45-2.4 Finally Gets A Chance To Bark

[WBH]

I finally got around to shooting my Pedersoli 45-2.4 today for the first time. I have a 45-2.1 Bodine from them that is a fine shooter, but somehow I have just got around to shooting the Quigley. Here are the results:

100 yards

Buffalo Arms Stretched 45-2.1 RP cases
CCI 200 Primers
73 gr (by weight) Swiss 1 1/2
Case weight 188 grains
Lyman 457125 20:1 Bullet @ 518 grains sized .459
COL 3.184 (just into the rifling)

GROUP 2 5/8 x 1 5/8 (first shot fouler was 14" right of group) no sight
adjustment

200 yards

Buffalo Arms Stretched 45-2.1 RP cases
Federal 215 Primers
77 gr (by weight) Swiss 1 1/2
Case weight 188 grains
Lyman 457125 20:1 Bullet @ 518 grains sized .459
COL 3.084 (.100 off the rifling)

GROUP 6 1/8 x 3 7/8 (barrel already fouled, no fouling shot)

All shots had 2 long blows of the blow tube, with no cleaning between shots. Fouling was soft with no leading in the 34" barrel.

I believe that the 200 yard group would have been tighter with the bullets seated further out with less compression on the swiss. Primer differences might also play a part.

All and all, I am happy with "Tatanka Ini's" first outing.

To be continued...............

[montana_charlie]

Seems like a good start.
So...what do you plan to change to tighten up the 100 yd. group?
CM

[WBH]

For the 100 a 405gr bullet might be better. But using the 457125, I will try the usual........

1) Use different primers
2) Vary the COL by maybe .010 at a time.
3) Anneal all the cases and trim to 2.390
4) Uniform primer holes and pockets

Any other suggestions?

It could be (heaven forbid) operator error...........

[montana_charlie]

I never mess with more than one factor at a time, and that is usually just the powder charge...to begin with.
CM

[JeffinNZ]

Don't be afraid to run a bit of compression on the Swiss. Despite what you may hear Swiss DOES shoot well with compression. In my .38-303 I shoot 60gr of 1.5Fg and run 0.35 inch (no, that's not a typo) on it and the result is nigh on MOA accuracy. The Swiss 3Fg does not respond so well however an 50gr with no compression produces the same accuracy and velocity as the above 60gr load of 1.5Fg.

[WBH]

CM.....I use the same methods I have been using for smokeless for the past 30 or so years. I NEVER change more than one componant or measurement, while keeping all the others a constant.

It takes a lot of work and ammo, but sometimes you get lucky and hit the magic combo early in the the developement.

Anyway.....I'm retired.........it keeps me busy and thinking.

Hopefully I can get some loaded up and shoot next week to narrow it down.

[montana_charlie]

WBH,
Don't get the idea that I consider myself an expert on BPCR. And, I am totally unfamiliar with the characteristics of Swiss powder. So, for those two reasons, I really can't suggest which factor change you should explore first.

In your opener, you showed 73 grains of Swiss for the 100 yd. group...and 77 for the 200 yd. group. That act caused confusion in my think pot.

Since I always play with powder charge first, I would have fired both loads at a hundred yard target, to get a straight comparison between the two.
I'm sure you would like to see a tight 100 yard group - where other variables are less of a factor - but doing it your way (if I was the loader/shooter) I'd have no firm opinion about which powder charge is closer to correct.

I guess my first reply was a disguised suggestion that you work on one distance at a time in the beginning. It was not intended to challenge your expertise or experience.
CM

[WBH]

CM........the older I get, the more I realize the less I am an expert at. The wonderful thing about these forums is the ability to pick everyones brains for new ideas. It will be a sad day when I stop learning.

I have no idea why the 200 yard load had 77 vs the 73 grains of powder. I did load them some time ago so I must have some idea in mind.

I will take your suggestion and duplicate the 100 yard load first and see how it performs on the 200 yard target. Then begin to play with different COL's and the same powder charge, and then same COL's with different powder charges.

That'll keep me busy for a while.

What kind of cattle do you raise? I have a small herd of Shorthorn/Hereford here in Ohio.

[John Boy]

All shots had 2 long blows of the blow tube, with no cleaning between shots.
WBH ... there was a famous old timer by the name of Harry Pope who also knew a thing or two about shooting the rifles he made. His BPRC 200yd Offhand record still stands unbeaten today.

