About to give up on trying to shoot cast in my rifle

[Fugowii]

A Rem 700 in 30-06. Tried 311291 and 311284 with various loads of 5744. Sized to .310". Butted the boolits right up against the lands. It's like shooting a musket ball out at 100 yards. I can barely keep the rounds on target (2'x3'). Only one question: Would sizing them larger, to say .311", make much of a difference?

Thanks,

F

[shooter93]

It could, slug the barrel and do a chamber cast to check dimensions. There is twist rate to consider, velocity And you have a plethora of powders to try etc. It can take some time but it's rare an 06 can't be made to shoot cast accecptably. I doubt 5744 would have been my first pick as a powder but you will get many "pet loads" from the folks here. Don't give up just yet.

[zomby woof]

Try a different powder, slower, with Dacron.

[slim1836]

I never got 5744 or IMR4895 to shoot well in my .308. I settled on Unique.

[Larry Gibson]

Fugowii

Assuming GC'd bullets;

Alloy?

Lube?

How much 5744?

Larry Gibson

[williamwaco]

I have never had any luck ( accuracy ) with

1) Any 30 cal rifle bullet less than .311.

2) Any rifle load of any caliber with the bullet touching the lands.

I don't know anything about that powder. ( Lyman seems to like it ).
I expect you are trying to run before you can walk. All the Lyman loads are in the almost 2000 fps range. That is too hot for a beginner to try as a first cast bullet load.

I always start with 8 or nine grains of Unique. That will give you around 1000 to 1200 fps in your .30-06. Unique is absolutely not sensitive to powder placement in the case so don't use a filler.

Try 20 of these. They should give you sub 6" at 100 yards. Then, you can start serious load development. When you can group in 3" at 100 yds., if you feel it necessary, start upping the velocity a little at a time.

[waksupi]

Yep, bigger boolit.

[ShooterAZ]

You could also try 10 grains of Unique, 13 grains of Red Dot, or 16 grains of 2400. If your rifle is not accurate with either of these three powder/loads combinations, something else is wrong. .310 (should be fine). What alloy & lube you are using might help answer more questions or solve problems. I just started using 5744, and so far have had decent results. Still need to do more load development.

[Fugowii]

Fugowii

Assuming GC'd bullets;

Alloy?

Lube?

How much 5744?

Larry Gibson

Gas Checked. Alloy is just shy of #2. Lube is Magma Lube. 28, 29, 30, 31 grs of 5744 in the 311284. 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 with the 311291. I went to the 311284 to see if the heavier boolit would make a difference. Didn't seem to. Rifle is slugged at a skoosh under .309".

[mpmarty]

Try 2400 powder and from 19 to 27 gr watch for pressure signs as you proceed.

[BCB]

I’m not an ’06 shooter so I really can’t say much about that cartridge…

I have only had marginal accuracy with 5744, with the exception of using it in the 270 Winchester…

I have had much better accuracy with 4759 which is in the same burning rate as 5744…

And why not try your reloads at a closer distance—say 50 yards?...

Might let you see a bit better what is going on, plus closer distances might give a bit more confidence with boolits being a bit closer in a group…

Find something that looks really good a 50 yards and then stretch it out to 100 yards…

I know that groups can be amazingly great at 50 yards and amazingly terrible at 100 yards. But, it might be worth a try…

Good-luck…BCB

[AviatorTroy]

Yes, 2400 is magic. Also read this...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425

I don't shoot 30-'06 but in all my military rifles 10 gr of unique or 16-20 gr of 2400 go bang and with reasonable accuracy with straight ww alloy. I don't have a chrono but I'd bet I don't exceed 1800 fps with any of my rifle cast loads. So, not too hot but I go for accuracy not blasting power. That's what Nosler Partitions are for. :)

[HangFireW8]

A Rem 700 in 30-06. Tried 311291 and 311284 with various loads of 5744. Sized to .310". Butted the boolits right up against the lands. It's like shooting a musket ball out at 100 yards. I can barely keep the rounds on target (2'x3'). Only one question: Would sizing them larger, to say .311", make much of a difference?

