylinders and it always increased accuracy.
It is done the same as opening a Lee die. Just the feel of a bullet in throats can get them exact. It will also round out an oblong throat. Veral's book explains it well.
Go slow, wipe and check often.
I use a variable speed battery drill.

[gray wolf]

Since most of the corrective measures we have been talking about revolve around harder bullets---Let me run this up the pole.
A member has sent me some foundry type, about 10# Man it's hard stuff.
What if I cast --- say 30-40 bullets using the pure foundry type, I can put them through my .430 sizing die and they will probly bump up to about .431 (maybe?)
Load and shoot them as I do without changing anything else but the metal.
If the leading in the cylinders goes away that will prove it's the metal.
Then I can add the type slowly to my metal till I reach the hardness needed.
Or should I just try the foundry metal at say 30/1 and bump it up from there ?
Pure foundry can't hurt anything--right ?
Just an idea and just sayin.

[gray wolf]

Your post is confusing ? I thought you were an advocate of hard bullets sized .430 and loaded like J word bullets.
[QUOTE] seen your dimensions and don't know if harder will help.They are , bore .4295 throats .432
You are using throats as a size die instead of a guide. I thought it in reverse ? I use the cylinder throats as a guide, .432 and size to that, .432 You might just be scraping the boolits.possible I guess
I bet if you lap or get them reamed, you can go back to air cooled and even softer.
What would they be lapped to ? or reamed to what ? larger ? [/QUOTE[

[44man]

I DID confuse you so reverse what I said. I was responding to Bones about dimensions and lapping and I got screwed up and used his dimensions for you. Sorry, I will delete the last post.
Do what you were going to do and just try harder.

[gray wolf]

Thank you for clearing that up, It's why I don't like Hijacking threads.
Sometimes one persons problem is so close to another persons that we just can't help chiming in. NO harm done--none.

[44man]

Thank you for clearing that up, It's why I don't like Hijacking threads.
Sometimes one persons problem is so close to another persons that we just can't help chiming in. NO harm done--none.
Thanks.
Consider my age! [smilie=1: I had the same problem all my life, even with math in school. By the time I got to page 3, I already forgot the formula on page 1!
That means I need to read the whole thread over so I don't screw up. :roll:

[bones37]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to confuse or Hijack anyones thread.

[44man]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to confuse or Hijack anyones thread.
It's OK, I was at fault.
My mind has been too occupied working with an old Rem 788, 308. Had to fit a new recoil pad, free float and work loads.
Without changing the powder charges I have it down to 9/16" at 100.
I was seating bullets when I answered. Not a single accuracy load will fit the magazine! [smilie=l:
Your problem fits in, I just need to pay more attention.

[gray wolf]

Originally Posted by bones37 View Post
Sorry guys, didn't mean to confuse or Hijack anyones thread.
I wish that was the biggest problem we all had. Fact is it's no problem.

[runfiverun]

thread drift around here????
whaaaat.
i member one time we went from revolver bbl gap measurements.... to dual overhead cam phaser timing for the exhaust valves on ford engines.
in something like two-three posts.

[44man]

We are friends and even over coffee or a drink, subjects change.
Most is from being married forever. I was trying to hear the TV last night and the wife was rattling on and on about something blotting out the TV. I had to ask her what in the world are you talking about. I never heard a single word! Even eating dinner and reading the paper she goes on and on so us guys stick everything in a narrow portion of the brain and all else is fuzz.
What I hate is when she talks with food in her mouth or starts a subject, stutters, extends what she was going to say because the thought left her or something. [smilie=1: OUT WITH IT WOMAN!
I know you guys understand.

[gray wolf]

I know you guys understand.
Sometimes I just shake my head and keep pulling the handle.

[blackthorn]

Yesterday morning I was sitting here reading this forum and wifey was sitting at her computer as well. She said "I just heard a shot". "Me too" I said. Her:--"How come you can hear a shot that was likely miles away up the mountain and you can't hear me when I talk?"---OOPS!!!

[gray wolf]

Your toast now.

[MikeS]

No, shots are at a different frequency than speech! If you were in the military you could explain it as needing to hear shots became a life saving ability, and so is ingrained in you. Hey, that explanation might help.