358091 mold ?

[dmdracer]

I picked up the above Lyman mold yesterday, this is my 2nd mold ever and I have an Rugar cp 100 .357 pistol and thought the two might be good for one another.
Being the newbie here on casting, you might remember encourageing me recently to "just do it " with my Marlin 30-30, which is working out good, I'm learning alot and enjoying my casting sessions and whats really amazing is they shoot pretty good, anyway, I've had this pistol for years and only have shot maybe a box of 38 and 357 thru it, so my new casting experience has me wanting to expand to pistols.
I played with this last evening and cast up maybe 200 boolits, they look good but that is as far as I have got, I need to get dies, powder, etc. so what do you recommend for this combnation as far as sizing, powder etc....remember I'm new at this so please treat me like the first grader in explaining....what type of accuracy would be expected, fps, you know, the basic stuff that a newbie might ask.
I also have a Desert Eagle in .44...the guy I got the above mold says he has a .44 mold also but in my search about this I saw they do not recommend CB for the DE, why is that? I'd like to reload for this some day too, perhaps I'd be better to learn that process with "j" boolits first....learn me please.
I curently handload for .223, AR and Savage bolt gun and the 30-30 Marlin, never loaded for pistols b4.
thanks again for your help

Dave

on a personel note...my kids mom has cancer, not good...I ask all believers to please say a prayer for her, she is a wonderful lady and does not deserve this, I can't get her off my heart
thank you

[carpetman]

dmdracer---Treat you like a first grader--ok. See Dave get Lyman manual. Dave can read. See Dave read,read,read. Dave can read Lyman Manual. Lyman manual tells Dave some starting loads. See Dave read starting loads in Lyman manual? Read Dave Read. BTW when I read it,I selected Unique as a powder and it has worked pretty good.

[dmdracer]

dmdracer---Treat you like a first grader--ok. See Dave get Lyman manual. Dave can read. See Dave read,read,read. Dave can read Lyman Manual. Lyman manual tells Dave some starting loads. See Dave read starting loads in Lyman manual? Read Dave Read. BTW when I read it,I selected Unique as a powder and it has worked pretty good.

Carpetman....you are correct, sorry to bother you with my post, I'll not do that again...just don't send me to the principal...please.
my mind is somewhere else.
Guess we really don't need this forum....most people can read that Lyman manual, yeah thats a slam, but you are right, I need to read, read and read again...guess I'm a little shocked at your way of putting the truth to me...thought I was on another forum by mistake for a second.....little over sensitive right now on my part. no problem though, I'll get thru it.
Dave

[tall grass]

Dave

Sorry to hear about the kid's mom.

I'll keep all of you in my prayers.

Jim

[grumble]

Sorry 'bout that, Dave. People usually get more courteous replies on this forum.

If we were to reply with a list of various pet loads for your 357 and 44, you'd get loads for OUR guns, not yours. Best bet for you is to look in your powder cabinet and decide which powder(s) you want to use, then either look them up in one of the reloading books or go to the powder manufacturer's web site for load data for the weight boolit you want to load. Generally speaking, you can use the start loads listed for jacketed bullets for your cast boolits of similar weight. If you have some concern about a specific load, come on back and ask about it.

If you don't have any pistol powders at all, I'd recommend that you get a pound each of Unique and 2400 -- they can be used in almost anything, so they won't go to waste.

There are as many opinions as there are people on this forum about what equip[ment to start with. Me, I'd recommend a Lee mold that you like the looks of, and the push-through sizers one thousandth larger than the groove diameters of your bores.

Sorry to hear about your family problems -- hope the lady gets well soon.

