30-30 and cast

[beefyz]

Wondering if any of you have tried the whole spectrum of cast bullets that could be available for a 30-30. I read somewhere the other day that just like in the jacketed version, the cast in the 150- 170s range "will perform the best". Does that mean that cast in the 110-140s range would not perform as well ? Just curious if any of you have tried this . And if you have is it necessary that these boolits would be gaschecked or could you run without checks as long as you watched your velocity?

[x101airborne]

Only my mouse-fart loads dont use checks. 5 grains red dot under a .313 90 grain RN sized to .311 intended for the 32 H&R.

I am using several different molds in my old waffle top marlin with ballard rifling. My happiest ones are in the 160 - 180 range. My ancient lyman 180 grain mold cast of straight WW+tin and air cooled is what I use in all my 30 cal rifles and pistols (TC 308, 30-30, 30 herrett). Not a stellar grouper, about 2 inches at 100, but DANG effective on all game shot with it so far. I posted some pics using that boolit on a hog from a 308 pistol at about 50 or so yards (dont remember exactly). I have never had an animal make it more than about 30 feet with that boolit in a reasonably well placed shot.

You can try everything in your rifle and may get different results than anyone else. It is not that lighter or heavier loads WONT work, just more luck may be had with a certain range of weights.

[geargnasher]

The problem with most .30-30s is the throat and leade. Most of them have a long, oversized throat and a sharp angle to the rifling rather than a smooth taper. Short, lightweight boolits don't "reach out and touch" the lands, and a long jump through space tends to both cause misalignment when engraving and lots of gas leaks around the boolit before it gets sealed up in the bore. Accuracy suffers and leading can occur. I've shot quite a few of the RCBS 115-grain gas-check flat nose boolits in both of my .30-30s with good success, but that boolit has a very large-diameter nose and when sized .311-.312" makes the transition into the bore quite well, even with a light dose of Red Dot behind them.

That being said, 160-180-grain boolits work best for me because they fit the gun the best. I have zero issues using a plain-based 165-grain boolit at "mousefart" velocities, and rather than use an ulra-light boolit, I just download the standard weights to do the same thing and then learn how to lob them correctly at distance.

Gear

[KCSO]

I have shot from 90 grain 32 pistol bullets up to 180 grain round nose bulets in the 30-30 in Winchester, Marlin and Savage rifles. The pistol bullets were loaded with a light load of Trail Boss to about 700 fps and the hunting loads I like best are 170 31141 Lymans over W/W 748 to 2100fps from a 20" barrel. The Lee soupcans at 32-20 veloocity are a great all roound small game load and the Lee 165 spire point made for the SKS are just dandy target loads in the Savage rifle. IMHO either the 30-30 or the 30-40 Krag are THE best cast bullet calibers as you can load from mouose to moose and a cast bullet can easily be driven at jacketed bullet velocities. I can see no difference in killing power between a 170 cast bullet and a jacketed slug if you use the right alloy.

[beefyz]

WOw ! I ask these questions as years ago I sold my 30-30 in favor of the 30-06 as I had always wanted one of those and supplemented that with a M1 which i also reload for. Now being retired, i find myself exploring the wonderful world of shooting lead, and thought about getting another 30-30 to do so. They are always readily available around here at a decent price. Actually, I have been looking for a 25-35 but probably panning for gold would be easier. So that brough me back to the 30-30, its availability, and same for brass and bullets. But if i'm going to make the jump i would like to be able to shoot the smaller grainanges available such as 90 thru 140 grains. I understand Now i think that these selections "may not" be as accurate as the 150s thru 170s but my loads would be strictly for targeting, paper punching, can whacking & the enjoyment of the hobby of shooting & reloading; NO hunting. I can't even see 100 yds out anymore. Keep the stories coming here, guys, I'd like to see what you all are using and your (un)successful stories. Thanks
z

[1Shirt]

I am on the same page as KCSO, but would also add roundball loads over a few gr of Bullseye or Red dot. A few years ago I bought a box of cast 140gr. from Beartooth, and they were outstanding in 30-30.
1Shirt!

[Larry Gibson]

My experience with 30-30 chambers (many different commercial chambers of most makes cast and measured) is that the chamber neck is long and many times oversize but the throat is relatively short. The angle of the leade is sharp though. With cases trimed to most specifiec lengths this does pose a problem for seating the shorter bullets out close to the leade. It also creates a large area in front of the case where the cast bullet can obturate into before being squeezed back down by the throat/bore....not conducive to the best of acuracy.

However, not all is doom and gloom and many, many of us get very useable accuracy (even excellent accuracy) with such chambers. Over the years I've developed loads with jacketed bullets of 77 (pistol bullets) to 190 gr 303 Savage Winchester STs at velocities from 1200 fps to 2750 fps. I've developed excellent loads for PB'd cast bullet of 85 - 180 gr keeping velocities from a low of 500 fps to a high of 1400 fps. With GC'd cast bullets of 105 - 220 gr I've developed excellent loads in the 500 fps to 2200 fps range. All of these loads covered the range of shooting from cat's sneeze/plinking/small game to target shooting to big game hunting.

