Lee 452-200-SWC tears intead of punch a clean hole

[R1ch]

Hi all!

First, thanks for this forum, I've been reading it for a while, but now that I have a question, I finally registered. So thanks for sharing your thoughts here in the past and of course, in the future. :)

I've been casting for a year or two. At this point i'm only casting Lee 452-200-SWC using their 6 cavity mold using WW to feed my bullseye shooting. It works well. I have no issues dropping clean boolits.

I also size (.452) and lube (orange magic) these and load them with 3.5 of bullseye for my bullseye league.

Here is my dillema, I haven't been able to get a clean hole when the bullet hits the paper (50ft downrange, NRA standard slow, timed and rapid targets). I get a ragged hole when the bullet hits the target, it tends to tear, instead of punch a round hole. It almost seems like the cone at the front of the SWC is a bit long, and that causes the paper to stretch a bit so it tears before the shoulder of the wad cutter portion hits the paper.

My fellow shooters at our bullseye league hate scoring my targets! This same thing happens if I shoot these out of a 1911, or out of a S&W 625JM revolver.

I can see a grease ring on the target that seems to tell me that the boolit is hitting the target square and is not a keyhole. But the tearing makes it hard to score. The hole is there, it's just that it's surrounded by large tears also. Heck, a 230RN seems to make a smaller hole (taking the tearing into account). So what's the point of me using SWCs if they make such a ragged hole? ;)

Others shoot full wadcutters (.38), and they punch nice round holes that are a pleasure to score. Those that shoot RN bullets of various types don't make large ragged holes like I do.

Someone suggested that I need more velocity (3.8 or more of bullseye), but I've had this problem even when I was using a heavier load.

Is this normal for these lee cast boolits? Is there a way to get these 452-200-SWC boolits to punch a better (cleaner) hole? Am I doing something fundimentally wrong?

Thanks for any help and wisdom on this.

[mpmarty]

Welcome to the insanity.

how do you crimp? is the forward "cutting edge" of the boolit intact?

[R1ch]

I use a taper crimp (Hornady die), and the forward edge of the boolit looks just fine, about the same as it is cast.

[Wayne Smith]

Put a backer on your target.

[runfiverun]

yep, stretch the target tight and have it seated flat.
try a piece of cardboard and tape across the whole edge then brush it flat and tape the other side.

[gray wolf]

What Run said

[fecmech]

That's what they make the plastic overlay scoring rings for!

[Silvercreek Farmer]

The few commercial cast 240gr semi-wad cutters I tried in my 44 tore ragged holes in a poorly supported target. I didn't really mind too much as I wasn't scoring, but when I switched to a RNFP, they cut the nicest full caliber holes anyone could want.

[40Super]

I use a H&G68 (the original, not a copy) bullet thats has the little shorter nose, but I always hung a bunch of cloths pins from the bottom of my scoring target. it keeps the target nice and tight. even when the big hole is out, when a bullet just hits an edge , it'll cut the partial circle so you can count all the shots.
Is the shoulder on the Lee actually sharp or is it one of those that is chamfered or radiused? Maybe a different brand of "copy" is needed for comp.

[tomf52]

I experience the same results with that same bullet and any load of Bullseye unless I tape the target tight to a backer board. Issue is then resolved.

[Recluse]

I cast that boolit, a LOT, as it's my second favorite boolit in the inventory. But, I load it with a minimum of 4.3 grains of Bullseye. The only time I have tearing is with flimsy targets or really thin paper targets.

You can get you a .50¢ posterboard and clothespin your target to it just for tauntness and get nice, neat holes.

But low velocity and flimsy target combinations will almost always make for ragged tears.

:coffee:

[Forrest r]

I premake a bunch of targets at a time using cardboard & wallpaper paste. I use these tagets for rifle, pistol, smallbore & 10m pellet pistol/rifle. I'ts easy to do, cheap & any boolit style/type can be scored.

On a side note; used to have the same problem until I bought a MiHec #68 clone. Those boolits will cut clean holes in 20# printer paper on up.

[captaint]

I use a cardboard backer and spray glue the target to the backer. That'll cure your ills. enjoy mike

[R1ch]

Thanks for all the ideas guys, or should I say, backer ideas! I'll try it!

Perhaps first will be to try some sort of weight at the bottom of the target. Because adding a backer will probably cost more than the targets themselves! LOL

But I wonder because no one else has this issue with our targets, just me!

I still think it's because of the length of the cone on the Lee cast boolit. It seems like the cone stretches and breaks the paper long before the corner of the shoulder ever reaches the paper to cut it.

The other shooters that use a full wadcutter get's nice round holes, and I think he's using lighter loads than I am.

Others with FMJ round nose make cleaner holes!

Thursday night is bullseye night for me, so I'll try something then.

Here are a picture of my loads along with some of my cast boolits, both sized/lubed and as cast/water dropped:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_2584550885ea082ad2.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7150)

The loaded rounds don't look much different as cast, or sized/lubed. I don't see the sharpest edges at the corner of the shoulder, but having only one of these molds, I'm not sure what I should expect. If anyone has the same Lee mold as I do, I'd love to see how your boolits come out.

Thanks for looking!

[40Super]

Them are kind of long, like the Lyman version, only yours have a bigger radius on the nose .It is probably stretching out the hole before the shoulder gets there and getting the tears started. Otherwise it's a good reason to buy a Balisti-cast H&G or Miha mold :bigsmyl2:

[R1ch]

I found this picture comparing the Lee, H&G 68 and the Mihec and lee boolits:

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1438/bulletsr.jpg

It seems like the Lee has a round base and not as sharp of a shoulder.

The Lee seems to have a slightly narrower cone, so it may be a bit longer to create the same 200gr mass.

But they all seem to have a relatively long cone, or am I mistaken?

[Blammer]

I suspect your target needs a good piece of cardboard behind it. If the target is "free" hanging" that is what will cause it to rip.

a Backer is nothing more than a fresh piece of cardboard. :)

[Blammer]

if the hole is torn into the bullseye don't that count?

[R1ch]

Unfortunately, tears don't count for a score! It's the bullet hole that does! At least that's how they score at my club! ;)

[Griz44mag]

Why are you water dropping 45 auto rounds? Seems pretty pointless for something that low pressure, especially since you are shooting them so softly.
Speed those pills up, put a good backer on them.
I buy bundles of thin cardboard (200 at a time) from Quality targets and they are pretty cheap.
If you have a local box company, they will cut to size for you as well, and if you buy a good quantity, price is pretty low.

[40Super]

No they score just the bullet dia, and go by the edge of the hole. SWC's and full wadcutters add points because of the sharp and max hole size for the caliber. Our place supplies the actuall scoring targets that are made from a thicker construction paper, they tend to not want to tear.

[runfiverun]

the H&G 68 clone i had is shaped different than the one pictured.
it had a longer thinner nose,kinda like the lee but the nose was flatter and the base more angular.
i went to the lyman wth it's stubbier flatter more meplated nose,sharper shoulder and flatter angeled base.

[Jack Stanley]

I don't know if my experience with a forty-four will be of any help but here goes . When I used to shoot compitition with the model twenty-nine I tried two differant styles of wadcutter . I started with the Lyman "oil can" ( I forget the mold number ) and then I bought An H&G number 107b that had a little button nose on it .

Both styles when run along at I would guess above seven hundred and fifty feet per second would cut about any paper clean . But whan I slowed them down , think four point two grains Bullseye in a magnum case , the paper would tear every time .

Jack