Anyway, his recommendation for blow tubing was:
4 -5 times on a cold day
10-12 times on a hot day

Give it a try - might help tightening up your groups

[Cimarron Red]

WBH,

I agree with JB that more blow tubing may be in order. But, I went to wiping between shots two years ago, and I'm pleased with the results. As for compressing Swiss, in my .45-70 I currently shoot 69 grains of 2F compressed .250" under the Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet (542 grains.)

Do you use an over-powder wad? What is your lube?

[WBH]

With regard to the blow tube.....

I am using 2-3 20 second blows. There is so much moisture in the tubing that I am afraid the barrel will have water actually in it.

Lube...................

It is my own recipe. Other board members have used it with good results.
Most times better than the house-hold name brands. I can push a patch through after 15 shots with little effort and all residue is soft. Lube star is present and well formed.

Wad.............

King .060 Veggie

[Cimarron Red]

WBH,

Re: water in the blow tube. When using the tube (and I still do when wiping is impractical), I have a home made cartridge block that holds my 5 record shot cartridges for BP silhouette. In the base of the block, I installed a 10-32 threaded insert to hold a .45 caliber cleaning swab in the upright position. After each use of the blow tube, I slip the case end over the swab where it stays until the next blow. All moisture drains into the swab.

Re: wads. Though many shooters use veggie, I've fund that my rifle prefers .060 LDPE.

[WBH]

CR....what a good idea. I had thought of using the "fat" pipe cleaners, but I like the idea of the "holder" better. Most times it ends up laying on the ground or bench. Who knows what is lurking there!!!

[montana_charlie]

I will take your suggestion and duplicate the 100 yard load first and see how it performs on the 200 yard target. Then begin to play with different COL's and the same powder charge, and then same COL's with different powder charges.
I don't play much with the COL. I want the load to perform well with the bullet just touching the lands, and that's the way I start them. If, while shooting a string, it takes a lot of thumb to make them chamber, I shorten up a little. After that change, I usually don't vary the COL anymore (although maybe I should).

Can you really blow air down a blowtube for a full twenty seconds? I'd probably be unconcious before getting to fifteen...

What kind of cattle do you raise? I have a small herd of Shorthorn/Hereford here in Ohio.
Polled Hereford cows bred to Angus makes a black baldy calf that the buyers are happy to take...and like their mothers, they are rarely ill-temperd.
I am fortunate in having a neighbor who is a breeder of Polled Hereford, so I can get excellent beef animals by taking 'culls' from him...and all of my bulls have come out of the Stevenson's bloodlines.
CM

[WBH]

Yup, it's true. 20 seconds with no problem. I probably could go 30 (never tried).
I guess I just have big lungs and don't smoke anymore.

I know what you mean about even tempered cattle. I have no use for ill tempered ones. We used to have some Chiannia mixed in our herd years ago. Never again...those big beasts will kill you.

My Shorthorn Bull is as docile as a puppy dog. He puts up far less fuss when getting his vaccines than the cows.

Thanks for the suggestions. Now to load some up.

[Cimarron Red]

WBH,

A small observation -- if you were to shoot NRA BPCR silhouettes and blow for the 40 to 60 seconds you mention, you would not likely have enough time to complete a 5 shot record string. But if time is not a major factor in the shooting you're doing now, there's no problem.

[WBH]

CR......I guess it is a good thing I don't compete. I wonder how Harry Pope did 10-12 blows on a hot day in competition and still won a record?? Maybe he won it on a cold day with only 4-5 blows between shots. ;-)

[Cimarron Red]

WBH,

In my limited experience with Shuetzen matches (one shoot) and a fair amount of reading, they are far less time-constrained than silhouette matches. In the one I shot in, relays were one hour long or until all shooters were finished. And this was to shoot sighters and as few as ten record shots, though often more. Also the shoot lasted Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and shooters could compete on all three days if they chose. So Harry Pope could blow until his heart's content and not bump up against a buzzing timer.

[Yance]

I finally got around to shooting my Pedersoli 45-2.4 today for the first time. I have a 45-2.1 Bodine from them that is a fine shooter, but somehow I have just got around to shooting the Quigley. Here are the results:

All and all, I am happy with "Tatanka Ini's" first outing.

To be continued...............

A couple of things I picked up from (the late) Spence Wolf's book on BP carts for Springfield rifles were;

Enlarge the flash hole to .096" (#41 drill, or 3/32" if you do't have a #41, only .003" smaller), and the use of Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers. I have only tried the WLRM in my Trapdoor and .45-2.1 Sharps, and a buddy's Cimm Billy Dixon 45-2.4.