Thanks,

F

Fugowii,

First, can you rule out for us that there isn't a systemic problem, like a bad scope, loose scope mount, badly shifting bedding, a bur or nick on the crown? For example, do you have any factory or j-word loads that work really well? Lately?

I concur with the advice to try "the load" (Red Dot) and 2400. I'm amazed how universally accurate these two powders are with cast boolits.

HF

[Larry Gibson]

Gas Checked. Alloy is just shy of #2. Lube is Magma Lube. 28, 29, 30, 31 grs of 5744 in the 311284. 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 with the 311291. I went to the 311284 to see if the heavier boolit would make a difference. Didn't seem to. Rifle is slugged at a skoosh under .309".

First off I agree with the .311 size as that is my "go to" sizing for .30 cals.

Second your loads of 5744 are too much for both bullets. If you really want to use 5744 suggest you try 19 - 24 gr (18 - 23 gr if you also use a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler) with the 311291. Try 20 - 26 gr (19 - 25 gr with the dacron filler) with the 311284.

Better yet try 4895 at 29 - 32 gr with the 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron fillet under the 311284.

Larry Gibson

[Ben]

My friend shot this at about 80 yards yesterday .
Not certain how many rounds he fired, ...more than 5, I know ! !
30 - 06, 16.0 grs. 2400 with the 311290 sized .310".
( .310 will work in my friend's rifle...may or may not in yours ? ? )
YES, I'd definitely try 16.0 grs. of 2400.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Photo0729.jpg

[TCLouis]

Anyone have some real world velocities for the 16.0 grains of 2400 with 180-200 grain boolit

[Ben]

A guess on my behalf, I'd say around 1550 - 1600 or so.

Ben

[Larry Gibson]

A guess on my behalf, I'd say around 1550 - 1600 or so.

Ben

Concur with Ben.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

First off I agree with the .311 size as that is my "go to" sizing for .30 cals.

Second your loads of 5744 are too much for both bullets. If you really want to use 5744 suggest you try 19 - 24 gr (18 - 23 gr if you also use a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler) with the 311291. Try 20 - 26 gr (19 - 25 gr with the dacron filler) with the 311284.

Better yet try 4895 at 29 - 32 gr with the 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron fillet under the 311284.

Larry Gibson
I agree with Larry in that the load is too hot, especially for a non heat treated boolit of medium hard alloy.
Look at a burn rate chart and I think you will find 5744 very close in burn rate to 4227. Now look at suggested loads for 4227. In a 30/06 case at about any caliber using 4227 I start to get good groups at about 21gn.

[MBTcustom]

I understand you guys telling him to run slower but 1800?.....in an '06?.....Seriously? We can do better than that, he aint shooting a 30 carbine ya know!:kidding:

First of all you need a bigger boolit.
Second you need a few boolits to try. Some are just dogs that don't like to shoot, but when you find the right one, its like the breath of life.
Third you need to pull a few of the boolits to make sure they are actually the size they are supposed to be when they get to the barrel.

My philosophy is to start with the speed that you would like to be shooting (as long as its less than 2600. 2400 is my go-to with .002-.003 oversize, pulled and measured, with 95Pb/3Sb/2Sn ) and try several different boolits. One boolit will present itself as the clear leader in the accuracy dept.
Next try several powders with that boolit, at that speed. One will present itself as better than the others.
Next mess with powder charges. You will find a sweet spot with that powder in a certain range.
Next mess with lube. Javelina, BAC, Bens Red, and above all FWFL are on my short list of good lubes. One will present itself as better than the others.
Finally, mess with seating depth. You will find the sweet spot and you should be under an inch at this point.
If you have done all of this, then maybe the problem is much simpler. Perhaps your crown is damaged? (if you like to use a bore snake a lot then this is a very real possibility)
When you slug your bore feel for loose spots and take note of where they are.
I had a model 70 once that was just a dog. I loaded and loaded for that rifle, and tried everything I knew how to do. The very best group I ever got was 4" at 100 yards. There might as well have been no rifling in that barrel at all, it was that bad. I wish I had not sold that gun as it still bugs me, but every now and then you get a lemon of a rifle.
The last pearl of wisdom I would impart to you, especially if yo follow my advice, is change only one thing at once!
If you change two or three things every time you are just chasing your tail. This is the part that takes discipline and patience (two things I am not good at, but have had to learn) you just can't get there without these two.
Cast boolits are not plug and play. There is skill involved here. But I can speak for many on this board who believe that the results are so rewarding (and I'm not talking about feel good feelings but real results!) that it makes it all worth it. Shoot your first deer with a cast boolit and you will know what I mean.
Jacketed bullets? They can kiss my lube grooves!

