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Alzado
10-12-2012, 07:44 PM
Ok, to make a long story longer. I decided that I wanted to shoot cast boolits in my Springfield XDM 40S&W. Bought a Lyman 401638 2 place mold and Lyman's .401 sizer die. Casted and sized around 100 boolits with WW and 2* tin. Shot 30 reloads and checked the barrel. Leaded bad, back to front. Cleaned and decoppered until crystal clear clean. Slugged barrel, .401. Throat is .402. Put a mic on cast boolits, .398-.401. Ordered custom mold from Tom @ Accurate Molds machined to throw boolits at .4035. Honed Lyman sizer die out to .402. Checked new boolits after sizing, right at .402. Ordered a 41 Mag expander spud and machined it down to leave the cases expanded to .400. Loaded dummy rounds with new boolits and cases expanded to .400, then pulled boolits and measured them. Still .402, no swaging from the cases, even after a very slight taper crimp. Sized a few new boolits and lubed with Javalina 50/50 Bees wax and Alox. (NRA formula) Loaded 30 more rounds with 5.8grs. of 231 with this new 165 gr. TC Boolit (around 1000 FPS) and went to shooting. Checked barrel after the 30 rounds. Still leading, although not quite as bad. I'm up for any ideas that might get me shooting cast boolits in this gun without leading. Higher BHN? Different lube? Hotter or cooler powder charge? Thanks in advance.[smilie=b:

hithard
10-12-2012, 07:54 PM
I would take the fps down a bit, I cast mine 50/50 . So I am a bit softer. I'm not familiar with the lube you are using. You do have to play a bit with your load to find something to work. While getting it right on the first try is not a miracle, it doesn't always happen. Lube is cheap, and hopefully you have a friend you can steal a little powder from of a different make. I use green dot, not the cleanest but my load doesn't lead my barrel. Plus the color of soot matches the gun. MP40.

Shiloh
10-12-2012, 08:03 PM
The loads I found start at 4.7 gr and work up with 231. Is 5.8 a max load??
I'd back off and start over.

Shiloh

cabezaverde
10-12-2012, 08:14 PM
I shoot 40 SW in a Kel Tec Sub 2000 carbine w/o leading.

You might want to consider a slower powder - I use HS6.

MBuechle
10-12-2012, 08:33 PM
In my XD40 I've found reduced loads of power Pistol to work well. Using Lee 175 SWCTL and Alox, strait WW water dropped and lately 50/50 WW/lead water dropped. Had some lead early on with lasercast. Polished bore with JB bore bright every cleaning and after about a dozen or so, the bore is like a mirror and I get minimal leading. What I get pushes out with a dry patch. Blue dot & Hiskor 800X work well also but are not as accurate. These bullets drop at about 183 gr. and 4.5 gr. of PP push these at 816 fps. from my 4" barrel. I've pushed these boolits to 1020 with PP and don't get any more lead, but they're not as pleasant to shoot. Going to try HP-38 next. I'm in on a Mihec 180 gr. HP GB that is set to kick off soon. This'll be fun!

9.3X62AL
10-12-2012, 08:42 PM
The 175 Lee TC I use for most of my 40 S&W loading gives similar ballistics to my carry load (W-W SXT 180 JHP) using 4.7-4.8 grains of WW-231. Those results are 920-930 FPS from the Glock 23, and 960-975 FPS from the CZ-75B. 5.8 grains is ~20% over a fairly strong factory load's intensity.

The 40 S&W is not the lead-friendliest handgun caliber a-going. It runs at rifle-like pressures, and many 40 S&W barrels have rifle-like twist rates (1-10" or 4 turns/meter). Accordingly, treat them like rifles--and you largely have, given your text above.

I suggest you back the pressures down a taste, closer to factory ratings. The 40 S&W is largely maxed-out in most factory loads. A 180 grain .400" bullet clocking 925-950 FPS leaves nothing to be desired as felon repellant. The overcharges/overpressures may be stripping soft boolits in tight rifling twists. Try your present alloy with the more docile loadings, check for lead deposits. If still present, harden the alloy up some. I use 92/6/2 alloy (14-15 BHn) in all of my autopistol calibers, even though both of my current-use barrels have 1-16" twist. I have yet to experience a leaded barrel in 40 S&W, and I've sent thousands of rounds downrange in 4 different pistols over the past 12 years. Javelina Alox lube has done the job for me.