I'm sure my groups will improve after I receive my Pedersoli USA 406 sight from Brownell's.<G> Already changed out my blade for a Lyman 17A Globe.

I been trying to run head to head comparisons of Goex FFg to Goex Cartridge. So far too little shootin' has been done to draw any conclusions on anything but fouling. The Cart grade fouls "noticably" less, but not "considreably" less. I have seen average velocity drop with Cart grade and will probably work up to FFg's velocities for a more "even" comparison.

[montana_charlie]

things I picked up from (the late) Spence Wolf's book on BP carts for Springfield rifles were;
Enlarge the flash hole to .096" (#41 drill, or 3/32" if you do't have a #41, only .003" smaller), and the use of Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers.
As you know, things change, Yance.

BPCR shooters still consider Wolf's book to be an important learning tool, but those two steps have fallen out of favor. Now, it is common to 'uniform' primer holes, and to 'deburr' them, but few people will actually enlarge them, anymore.

As for primers...it is pretty rare to see a recommendation for magnum LR primers these days. Those who are extremely technical about their loads have mostly gone to Large Pistol primers in an effort to get less brissance. Some go so far as to obtain (or modify) brass with shallower primer pockets just for this purpose...so as to avoid breech block damage.

As it happens, I am using CCI 250M primers, but only because I have a large supply of them. At this time, the only component changes I adopt for 2.4 loads are bullet and charge variations. When roughly half of these primers have been expended, I expect to switch to standard LR primers. That will be my first component change intended to 'tune' a specific load.
CM

[Cimarron Red]

I agree with MC concerning enlarging flash holes. I did so with my first lot of WW 45-70 brass some years ago, and I regretted having done so. Then last year I bought a flash hole swage die from Kermit Hoke and restored those flash holes to original size. As for magnum primers, I don't recall anyone I shoot with in BPCRS using them. I've been loading pistol primers for about 6 years now.

[Yance]

As you know, things change, Yance.

BPCR shooters still consider Wolf's book to be an important learning tool, but those two steps have fallen out of favor. Now, it is common to 'uniform' primer holes, and to 'deburr' them, but few people will actually enlarge them, anymore.

As for primers...it is pretty rare to see a recommendation for magnum LR primers these days. Those who are extremely technical about their loads have mostly gone to Large Pistol primers in an effort to get less brissance. Some go so far as to obtain (or modify) brass with shallower primer pockets just for this purpose...so as to avoid breech block damage.
CM

Interesting.

Since I started loading BP for my 1884 Trapdoor and had a borrowed copy of Spence's book, with all his R&D work I figured that was the way to go.

Now that I'm feeding a couple of Pedersoli Sharps rifles and a Rolling block I wouldn't mind saving that extra work.<G>

I'll have to give a batch of Winchester "unmodified" cases a try with WLP primers. Now to figure out what to do with 3000 WLRM.

[montana_charlie]

I'll have to give a batch of Winchester "unmodified" cases a try with WLP primers. Now to figure out what to do with 3000 WLRM.
Try the pistol primers if you must, but also try standard Large Rifle.
If you find a dependable load that uses LR, try the same load with some WLRM's.
You may find the difference to be 'within tolerance'.

The theory behind using the pistol primers is to ignite the charge without having the bullet start forward prematurely, from the pressure of the primer explosion.

Increased neck tension, crimp, or setting the bullet hard into the lands are different ways of acheiving retardation of bullet movement. How any of those affect your accuracy is the question.

The problem with pistol primers is their length. If you don't seat them in the bottom of the pocket, the strike of the firing pin is 'cushioned' when the primer is driven forward at firing.
That can cause shot-to-shot variations in ignition.

Once the primer does get bottomed (at loading or during firing) it sets back against the breech face when the charge goes off. That primer setback can beat a 'dimple' in the breechblock right around the firing pin hole.

Some blocks seem to be hard enough to avoid the dimple, some guys have a hardened steel bushing installed in that area. Others go for brass cases which have pistol-depth primer pockets.

I'm sure you could try some pistol primers without detectable damage. But, if you decide to go that route permanently, you should probably consider 'the rest of the story'.