[Bullshop]

You could also try 10 grains of Unique, 13 grains of Red Dot, or 16 grains of 2400. If your rifle is not accurate with either of these three powder/loads combinations, something else is wrong. .310 (should be fine). What alloy & lube you are using might help answer more questions or solve problems. I just started using 5744, and so far have had decent results. Still need to do more load development.

ShooterAZ
I am querious about why you suggest loads using 10gn Unique or 13gn Red Dot when Red Dot is quite substantially faster burning than Unique.
That would make the Red Dot much hotter (higher pressure) than the Unique load. If the loads are reversed 10/RD and 13/Unique the pressure should be closer to equal.

[Bullshop]

"""I understand you guys telling him to run slower but 1800?.....in an '06?.....Seriously? We can do better than that, he aint shooting a 30 carbine ya know!"""

True the 30/06 is capable of much more just not with 5744 for powder.
Give them a longer slower push if you want higher velocity.

[geargnasher]

If you want to go faster than 1800 with pinpoint accuracy you need to have a LOT of things really right. Nobody's really mentioned the number-one thing here.

Gear

[RugerFan]

IMR 3031 is my go-to powder with .30 cals including 30-06. I have the same rifle and have had good luck PPing.

[MBTcustom]

I confess, I'm an IMR junkie. I would be trying 4895, and 4831 in that rifle. I like IMR powders because I feel safe reducing them. I have found data for 3031 that is all over the place depending on what manual you are using.

The '06 is too much medicine for cast boolits, that is true, and must be reduced in order to get good accuracy and a starting point from which to build on.
However, there is no reason in the world that you should not be able to get an honest 1.5" group at 100 yards running 2400FPS.
You have a rifle that shoots like a musket. If you are after a target load then I concede that these fellers are definitely steering you in the right direction, but if you are just wanting a hunting load, then you can run it a lot faster and still have fairly good accuracy.

I always come down on the hunting side of things. I started out shooting targets, and then I got into hunting and found out that deer meat tastes better than paper. So now, I shoot targets but I'm not too awful worried about clover leaves at 100 yards (of course I wont turn it down either).

[Bullshop]

IMR junkie!!!! Thats funny!!! I am picturing Al Pachino as Scar Face sitting at a table with long lines of extruded powder before him and a straw in his hand and enough powder smeared on his face to load a couple 06 rounds.
OK all you powder junkies lets see if I can muddy the water a bit by confessing to duplexing the 30/06. Oh boy that aught to do it!!!
The 06 case may be too much case for boolits with the IMR powders in the 4350 to 4831 burn range so think slower. Go over the top way past optimun burn and see what happens with some of the way slow 50 bmg powders and heavy boolits. You know like 5010 and the likes. You might get a surprise.

[youngda9]

goodsteel gives good advice in post #20 !

[jed]

My best load for 31141 is 21 of 5744 and 20 for the 311284. I've tried to push them in three 06's, but had my best success with 4759 at 18 grains. Sized 309,310,311 and get about the same results. I intend to try the different powders as Good Steel mentions, but will have to do a better job of alloying my lead and the challenge to shoot better and faster is a good one. Does you barrel lead and does it have any copper in it?

[Fugowii]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the feedback. My rifle is a Rem700 BDL with a Leupold 3x9 and it shoots Jacketed to amazing accuracy. My problem is I like to shoot it a lot and thought since I shoot cast exclusively in my handguns I would move on to shooting cast out of the 30-06. Why I used the 311291 and 5744? I have a friend shooting a .308 that is shooting the 311291/5744 combo and has no difficulty achieving excellent accuracy. It's not a Rem700 rifle. I haven't shot cast before this in the rifle so I'm definitely not at the 'tweaking' point at all. As a matter of fact, getting all my shots in a 8 inch pie plate at this time would probably cause me to go on a bender. Right now they are all over a 2x3 target @ 100 yards. I haven't shot it at 50 yards yet as I only load up a dozen in three different loads at a time.