The 30-30 is a very versatile cartridge for jacketed and cast bullet for a wide range of use in lever actions, bolt actions and single shots of rifle and handgun persuasion. Over the years I've come to prefer the 12" twist, especially with cast bullets. Were I to custom barrel a rifle it would have a 14" twist which would be very adequate for cast bullets from 85 gr to 180 gr.

Larry Gibson

[williamwaco]

I love the .30-30.

I use the Lyman 311041, 311291, and the Lee 170.
And the 311008.

I have excellent results with the first three.
Couldn't hit a bull in the arrears with the 311008


.

[Maineboy]

I have 3 30-30s, a very early Winchester 1894with a 26" barrel, a pre microgroove Marlin 336, and a Savage 340 with a barrel shortened to 17 1/2 inches. All three shoot cast boolits better that any factory ammo I've ever tried in them.

[Tim357]

Those of you that shoot the lightweight boolits: how do your sights compensate for the difference in impact? Always wondered about that with factory sights

[beefyz]

OK...2 of you have brought up a possible chamber issue when trying to shoot lighter boolits in a 30-30. Can I hedge my bet by choosing one make over the other in order to get one gun that might be the better all around performer with these boolits ? This has to be a lever action and will probably be either a marlin or winny; which one would be better? And will i be able to get it with the "proper" twist which is ......?
I might fool around once in a while and throw a few jacketed downrange just to clean the barrel out, but 99% of my shootings i'd like to be in a wide range of cast. Is this doable ?

[runfiverun]

winchester 94's have 12 twist bbls and regular rifling.
marlins have 10 twist and microgroove bumps.
you don't need jaxketed to clean a bbl proper boolits will leave nothing but a little lube coating.
the winchester will shoot fine with 309-310 sized boolits.
the marlin will want 311-312 and probably like a harder alloy.
the newer winchesters have a stupid rebounding hammer and crossbolt safety.
the new remarlins are starting to get thier act together.
i'd go with something from the 70's maybe mid 80's or older if i could with either one.

[rintinglen]

I have loaded thousands of 30-30's ranging from 311-419 85 grainers up to 194 grain RCBS 30-180FN. I have 5 30-30's right now, 4 Winchesters and 1 Savage. My favorite boolits are the Lyman 311-465 and 311-466. The 465 runs about 125 grains and the 466 runs a shade over 155. 17.5 grains of 2400 under either boolit will shoot to the guns potential, given proper sizing. I have had good results with the 311-245, a 95 grain rn, and excellent results with the 311-041. I truly believe that there is no better cartridge for cast boolit shooting.

[big dale]

I used to play around with a bunch of different boolit molds for my 788 30/30 and then few years ago I was in on a group buy by NOE for ther version of the Ranchdog 165 and got one of those cut for both plain base and gas checked boolits. They work so good I don't bother with anything else anymoore.

Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale

[OnHoPr]

I'm just above boolit bub myself, so it might be harder to give you an experienced opinion. But, IMO it has a lot to do with your particular style of hunting. If you hunt out of a few box blinds on private property or your yearly blind and your shots would be strictly rib shots at the 50 to 100 yd range, a lighter fast boolit in soft alloy or hollow point would probably be very effective. If you hunt many areas and styles where raking and angle shots would be common the heavier boolit would probably be more effective.

[10x]

I have loaded thousands of 30-30's ranging from 311-419 85 grainers up to 194 grain RCBS 30-180FN. I have 5 30-30's right now, 4 Winchesters and 1 Savage. My favorite boolits are the Lyman 311-465 and 311-466. The 465 runs about 125 grains and the 466 runs a shade over 155. 17.5 grains of 2400 under either boolit will shoot to the guns potential, given proper sizing. I have had good results with the 311-245, a 95 grain rn, and excellent results with the 311-041. I truly believe that there is no better cartridge for cast boolit shooting.

There us a group buy on the 311465 mold available here.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=134021

I have never had a cast bullet load for 30-30 that was a really bad load. I like the loverin style bullets and have discovered that with the 30-30 (as with all guns) having a cast bullet that is 0.002" or more over the bore diameter seems to help accuracy a great deal.
I have found that Micro groove rifling requires at least a 0.310" bullet or larger.

I have also found that a good uniform base on a bullet increases accuracy as well. A gas check solves this problem so long as it is square with the bullet shank.

I have loaded bullets from 100 to 200 grains in my C.I.L. 830 (same as the Savage 340) using Unique, 700x, 335, RX7, 3031, and some other powders. All seemed to shoot very well with groups 3" or under at 100 meters.

I have also found that some guns will "like" a certain cast bullet / powder combination and give really good accuracy with that load, while other guns "like" a different powder / bullet combination to get the same accuracy.