RobsTV
10-12-2012, 08:54 PM
With a Hi-Point JCP 40 S&W, using heavier Lee 175gr TC, had to reduce w231 from 5.3gr to 5.0gr and leading problems went away.

But same boolits in a new S&W Shield 40 now has severe leading.

A quick and dirty solution I have found that works well (thanks to a member here), is to do normal lube using Carnuaba Red, then a second lube with LLA. Have solved issues with other guns so no longer need use the LLA, but with the 40 S&W here, it needs to work in different guns, so a one size fits all solution was needed. The second lube of LLA makes it work.

EDIT: Typed my reply at same time as above post. Lead alloy here is a little softer, 93.3/4.7/2 13.4 BHN. Stripping faster boolits would also be my guess. Looks like I will also keep reducing the load a little more. Since it cured the issue in the Hi-Point, makes sense that lowering it more may cure it in the S&W Shield as well. Then, no second lube would be needed. Thanks.

40Super
10-12-2012, 09:55 PM
In my XDM40 I run .402sized boolits also, but I did the same with its barrel as I have done to all my barrels and run a snug mop with a ulra fine metal polish . That got them polished to a decent shine and it helped hugely on my Beretta 96's especialy , their bores were rather rough and wanted to collect lead (plus they are 403).
I also like AA#5 ,WSF, and SR 7625 for much of my cast loads, HP-38 is used for my .45acp comp load. I don't run any barnburners in the .40's, it is much more of a fun caliber if you tame down that sharp recoil.

Alzado
10-12-2012, 11:38 PM
Thanks guys, this info is good stuff. I will try some things and report back when I do.

popper
10-13-2012, 01:12 AM
I have the same accurate mold. Shoot it XDm and a PX4 .401 with alox or recluse, 4.8 gr. W231. Great accuracy and no leading after a range day of 300 rnds. You're just running too hot. My alloy is ~ WDWW to almost pure, same results all the time.

Any Cal.
10-13-2012, 01:54 AM
I run some other boolits hot in a 10mm, but waterdrop and use Longshot in an aftermarket barrel. I get some leading toward the muzzle, but not much. Using mystery lead, so don't know how much difference the waterdrop makes. Accuracy isn't grand, but they are REALLY hot, so an extra inch or two in the group doesn't bother me. Just a data point to go along with the rest.

Iron Mike Golf
10-13-2012, 10:05 AM
I *just* picked up a new-to-me Beretta 96 Centurion yesterday. DOM 95. I have been assembling things to cast in .40 cal, as I already had an IMI Baby Eagle in .40.

Molds are an NOE RG4 from the recent Group Buy. Have not cast with it. Picked up a Mihec 150 gr Cramer HP and cast up about 100 earlier in the week.

My alloy is 92-4-4 and water dropped (recycled range lead, monotype, and pewter). I usually age at least a week and they are around 22 BHN when I shoot them. These boolits were softer, having aged only 3 days. Best guess, around 18 BHN. These were sized to .401, lubed with Carnauba Red, and weighed about 153 gr after lubing.

My FFL has a range, so when I picked the gun up, I had 60 rds for a "getting acquainted" session (I was playing hookey from work on a Fri afternoon). 30 rds of Win Ranger 180 gr JHP and 30 rds of cast (10 rds ea .3, 6.7, and 7.0 gr Power Pistol, CCI 500 primers).

Quick field strip, inspection, and cleaning, then on to the firing line. Shot the Win first for a baseline. Nice. Then the cast (no de-coppering as yet). Equally nice. Checked for leading. A few flecks that came out with a dry brush and dry patch.

I'll follow up with a separate post in a couple of weeks (going on vacation for a week). I'll repeat the Power Pistol loads and also do some HS-6 and HP-38 loads. Also pour some heavier boolits.

Edited to add:

When loading, I started with the Lyman powder-through M die for expansion. After about 3 rds, I decided the spud was not expanding deep enough into the case. I couldn't seat boolits as deep as I wanted. They got pushed back up. Likely swaging the base, I figured. I used an RCBS expander ahead of the powder-through. That got me the COL I was looking for (1.090).

40Super
10-13-2012, 03:24 PM
Check the size of your '96 Beretta barrel, of the 8 or so that I've slugged all were .4025 to .404. They have a nasty habit of leading if the bore is rough like several of mine were plus being oversize(a good metal polishing helped tremendously). I have to size my .40cal to .4035-.404 for my current 2 barrels. It annoys me because my XDM won't chamber them so I have 2 .40cal sizes.