I tried lighter loads with the 5744/311291 and the primers were backing out on me. I have absolutely no signs of pressure with the loadings I posted. I am going to try the .311" sizing and then if I see no signs of improvement move on to a different powder. I don't want to go to a larger boolit than the 311284 (210gr) and would have preferred to stay with the 311291 as I already have that mould. At this point I am mooching boolits from my friend.

I have no leading whatsoever in the rifle. I even tried not cleaning it on subsequent shooting days to see if if seasoning the barrel might help. Didn't.

Again, thanks for all the excellent feedback. I will keep giving it a go. At this point I need to get it ready for deer season so I will have to sight it in using the Rem Core-Lokt 150's. Gets pricey doing that. I really wanted to use cast this year but I've run out of time.

Again, thanks for all the great feedback. It definitely gives me more tangents to go off on trying to get cast to shoot in this rifle.

[Fugowii]

My best load for 31141 is 21 of 5744 and 20 for the 311284. I've tried to push them in three 06's, but had my best success with 4759 at 18 grains. Sized 309,310,311 and get about the same results. I intend to try the different powders as Good Steel mentions, but will have to do a better job of alloying my lead and the challenge to shoot better and faster is a good one. Does you barrel lead and does it have any copper in it?

I am going to load up a dozen to see how your load of 20 with the 5744/311284 works.
Do your primers back out with this load? Can you tell me what length you are loading to?
What are you shooting them in?

[sundog]

My goto load in '06 is 21.0/4227 for just about any 180-200 grain boolit for ~1650 fps. I've shot thousands of rounds of this load in military bolt matches, and it flat works. N120 and 2400 are both good'uns, too. Make sure the boolit is MORE than .001 larger than bore.

[Ben]

Fugowii


You mentioned that your BDL will shoot jacketed well.
Did you remove 100% of the copper fouling from the bore prior to shooting your cast bullets ?

Very impt ! !

Ben

[Bullshop]

Primers backing out? Are you FL sizing? I would size to not alter the head to shoulder dimention. As added insurance to eliminate that problem I would us an OAL that has the boolit in solid contact with the lands.

Sundog I see that we agree on "the load"

[Fugowii]

Fugowii


You mentioned that your BDL will shoot jacketed well.
Did you remove 100% of the copper fouling from the bore prior to shooting your cast bullets ?

Very impt ! !

Ben

Yeah,

Haven't shot copper in it for about 16 months at this point. Just chambered them last year since I didn't even get a shot at a deer last season. :mrgreen:

[Fugowii]

Primers backing out? Are you FL sizing? I would size to not alter the head to shoulder dimention. As added insurance to eliminate that problem I would us an OAL that has the boolit in solid contact with the lands.

Sundog I see that we agree on "the load"

Nope, neck sizing with a Lee collet die. I've got them mated to the lands.

[Marlin Junky]

180-190 grain gas checked boolit, sized .311" or a BCH over, cast of just about anything harder than 20:1; e.g., Lyman#2 or water dropped clip-on WW metal or perhaps even air cooled clip-on wheel weight metal. Some of the latter batches will age to BHN 13-14. Powders to be selected from the following:

4759
4227
5744 (too expensive for my taste)
4198
Reloader 7
Reloader 10x
3031
4895 (too slow [dirty at low pressure] for my taste but others like it)

Lube can be just about anything: BAC, TAC, whatever.

If you can't shoot into 2MOA at 1700-1800 fps under these conditions you need to learn how to cast better boolits.

MJ

[Bullshop]

""""""If you can't shoot into 2MOA at 1700-1800 fps under these conditions you need to learn how to cast better boolits.""""

Maybe and maybe not. Lots of good castings are ruined in the sizing/lubing process.
That might be two other places to look for problems.

[Marlin Junky]

""""""If you can't shoot into 2MOA at 1700-1800 fps under these conditions you need to learn how to cast better boolits.""""

Maybe and maybe not. Lots of good castings are ruined in the sizing/lubing process.
That might be two other places to look for problems.