[BCB]

Don’t know what weight that particular mold casts. But with my 358429 bullet (170+ grains) used in a Ruger Security-Six handgun, it prefers the slower burners. AL-8 (Blue Dot burn rate), SR-4759, WC-820 (#9 burn rate), 2400, and H-110 are examples of the slower powders it prefers. The fastest powder that has been O.K. is Scot-453. So, if that mold of yours casts heavier bullets, the slow burners might be a place to start. Good-luck…BCB

[NVcurmudgeon]

Dave, Can't add anything useful to what Grumble said, but I'll take this opportunity to say that your kid's mom will have our prayers. Bill & Fran

[David R]

You have to decide what velocity you want. You can shoot full house loads with gas check boolits (some say you don't need em). You can shoot 38s or some where inbetween. If you are after Economy, go for a faster powder. Like Bullseye, red dot or WW 231. If you want to make light and hot loads, go for Unique. If you want em really hot go for Blue dot, 2400, WW296 or IMR 4227. There are many others too, but those are the standard to me.

Handguns are easier to load, Straight wall cases, carbide dies, pretty much ONE boolit seating depth. (crimp in the groove). As long as the primer fires every time, and there is the right amount of powder, things will be fine.

[Leftoverdj]

Folks, this ain't one to fight over. With a 148 gr WC you try 2.8 grains of Bullseye or 3.1 grains of 231 in .38 Special cases. You might wind up some place else, but that's where you start.

[Wayne Smith]

Dave, I remember your work with your 30-30. The .357 won't be much different. Follow the Cast Bullet data based on the weight of your cast bullet. Just load and shoot, start light and work up. Your Ruger can handle and reasonable .357 Mag. load, probably more than you might want to use with a plain based bullet.

I think the Desert Eagle is gas operated, I know the Widley is/was. If it is, that is part of the reason, the rest probably has to do with the velocities they are producing with that gun. I've never had one or used one, so I'm guessing.

[waksupi]

Dave, Ray was just taking you literally on the first grader explaination request. I'll bet he missed the last of the post, or the response would have been a bit different, I'm sure. My best wishes for you and yours.


Carpetman....you are correct, sorry to bother you with my post, I'll not do that again...just don't send me to the principal...please.
my mind is somewhere else.
Guess we really don't need this forum....most people can read that Lyman manual, yeah thats a slam, but you are right, I need to read, read and read again...guess I'm a little shocked at your way of putting the truth to me...thought I was on another forum by mistake for a second.....little over sensitive right now on my part. no problem though, I'll get thru it.
Dave

[BCB]

After Leftoverdj hinted that the 358091 (listed in Lyman as 35891--assuming that is the same bullet?) is a 148 WC, that changed my thoughts on powders a bit! I use the RCBS 38-148-WC which is the "same" as the Lyman slug.

Yep, bullseye and WW-230 are very good choices. Unique has also worked well, but I hate Unique (it is a personel problem--mostly not shared by others!!). And, maybe a bit strange, is the fact that WC-820 and AA#9 (maybe they are the same powder--at least in my eyes they are) also have performed well for near 1100 fps loads from my Security-Six. Maybe that ain't the purpose of the WC's but it worked for me. Again, Good-luck...BCB

[carpetman]

dmdracer--Dave I did read the last part of the post. I'm no preacher,Doctor,Chaplain,social worker type or anything that has words for situations like yours,so I left it alone. I do hate to hear about such. Giving you answers is no bother--that was not my point. My point is if you don't have a Lyman Manual,you probably need one. If you do have a Lyman Manual,you probably would not have asked. Am I correct that you don't have one? My answer was tailored to your request BTW.

[Buckshot]

............Dave, I know Carpetman well. You may trust me that there was nothing but fun on his mind when he made that post, and he was looking for nothing but a chuckle from you. He's not a mean guy for no reason. Well, except to me. He treats me pretty bad, but I'm used to it.

First off, no cast in the Israeli Auto Peetol. The gas passages are not available to be cleaned and once clogged are a sumuvagun. About the only remedy is to shoot hot jacketed (I alsmost said hot condoms :D) loads while you treat it like a pump gun until it begins to function again.