I have also found that using a gas check solves a lot of accuracy issues.

[Larry Gibson]

beefyz

OK...2 of you have brought up a possible chamber issue when trying to shoot lighter boolits in a 30-30. Can I hedge my bet by choosing one make over the other in order to get one gun that might be the better all around performer with these boolits ?

Over the years I've not found one make with tighter chambers or shorter necks than the other in most all Marlin, Winchester, Savage 340s and a couple M788s with the exception of most TC barrels and one old Savage M99. I think (?) the problem may be the SAAMI specs for the chamber. You can hedge your bet by using longer 32 SPL or 38/5 cases sized down to 30-30 and trimmed to the neck length OAL of the chamber you are using them in. This is what I do (I use older 32 SPL cases which are long enough) for use with my really softer cast 311041HPs in my M94s. The accuracy difference with the same load but using 30-30 OAL cases is measurable.

This has to be a lever action and will probably be either a marlin or winny; which one would be better? And will i be able to get it with the "proper" twist which is ......?

I prefer the Winchester M94 because it has the slower 12" twist with and standard rifling which is conducive to better accuracy with softer cast bullets at higher velocities. If you want a scoped lever gun then look for a Winchester AE and use Leupold bases and rings. I also prefer a 24" barreled rifle M94 and am very pleased with the M94AE Black Shadow I have.

I might fool around once in a while and throw a few jacketed downrange just to clean the barrel out, but 99% of my shootings I’d like to be in a wide range of cast. Is this doable ?

Quite "doable" actually. I also shoot a few jacketed now and again. I like the Speer 130 gr FPs and the Hornady 160 FTXs I use H335 with the 130 FPs and LeveRevolution powder is outstanding with the 160 FTX. I do get 2440 fps with it out of my M94AE with excellent accuracy making it a 300 yard capable deer/antelope rifle with a scope on it. Using LeveRevolution powder under 170 or heavier cast bullets also enhances ballistics. I use LeveRevoltution under my 311041HP now and drive it at 2200+ fps with excellent accuracy even though it is cast very soft. Even with the 20" M94 carbine (got mine for my 14th BD:D ) performance with either is enhanced.

Now, over the years I've had several Marlin 336s, even a couple older pre MicroGroove ones with standard rifling. I always thought the Marlins would do better because they were scopeable back then (pre M94 AE). With jacketed they were excellent and most often proved more accurate because they were scope sighted. What I found with cast bullet though was if the velocity wih cast was kept in the 1700 - 1900 fps range (with harder cst bullets) they most often shot every bit as well as the M94s and many times better, again because they were scope sighted. However, as velocity was increased and the alloy softened for expansion at the terminal end, the M94s proved more accurate.....even with issue sights but particularly with aperture sights. At the time I didn't understand how the twist had an affect but now know how (keeps the RPM down at higher velocities).

I'm sure you will get some different responses from Marlin owners and that is ok. My comments here reflect what I have found over 40 years experience with the 30-30 in both Winchester and Marlin lever actions using cast bullets. However, in the past this has come up and I've said the same. I usually get a few PMs saying I was right and they wished they had got a Winchester M94. BTW; new M94s made in Japan and SC(?) have 10" twists so you might want to look for an older pre '64 Winchester. If money is not an object then a M64 or M54 would be my choice. If you want a scope then look for a M94 AE as they come in 20, 24, and, I think, some with 26" barrels.

Larry Gibson

[beefyz]

THanks everyone and Larry, for that extended answer & help. Actually, now i'm glad I asked the question about which rifle. That 30-30 I sold to my nephew was an early '70s vintage marlin with the standard (Ballard) grooving. never had an accuracy issue with it but i shot nothing but jacketed. If that 25-35 does not come along in the next few gun shows maybe i should "settle" for another 30-30 since its going to be cheaper, components are going to be so much easier to obtain, more load options will be available, and you guys really haven't stated that I couldn't do what I want to do using a 30-30. In that case I would start looking for a winny as I have never owned one. Thanks to all.....
z

[Centaur 1]

Here's another option, look at the Rossi Rio Grande. I haven't shot any cast boolits yet, but I bought it with cast in mind. Unlike it's close cousin the Marlin 336, Rossi uses 1-12" twist rifling that's cut deeper like Ballard rifling. A little shopping around and you should be able to find one for about $400. I was limited to where I could buy mine, I use a Bass Pro Shop reward credit card so I had lots of points added up. They special ordered it for me because they don't carry many Rossi's other than Taurus handguns. I thought that it was reasonable for a special order, only $429. After tax and background check I had enough between points and gift cards that the cost to me was $12. Ranch Dog runs the Rossi Rifleman website, check it out because there's a lot of good info about their guns.

http://www.rossi-rifleman.com/index.php?sid=ef2dd8aad379942ccdb09126de6cbc21