Very true... assuming you are using gas checked boolits, are the gaschecks going on properly? A little flaring tool is handy in case you're dealing with GC shanks that are a little large in diameter. Given enough force on the sizer handle, you can also bend your boolits, but that rarely happens with a 185 grain .311" cast of something at least as strong as COWW metal.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Lots of good castings are ruined in the firing process, too.

Gear

[mto7464]

Seriously try 2400, start at 16 grains and work up. Your loads I think are way to hot for the hardness of your boolits. Fit should not be a problem. A buddy of mine shot some cast the other day that were loaded full JB charges. Key holed them all over the target. I could tell by the report he had over loaded them.

[OnHoPr]

Fugowii, 5744 can be a finicky powder to use. Since you have loaded for the 06 before and you are using a slightly softer boolit. Don't you have any other powders in the 4064 to 4831 to try. If so, try loading with one or a couple of those type of powders in the 30K psi to 35K psi range. You may see a big difference.[smilie=s:

[Ben]

There is a lot of cast bullet data out there that won't produce ammo accurate enough to hit a barn.

Just because you've got the data out of a book or off the net means little.

We have come to a point where were read something that was produced by someone with a computer and a keyboard and assume it is the gospel. BEST BEWARE ! ! !

Proven data from true, experienced cast bullet shooters will often get you much quicker results when searching for an accurate load.

By the way, there are many people here on this forum that fit the bill and are very willing to help.

Ben

[Char-Gar]

A Rem 700 in 30-06. Tried 311291 and 311284 with various loads of 5744. Sized to .310". Butted the boolits right up against the lands. It's like shooting a musket ball out at 100 yards. I can barely keep the rounds on target (2'x3'). Only one question: Would sizing them larger, to say .311", make much of a difference?

Thanks,

F

My thoughts on your question

1. Sizing your bullets one thou larger won't reduce a 2 foot by 3 foot group to anything near accepable. Your problem isn't there.

2. The mentioned bullet are both good tried and proven designs for the 30-06, so your problem isn't there.

3. So where is your problem? Here is my list;

a. Bullets are not properly cast
b. alloy is all wrong
c. crappy lube
d. no gas check
e. wrong powder
f. too much powder

I don't know what your issues are as I am not looking over your shoulder. I have never fired a round of 5744 so I can't comment on how that stuff works. If your bullet are well cast, of ACWW or harder, with a good lube, here is a load that will do well for you and produce good groups. This is conditioned of course on your barrel being free of guilding metal fouling which can act like a file on the bullet as it passes over.

16 to 18 grains of 2400 powder.

2400 powder is a great cast bullet powder IF velocities are kept to no more than 1,800 fps. Above that and problems start to happen. I won't waste your time with the lecture why this is true.

If you want to go above 1.8 K fps, you will need a slower powder like 4895 or one of that family.

When you get above 2 K fps, things start to get more complicated by several fold. You run into the issue of barrel twist and than can eat your lunch. Your Remington will have a 1-10 twist.

For the fellow that wants to shoot his 30-06 at much above 2,000 fps, he should invest in a 1-12 twist barrel or go to a .308 that has that twist from the factory. Some do and some don't.

A Winchester 94 or other 30-30 with a 1-12 twist can be fired at factory level velocity without much problem. Marlins have 1-10 twist barrels.

There really is no reason to run a 30-06 above 1,800 fps with cast bullets. At that level accuracy will be on par with the best jacketed. The accuracy will hold up out to 400-600 yards and game can be killed neatly and cleanly at 200 yards and under. That is about 99% of what we want a rifle to do.

In conclusion....there is no need to back away from cast bullets. You just have to learn what your are doing wrong and then do it right. In the process, be careful whose counsel you take. Lots of stuff in gun publications is nonsense and lots of stuff you read posted on internet boards is also nonsense.

You can take counsel from Ben, Larry Gipson, Bruce B and Waksupi with confidence it is solid stuff. There are others whose names don't immediately pop into my mind. This is not to say that there are not others giving good advice, it is just I don't have the long term experience with them to feel comfortable with the totality of their counsel yet.

Best of luck to you...

[Fugowii]

Again, many many thanks to the responders. I feel energized again and will see this through. I use nothing but cast on my handguns and I am hoping to do the same with my rifles. With your assistance I can't help but succeed.