Here is a short discussion on the subject that is currently in progress. http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9046
CM

[Boz330]

For the last couple of years I have been putting a disc of newsprint over the flash hole before I add powder. I use a WLRP and have tried magnum and pistol primers both with and without the newsprint and the WLRPs seem to give the best groups. I use Swiss powder and I'm sure that can make a difference. Goex is another critter altogether.
The bigest problem that I have is this damn working thing getting in the way of going to the range, which is in my back yard. It's not lighted yet.
Good luck!! the possible combinations seem to be endless even though there is only one powder.

Bob

[WBH]

NEW UPDATE...



200 yards

Buffalo Arms Stretched 45-2.1 RP cases/Starline 45-90 cases
CCI 200 Primers
73 gr (by weight/then volume) Swiss 1 1/2
Case weight 188 grains R-P/ 204 grains Starline
Case length 2.398
Lyman 457132 and Victory Trenk design 20:1 Bullet sized .459
COL 3.262 (into the rifling)
Waters .060 veggie wad
My lube.

GROUP 3 3/8 x 3 1/8 (both bullets shot to same POI)

All shots had 3 long blows of the blow tube, with no cleaning between shots. Fouling was soft with no leading in the 34" barrel.
All shots were from benchrest crosssticks

I loaded some 457658 I will try next week, but the above looks like a winner. Now to see it work out to the 600 yard mark.

[Boz330]

Looks like a keeper, 1 1/2 MOA ain't bad if it will hold up on out at 600yds. Why don't you bring it out to the next BPCRS match? The more the merrier.

Bob

[WBH]

Just another note.

The Victory bullet COL was 3.240 and the Lyman COL was 3.262
Both hard into the rifling.

Boz...I'll try to get there on the 8th.

[Cimarron Red]

WBH,

Looks good! Did you compress the powder? If so, how much?

CR

[WBH]

CR....compression was .168 average on the last mentioned loads.

[montana_charlie]

Just an observation...

The PGT bullet is said to have a little better BC than the old standby designs (such as the Postell), and your results seem to bear that out.

You sent both bullets downrange with the same amount of powder, and they both hit the same POI.
Since the PGT is 20 or 30 grains heavier, that seems to indicate it 'flew better'...even though it was probably going a bit slower.

It will be interesting to see if the PGT starts to inch above the Postell at longer ranges, or (even more indicative) if it is less affected by wind than the 457132.
CM

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I am shooting standard WLR primers in all of my BP rifles, including the newest arrival, a 38-90. Seems to work, 1-1.5moa and the 38-90 is lighting up the chrono at 1488fps with 80gr of Elephant 3Fg compressed .250" with a 370gr (20:1) Victory/DanT design. Bullet is 1.491" long, and I had to fit a Krieger 1:12" twist for it.
Load is accurate, but I am wrestling with fouling. I shoot a 50/50 mix of bear tallow and beeswax. Any thoughts on a better lube?

Rich
SRSS

[Cimarron Red]

Idaho Sharpshooter,

I've been using this lube since the beginning of this shooting season, and I'm very happy with it. I wipe between shots for all the stick animals, but I still blow-tube for the chicken. So far, even with the current hot weather here in the east, I've no hard fouling problems and accuracy is excellent.

Bees Wax 16 oz
Anhydrous Lanolin 7 oz
Mobil 1 synthetic oil 7 oz
Palm Oil 2.5 oz

You mentioned annealing your brass in an earlier post. What's your procedure?

CR

[geraldbergeron]

...
last year I bought a flash hole swage die from Kermit Hoke and restored those flash holes to original size.
...


Hi,

I would like to know if it this swage die ? "Kermit Hoke" does not make any advertise on their web site.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/geraldbergeron/Sharps/FlashHoleSwage.jpg

Thank you for your attention.

Gerald.

[Limey]

WBH.....


....what do you mean when you list the brass as ''stretched 2.1 cases''?

.....do you mean that they are 2.1 brass that have stretched through firing?

....or do you mean you have mechanically stretched them prior to loading?


...if it's the mechanical stretching.....just how did you do that?



Safe shooting


Limey

[WBH]

Limey...........
Back in the day when 45-90 was harder to get and more expensive than today, I bought 45-90 cases from BA that they "stretch" to get an extra .300" from them.
I honestly don't know how they do it. I have since bought Starline cases, but the case powder capacity it slightly less than the stretched cases. Now there seems to be more of a choice in suppliers of the longer cases, so I don't know if BA still sells the 45-2.1/2.4.

I do have to double check the length when loading and heading to the range with loaded ammo. The headstamp says 45-70 NOT 45-90.