I don't know what the 358091 design is. However take one and stick it in a cylinder just as it is. If it just falls through, the forecast is not favourable for tons of blissfull shooting enjoyment! If it sticks a bit, or a little more then a bit, Tumble lube those rascals up, stick'em in some 357 mag cases with 3.3grs of W231 and see what happens. Like I said though, I dont know what it is, so if it's a GC design and sans GC it might, or it might not behave.

The mother of your children, and you will be in my thoughts. I'm sure you would accept the burden she's carrying if you could. Medicine these days can do some wondrus things. An important job is to be strong for the kids.

..............Buckshot

[floodgate]

Dave (and Buckshot and all):

#358(0)91 is a 148-gr. wadcutter with three grease grooves and a crimp groove and a slight bevel base; you can see it on CASTPICS. It was introduced in Lyman Annual Product Catalog (NOT Handbook) #44 in 1962. The "91" cherry number was borrowed from a long-obsolete #40091 round ball, back when Ideal used the full numbers for these.

This info comes from the "master list" I am compiling, covering all of the Lyman / Ideal mould listings I can find from 1897 (Handbook #9, where the current mould numbering system was introduced) down through the latest 2005 Annual Catalog from Lyman. I'm almost done with this project, and it will go to Beagle for his "Cast Boolit Book" for further editing and packaging. My format is too messy to pass out at this point - I'm using an obsolete MS Database program, and loses formatting when I try to send it, and runs 110 pages in hard copy (WITHOUT pictures!) - but I am happy to answer questions like this, either posted here or via PM.

Doug Elliott, aka "floodgate"

[9.3X62AL]

My thoughts and prayers for the lady and you all, DMD.

Wadcutters can do strange things downrange past 60 yards or so. Little sister is a pretty intense PPC shooter, and those 38 Special WC's just go through the same hole at 50 yards and all closer ranges very reliably. It is a pretty well-established observation that once those boolits run another 10-15 yards, the small groups become wide patterns, and in some cases the boolits start getting sideways through targets. Dunno why that is--but I've run A LOT of both 32 and 38 WC's downrange, and both calibers show this tendency to some extent. Not a knock on the boolit--it was designed to cut small groups and clean holes on paper targets to 50 yards, and it does this quite well. If your shooting is going to extend past such distances, a semi-wadcutter design like a Keith or Thompson might be indicated.

Wadcutters do their best work at or under 850 FPS, and the loads given above using Bullseye or 231 are pretty much standard--giving 750-825 FPS depending on barrel length, throat/barrel internal dimensions, and barrel/cylinder gap. Both powders are very economical to use in these applications--Buckshot's load of 3.3 x 231 in the 357 cases will yield over 2000 loads per pound of powder. Since you indicated "first-grader" status in this venue, it should be noted that most wadcutter designs and the powder weights used in same are predicated upon "flush-seated" boolits--that is, the bullet is seated fully inside the case until the boolit front edge is "flush" with the case mouth edge. A light roll crimp to the case mouth is often applied at this time.

[David R]

Leftoverdj hit it just right. My dad has a S&W 38 that WAS a 38 S&W, now converted to a 38 special. 2.8 grains of Bullseye and a wadcutter OR a SWC was a blast to shoot. We used shoot at the dump when there was one, and it was POP.......Klink. We could shoot it all day and hit what we were aiming for almost every time. Great load.

My first handgun was a Dan Wesson 357. It took me a while to realize you couldn't shoot swaged boolits or even plain base cast boolits at 357 velocities. I loaded em HOT and not. Still the best one to shoot was my Dads 38 with 2.8 of bulls eye. Once I started casting my own, I wore the 1/2 a wesson out and sent it back to Dan Wesson 3 times for rebuilds. All were free except the rebluing.

Floodgate, I had a Lyman DEWC. Double ended Wadcutter with 2 LARGE grease grooves. No front or back of the boolit like the newfangled wadcutters. Sold the mold after I sold the Dan Wesson. I think it held more lube in one groove than my 45 colt boolits.