3. So where is your problem? Here is my list;

a. Bullets are not properly cast (I have tried both mine and a friends so I think this is OK as his shoots great in his .308)
b. alloy is all wrong (I use a mix of ww. 2% tin, and 25% lino - friends uses w/d ww)
c. crappy lube (Magma lube - possible problem?)
d. no gas check (nope - gas checked)
e. wrong powder (possible problem?)
f. too much powder (possible problem?)

[OnHoPr]

Fugowii, according to an EXcel alloy program that I downloaded from a castboolit post, your alloy is Sn 3.07 - Sb 9.76 - Pb 87.16 = 18.46 BHN, a tad harder than No. 2. Not saying this is your problem, but your alloy should handle a little bit of pressure. At lower velocities like 1700 - 1800 fps you may not get any expansion on those boolits. The w/d ww and your alloy are very similar in BHN, though your alloy probably being a little more brittle and his being a little more tougher. That being, shows a wide spectrum of characteristics for BHN.

[Recluse]

I was on a quest to push the velocity for 30-06. Like Godsteel, I'm a big IMR fan and have been for years.

One thing I found in several months of testing was that when you get into the higher velocities, even the most (seemingly) minute change in component factors can affect your results quite dramatically.

In the following picture, I used 41 grains of IMR 4350, but I used my own custom lube, installed the gas checks using the Lee push through system and lubed the boolits in a Lyman 45 using a sizing .310 so that the boolit was only being lubed.

The alloy is WW water-dropped straight from the mold, gas-checked/sized/lubed on the same day, then stored for three weeks before being loaded. I can shoot groups like this at 100 yards all day long with this load combination.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=252&pictureid=4903

The following picture shows the same exact bullet, but instead tumble-lubed with my 45/45/10 and the powder charged reduced to 34.0 grains of IMR 4350.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=252&pictureid=4915

Notice that the point-of-impact with the reduced charge dropped several inches.

In the next picture, I added one more grain of powder, but I used air-cooled WW boolits. You'll note that the group spread out a bit--that's with only one more grain of powder and a slightly less hard boolit.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=252&pictureid=4917

So I lower the charge to 39 grains, using the same air-cooled boolit and guess what? The group spread out even MORE.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=252&pictureid=4916

The point is, when chasing higher velocities, it's been my experience that there is a very, very, VERY small margin for variance and/or error in finding YOUR gun's "sweet spot."

I have a stack of targets that reflect significant changes in group size with nothing more changing than the lube. Or the alloy hardness/composition. Or even as little as two grains of powder. I have some targets in which I changed lube AND only reduced powder by ONE grain and the group opened up by several inches.

My advice would be to find a boolit that does best in the gun you're shooting. For me, it happened to be the Lee 200grRN. I tried three different boolits of similar weight, and the Lee design shot best.

Slugging my barrel netted me an optimal size of .309.

So, all boolits became .309, gas-checked the same way and lubed with the same lube. Then I worked up powder loads, even going so far as differentiating by .5 grains. Some argue that half a grain is insignificant and has zero bearing on your group--I have targets, lots of them, that say differently.

Then I worked on seating depth and crimp (not much crimp at all in my bolt-action rifles), and then finally on batches of brass being careful to record how many times each case had been fired before annealing.

Then comes the final and hardest step of all--duplicating your best success, and doing so more than once.

It can absolutely be done, but it is a very lengthy--and often frustrating--process. For me, I enjoy the journey more than the destination, so these kinds of quests are perfect for me. They are never completed in just a few months with me and instead take a long time.

:coffee:

[mpmarty]

I guess I'm just dumb lucky. rifle is a Savage short action bolt w/ 1:10 twist in 308. Boolits were ac ww 175gr out of a lee mold tumble lubed and not sized nor checked. Load was 24gr of 2400 velocity from my rifle was 2250 avg. Lacking a 100 yard range my targets are at 85 yards. Fired five shots and got a four leaf clover with the middle gone. Using a scope off a bench rest I made. I have loaded up to 40gr of 3031 with this boolit and got good results also. Since I've got many pounds of 2400 I quit looking for "the load".