GREENCOUNTYPETE
10-13-2012, 06:50 PM
i use 6.3 gr of power pistol i leave them as cast .403, they just barely chamber but they do and work fine

but i don't use them in an xdm

9.3X62AL
10-14-2012, 01:59 AM
Check the size of your '96 Beretta barrel, of the 8 or so that I've slugged all were .4025 to .404. They have a nasty habit of leading if the bore is rough like several of mine were plus being oversize(a good metal polishing helped tremendously). I have to size my .40cal to .4035-.404 for my current 2 barrels. It annoys me because my XDM won't chamber them so I have 2 .40cal sizes.

I got lucky with my Beretta 96 (mfg. ~2000)--its grooves were a tight .401", and I got no leading from its barrel with .401" castings.

popper
10-14-2012, 05:59 PM
How much machining did the 41 cal M spud need? Is it too long?

geargnasher
10-15-2012, 10:39 PM
Ok, to make a long story longer. I decided that I wanted to shoot cast boolits in my Springfield XDM 40S&W. Bought a Lyman 401638 2 place mold and Lyman's .401 sizer die. Casted and sized around 100 boolits with WW and 2* tin. Shot 30 reloads and checked the barrel. Leaded bad, back to front. Cleaned and decoppered until crystal clear clean. Slugged barrel, .401. Throat is .402. Put a mic on cast boolits, .398-.401. Ordered custom mold from Tom @ Accurate Molds machined to throw boolits at .4035. Honed Lyman sizer die out to .402. Checked new boolits after sizing, right at .402. Ordered a 41 Mag expander spud and machined it down to leave the cases expanded to .400. Loaded dummy rounds with new boolits and cases expanded to .400, then pulled boolits and measured them. Still .402, no swaging from the cases, even after a very slight taper crimp. Sized a few new boolits and lubed with Javalina 50/50 Bees wax and Alox. (NRA formula) Loaded 30 more rounds with 5.8grs. of 231 with this new 165 gr. TC Boolit (around 1000 FPS) and went to shooting. Checked barrel after the 30 rounds. Still leading, although not quite as bad. I'm up for any ideas that might get me shooting cast boolits in this gun without leading. Higher BHN? Different lube? Hotter or cooler powder charge? Thanks in advance.[smilie=b:

If your boolits are still larger than groove dimension after seating/crimping and pulling them, then you have that issue licked, which is pretty much THE issue with the .40.

However, there is another common issue with plastic .40 S&W pistols: The leade (or lack thereof). Often there is a sharp step between the end of the chamber and the rifling, right at the origin of the rifling. This second step tends to shave lead from the boolits as they engrave rather than swage them into the barrel. The shaved lead gets smeared down the bore.

A properly lubed, properly fitted boolit propelled with the correct pressure curve for the alloy can traverse an amazingly rough bore with little problem through many, many rounds.

Remember: If you get leading, you either have shaving, abrasion, or most likely GAS LEAKS.

Gear

Alzado
10-15-2012, 11:36 PM
How much machining did the 41 cal M spud need? Is it too long?

Yes, the spud was a bit long. I measured the lenght of the part of the bullet that will be in the case when seated then added a few thousanths before putting a pretty good taper on the end. I machined the spud down to around .401. Far enough to leave the cases at .400 after springback. I took off small amounts and kept checking on sized cases until I had it right at around .401. Sounds harder than it really is. You could do it with a drill and a file without much trouble. Just remember to do all of your measuring from the flare part of the spud.

Alzado
10-15-2012, 11:51 PM
As far as the leade, the barrel has a smooth and tappered start to the riflings. I polished the bore real good with JB bore polish and backed the powder charge down one grain and fired 30 more rounds. No leading!!!!!!. I'm going to mess around with the charge from this point. Since I did these two things, I'm not sure which one or both fixed the problem. I've never had a pistol so tempermental with cast boolits as the 40 S&W but its been kinda fun figuring things out. Thanks to all who have added their 2 cents worth, every little bit of info helps. By the way, the mold I had Tom at Accurate Molds build me is one of the SWEETEST pieces of art I've ever seen. Cataloge #40-165F. Thanks Tom!

9.3X62AL
10-16-2012, 12:55 AM
Yessir, Accurate Molds--Imported From USA. Our minders here in the People's Republic and Dictatorship of the Proletariat California still allow us to purchase them.