[BLTsandwedge1]

Hiya DMDRacer,

I've cast a bajillion .38 wadcutters- having both 10-cavity and a 6-cavity H&G moulds. I like slinging those 500 pound moulds for a couple of hours- makes a good case of carpel tunnel syndrome. Goes through a bucket of wheel weights like a dose of salts.

I like 3g W231 in reg'lar .38 special cases with a light roll crimp ala Deputy Al. Some like the magnum cases because they won't leave a dirt ring in the cylinder short of the throat- as .38s in a .357 eventually will. I clean the revolvers every time they go out- voila- no dirt ring. And .38 special cases can be had by the ton.

I have both Lyman and Lee sizing stuff- the Lee Liquid Earwax and push-through die make quick work out of sizing a thousand or so wadcutters. There's nothing I own that won't shoot 'em- from S&W to Colt and others. Economy? I load a box of 50 for a hair more than the cost of primers- about $1.60.

Regards......

[floodgate]

David: I don't see a two-groove DEWC, but there was a Lyman #35863, 148 grs. in No. 2 alloy, introduced in the same year as #35891 - 1962 - and dropped after 1991, that has three symmetrically-spaced grooves. Did you maybe use the third one as a crimp groove? Again, the cherry number was recycled from that of an obsolete RB mould, in this case #32363. floodgate

[David R]

Yes it did have 3 grooves, I was thinnking about it last night after I posted. The only way to tell the front was I lubed one grove that went in the back.

I pushed it all the way in the case and crimped on the front of the boolit. If I remember right, it was sort of a bevil base. Must have been an easy one to make, no sharp edges, no crimp groove, or any type of nose.

Thanks Flood

[dmdracer]

Hello all again,
first let me thank you all for the prayers and kind words.
I'll not expose any personel concerns again on these boards, This is a cast/gun board and not a church so I'll not make that mistake again...nuff said.
I appreciate all the suggestions on where to start/look into on the requested info I seek. I realize that "your" loads are for "your" gun but I'm not too stupid to think they are perfect for "my" gun, but it helps "me" to get a ballpark idea for where I might want to start and work from there, perhaps as I gain more knowledge and experience, I will become more comfortable in my decision on where to start on my future projects.....I have found that people who have vast experience in a certain field tend to forget how it "was" when "they" started out and sometimes say things that...well, just don't come out right to some of us less experience people trying to learn.

Carpetman, I'm sure your an ok guy, and some here felt the need to confirm that in their replys and remarks like " Sorry 'bout that, Dave. People usually get more courteous replies on this forum". Hey, we all do things sometimes that appears different than what we meant to say or do and since I've been around here, I have not seen this type of reply as I have seen on some other forums where they thrive on insults and disagreements, etc.....sooooo, lets just drop it and be friends and should I ever have the oppourtunity to help you and any others I will do my best, heck, if this was a racing forum I'm sure I could help...I have been in racing, Indy cars, stock cars, sprints, etc for over 30 years so I know that field but I'm trying to learn this cast thing.
Oh, yes I do have the Lyman book but I'm lazy sometimes and to be honest... I never thought to look in there to see where to start, besides they show a curve in 231 of 2.8 to 4.6 so since I'm also frugle, I saved my self 20 cents in powder by you all posting some loads :) lil humor there, I know very lil... we ok Carpetman? cool.

Deputy Al, you said.."it should be noted that most wadcutter designs and the powder weights used in same are predicated upon "flush-seated" boolits--that is, the bullet is seated fully inside the case until the boolit front edge is "flush" with the case mouth edge. A light roll crimp to the case mouth is often applied at this time." The Lyman book stated trim length on case is 1.149 and OAL for this 35891 WC is 1.317, dif of .168" so are you saying it's better to push it in the case to "flush" or will that .168" make any difference?