[OnHoPr]

CORRECTION
Fugowii, I have to make a correction to my previous post. When I brought the EXcel program up off of the task bar I noticed that my calculations were with 75% lino and 23% ww. Corrected calculations are 25% lino, 73% ww, and 2% Sn for a 14 BHN. So that is about 4 BHN below the wd / ww. Which might not handle the faster pressure rises of the faster powders. Please excuse.

[Fugowii]

CORRECTION
Fugowii, I have to make a correction to my previous post. When I brought the EXcel program up off of the task bar I noticed that my calculations were with 75% lino and 23% ww. Corrected calculations are 25% lino, 73% ww, and 2% Sn for a 14 BHN. So that is about 4 BHN below the wd / ww. Which might not handle the faster pressure rises of the faster powders. Please excuse.

Good to know. I was using the Cabintree and that is what I was getting. Just shy of #2.

[sledgehammer001]

It took me 10 years to get a CB load I was satisfied with, for my 30-06 Rem 721. Disremember the powder or charge weight, but I had to load them 0.020" into the rifling to get good accuracy. When I found my final load, it was 6 inches at 450 yds. and running right at 1800fps. Lobbed them in but she rang the steel every time. I used Lee's 200gr. GC, cast at 220gr. sized .310", shot through a .308" bore bbl. Oh, and homemade lube. DON'T GIVE UP. ( edit: I used SR7625 powder.)

[leadman]

I have used 5744, but found IMR SR4759 is a much better powder for my uses. I do shoot alot of different 30-06 rifles (have 6 of them).
Most like 19grs of 4759, WLR primer. .310" Lyman 311041, Carnuba Red lube. .002" off the lands. BHN is 13 to 15.
Several of my rifles will shoot sub moa with this combination. One 1903a3 really likes the same load but with 12grs of Unique.

My Savage 110DL will shoot the Lyman 314299 sized .310" heat treated with a large dose of IMR 4350 into sub moa groups at almost 2,600 fps.

I would reduce the 5744 to 18 or 19grs, change lube to Carnuba Red, LBT, etc. and try it again.
Make sure no lead is scraped off the boolit when seating and do not crimp.

[madsenshooter]

Wow, lots of opinions here! I agree with those recommending a slower powder. Both bullets the OP is using have quite a bit of bearing surface. Something I've noted, and remember I'm just a beginner myself, is that when lead blows back on the neck, you've exceeded the yield strength of the alloy. Accuracy may still be semi-acceptable, depending on what one is looking for or expecting.

I was just doing nearly the same thing the OP is doing, but with 4198. Finally noticed the lead blowback on the caseneck and switched to a larger dose of slow burner. 2"groups at best instantly became a sub-1" group out of a 117yr old rifle with a 55 year old eyeball (and not my master eye), doing the iron sight aiming. Quesstimated velocity of 2000fps.

Try starting at 37gr of something that burns in the neighborhood of 4350 and workup. You'll get the velocity you're after and I'll bet things will settle for you accuracy-wise. I've been disgusted and felt like going back to jacketed myself, but someone has to do the experimentation and bust some of these old casting myths!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_1236507dfa79d243d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7067)

[Fugowii]

Seriously try 2400, start at 16 grains and work up. Your loads I think are way to hot for the hardness of your boolits. Fit should not be a problem. A buddy of mine shot some cast the other day that were loaded full JB charges. Key holed them all over the target. I could tell by the report he had over loaded them.

I had a good day at the range today. I put together the following loads:

1) 20.0 grs of 5744 with a 311284
2) 20.0 grs of 5744 with a 311291
3) 16.0 grs of 2400 with a 311284

I shot the 5744 loads at both 100 yds and 50 yds. Much better than before. I'm on the target but the groups were still pretty wide (+/- four to five inches) and unpredictable.

I then shot the 2400 @ 100 yds. WoW! I felt like I got my rifle back. Not only did I come in on the target horizontally perfect but I then walked the rifle right into the target center by adjusting the scope. My last three shots (out of a dozen) were dead on the target center about an inch between them (center, left, right). I attribute that more to my shooting than the load.

Have you chrono'ed the 16 grains of 2400 with the 311291? That's next on my agenda, to see how the 311291 shoots with 2400.

Also, is 2400 recommended for reduced loads? Please say yes! :mrgreen:

[ShooterAZ]

16 grains of 2400 is a benchmark load for 30-06 and other similar sized cases. I would not reduce it. Try 10-12 grains of Unique next for a more "reduced" load. This load also flat works. You can try increasing the 2400 load by 1/2 grain increments, but your best accuracy will most likely be somewhere between 16-20 grains.

[1874Sharps]

Fugowii,

You may also try thoroughly cleaning your barrel. Some barrels I have shot are very sensitive to fouling (both lead and copper) and accuracy will degrade dramatically with fouling. Curiously, other barrels will tolerate fouling much better without accuracy degradation. Why this is I cannot say, but it is true.

Oh, and a word of encouragement: Hang in there, good groups are out there just waiting for you. The joy (yes, and sometimes a bit of frustration, too) is in the journey. You will find it most satifying when you acheive your goal!

[Fugowii]

16 grains of 2400 is a benchmark load for 30-06 and other similar sized cases. I would not reduce it. Try 10-12 grains of Unique next for a more "reduced" load. This load also flat works. You can try increasing the 2400 load by 1/2 grain increments, but your best accuracy will most likely be somewhere between 16-20 grains.

I wasn't thinking of reducing it. Just wanted to know if it was recommended by the manufacturer for reduced loads. When I looked at the min load in the books it was higher than 16gr.


Fugowii,

You may also try thoroughly cleaning your barrel. Some barrels I have shot are very sensitive to fouling (both lead and copper) and accuracy will degrade dramatically with fouling. Curiously, other barrels will tolerate fouling much better without accuracy degradation. Why this is I cannot say, but it is true.

Oh, and a word of encouragement: Hang in there, good groups are out there just waiting for you. The joy (yes, and sometimes a bit of frustration, too) is in the journey. You will find it most satifying when you acheive your goal!

Thanks for the info. I will keep an eye on it. I must be fortunate though as the barrel is as clean as a whistle. With the GC boolits and sized .310" I haven't had as much as a speck of fouling or leading. I've actually gone the other way a couple of times and not cleaned it to see if a previous 'fouling' would make a difference. (It didn't.)

I am psyched now with the success I had with the 2400 and intend to build on this. Maybe I will go back to the 5744 at some point but right now I see light at the end of the tunnel and it isn't an oncoming train.

[Fugowii]

Lyman 46th lists 18.6gr 2400 under the 311291 at 1635fps from a 24" 30-06 barrel. 19gr under the 311284 gets 1592fps. These are their starting loads, btw.

Thanks. This is why I was asking whether or not the manufacturer 'recommends' this powder for reduced loads as I was shooting with 16.0 gr.

[MtGun44]

As was previously stated, try 10 gr Unique, 13 gr Red Dot or 16 gr 2400.

Bill

[JIMinPHX]

I'd try water dropping about a dozen of your boolits & see if that makes a difference. If accuracy gets worse, then that might indicate that you need more pressure. If it gets better....stick with it.

Try cambering a few rounds & popping them back out without firing them. Then look for damaged noses on the boolits.

Also, just for giggles, try about 3-5 rounds with no gas check, just to see what happens.

Recovering your fired boolits in a soft backstop medium, like crumb rubber might allow you to do an autopsy to look for signs of gas blow by, stripped rifling, or other obvious issues that could suggest an appropriate corrective action.

[jabilli]

Fugowii,



Oh, and a word of encouragement: Hang in there, good groups are out there just waiting for you. The joy (yes, and sometimes a bit of frustration, too) is in the journey. You will find it most satifying when you acheive your goal!

"

I really like 1874Sharps attitude: Part of the enjoying your successful loads derives partly from frustration of loads that don't work out so well. I like to say it in pretty much every hobby I do, and I reword it for each though I can't take credit for being the originator of the thought- The best bullet caster is the one having the most fun. :-)

I've resolved to just simply stick to casting in handgun calibers- After tinkering with different .223 loads, I would still vaporize bullets/ have them pepper the target with fragments, despite having relatively light loads. Rather than being frustrated with this and focusing on the bad, I choose to just enjoy successfully making handgun cartridges that work well.