Again, my thanks for all your help, someday I'll take those rookie strips off the back...uh..sorry thats in racing, I'm so confused... :)
Dave

[StarMetal]

Carpetman Ray...I was wondering about tuxedo's and well, was wondering what size is your straight-jacket?

Joe

[Scrounger]

Deputy Al, you said.."it should be noted that most wad cutter designs and the powder weights used in same are predicated upon "flush-seated" boolits--that is, the bullet is seated fully inside the case until the boolit front edge is "flush" with the case mouth edge. A light roll crimp to the case mouth is often applied at this time." The Lyman book stated trim length on case is 1.149 and OAL for this 35891 WC is 1.317, dif of .168" so are you saying it's better to push it in the case to "flush" or will that .168" make any difference

What works best in your gun is correct. In a revolver, it probably won't make any difference at all. But if you're going to be feeding these through a lever action or a S&W Model 52, I've found that a little bit of bullet sticking out helps feeding. So I'd start seating them to the 1.317" dimension, then seating them deeper only if you have a problem. Whatever works is right. And keep your cats under guard or CarpetMan will give you a visit...

[grumble]

"...I have found that people who have vast experience in a certain field tend to forget how it "was" when "they" started out..."

Compared to others here, I certainly don't have "vast" experience. Still, I sure wish I could forget some experiences in GETTING that experience! <GGG>

Seriously though, as you work up different loads and see how they react to various changes you make (powder weights, seating depths, crimps, different types of brass, etc), is worth a lot more than anyone just telling you of their experiences. Like, say, welding, you can read about it until your eyes cross, but until you actually DO it, hear the sizzle, see the puddle, and cut it to see how you did, you really don't know what welding is, even though you can answer all the questions anyone might ask. Not a whole lot different in working up a load; you gotta SEE it and DO it.

This will probably get a lot of flak, but it seems to me that many, if not most, of my more accurate loads are right at or just below the max listed for a given powder and boolit. If you want to take shortcuts in your own load development, start in the middle of the powder range and work up. If that doesn't work, work down from that middle spot. If you change any major components or seating depths, start all over. If you don't enjoy the process of reloading and shooting, most gunshows will have pretty inexpensive "generic" reloaded ammo that might be just what you need. OTOH, if you do enjoy the process, load development is a great excuse to buy more powder!

[Scrounger]

Carpetman Ray...I was wondering about tuxedo's and well, was wondering what size is your straight-jacket?

Joe

Joe, please. You know how sensitive Ray is... :wink: [smilie=l:

By the way, I see you have a healthy lead over Buckshot in the race for the most posts. You are the Babe Ruth of Cyber posting...

[David R]

I keep at least one of my reloading manuals in the bathroom. I'm a reader. I have learned a lot there. :)

[carpetman]

dmdracer--Dave,yes we are cool,always were in my books. You took my response as smart-assed and that was not the intent at all. It could easily work out that you get several suggested powders---none of which you have,so you go buy powder,but the book might also list several powders you do have. BTW I did suggest Unique---you have any? For sure, I for one,do want to know about personal problems like you posted. I said I did not respond about it due to my own ineptitude at what to say at times like those.

[dmdracer]

Ray.. thanks
No I don't have any of the powders mentioned, I only started handloading for the .223 this past year and have went thru around 15 lbs. of Varget and 2230c and a couple of h335 so this is all new to me. With the incouragement mentioned b4 about my 30-30 and cast boolits from you all I did buy a lb. of 4756 and have been using that, seems to work well. Now I'm looking at a pistol using cast, so for me, I'm starting all over again and have never handloaded anything for pistols.
I know there are plenty of powders that could possibly get the job done, rich I'm not so if I could get a few possibles, which thankfully I got from above post...just makes good sense to me.
I'm going for the 231 and will start there, should be fun.

A lady surgeon I know told me they would say when she was in school to.."watch one, do one and teach one" I'm in that "watch one" and a little "do one" now, I will "teach one" in the future
thanks everyone

Dave

[Scrounger]

If you have 2230 powder, that is an excellent choice for loading the .30-30. You can get 170 to 180 grain cast bullets up almost to full factory velocity. Some well known gun writer wrote a magazine article several years ago wherein he said AA2230 was his first choice of powders in .30-30 with cast bullets.

[9.3X62AL]

Racer--

Scrounger gave good advice above, no need to repeat that bit.

If you've used multiple pounds of propellant in the 223, you are anything but a newbie. The 38 Special/357 Magnum shares the 223's user-friendliness for the reloader, and its intrinsic accuracy. Both calibers also made fine use of lead boolits LONG before the j-word things became available.

[D.Mack]

One thing I may hve missed, but did anyone mention lube? This bullet at low velocity, doesnt need much, but does need some, usually only the bottom groove,and is easy to over lubricate, (see all the grease on my barrel, and the wall next to where I am shooting) At higher velocity you may need all the lube you can carry, but at lower velocity, alittle goes a long way. For plinking, cans, and small furry things, you may get away without sizing, and smearing a litle on with your fingers, or alite coat of lee liquid alox. After you have tried a few let us know how it went. D.MACK

[dmdracer]

Scrounger, I have used the 2230c in my 30-30 but it was with some Hornaday "j" bullets and yes it seemed ok but never really developed the load, wife would not shoot it.....too much for her shoulder. I went looking for the reduced load thing and stumbled onto cast boolits etc...she now enjoys shooting it.
D.mack, lube is new to me also....the first I shot in the 30-30 I had some leading, I had some Lee alox and used one coat and learned that lesson quick, I now use 2 to 3 coats.
As I said I cast some of these "38 WC" last week and last night I put the 2nd coat on them, don't want that leading thing again, so your saying maybe one coat would work for low velocity?
That stuff sure is messy, thinking of trying the "felix" lube...all in good time though.
I put one boolit as cast in the cyl as suggested and it would not fall thru so I figure thats a good thing, lube um, load um and shoot them is the plan...we'll see :)
thanks guys
Dave

[Willbird]

Not speaking about anybody that posted, but what is wrong with the folks that just refuse to buy even ONE loading manual ??

Heck I feel funny if I can't cross check a load in at least 3 modern manuals and hopefully a couple antuque ones too.

Bill

[carpetman]

Willbird,I fully agree a person should have more than one manual and cross check them. I also agree keep the old manuals and use them too. The one time I didnt do such,I got into trouble. Seems that Lyman listed let's say 30 grains and also gave a very low pressure. Getting 30 grains into the case(it was a .223)was very difficult. Seeing as how the listed pressure was so low,I figured no way of overcharging. Wrong. Locked up the gun and barrel had to be removed. After the fact,I cross referenced and about 25 grains was max listed in several other books.

[Willbird]

As carpetman well knows, and others do too, often one needs to load a style or weight of bullet and powder combination that is not exactly spelled out in any manual, the more of them you have the better you can fine tune a starting load that won't break things.


Bill

[Leftoverdj]

DM, .38 Special WC at normal velocity levels need only a trace of lube, and almost any lube will work. A single coat of Liquid Alox is a plenty. I have grown quite fond of Johnson's Paste Wax. You need the bullets just warm enough to melt the wax and then tumble just as you would with LA. It's much less messy and a lot cheaper. Lee's case lube also works. Just roll the bullets across a charged lube pad as you would cases and give them a few minutes to dry. Very handy when you just need to lube a hundred or so bullets and you need them now.

As you found out, rifle velocities are a different story, but down around 800 fps, almost anything is good enough.

[StanDahl]

My old Colt Police Positive (38 Spec.) really likes this boolit with 3.5 grains of 231 and Felix lube on 2 grooves. My .357 Ruger Blackhawk was not as impressed, but I haven't tried very hard to get it right. The highest load I tried, 4.2 grains of 231 (38 spec. case) worked better than other loads with this bullet, but that might not work as well as a caseful of matchheads. Stan