Lyman 311041 or 311291 ??

[Shiloh]

It's time to acquire a mould for the .30-30. I've narrowed it to the moulds mentioned above. This is because I like the fatter diameter .30 bullet. Would be used mainly for target shooting and plinking, although I read that either have taken both whitetail and mulies.

Lee has a mold that is similar to the 311041 called the Lee 309-170F. I'm concerned that it will drop a boolit smaller than .309. My current Lyman 311299 drops a .310 boolit with a .299 +or- nose, turns in the Krag and '03. Because of this, I went to the 314299 sized at .311 for the Krag and '03


Can any of you forum users in the know give me the nose diameters?? Any experience in the '03 or Krag with either of these boolits? This would be primarily a .30-30 boolit but it would be nice to tinker with though.

I sure welcome input from those of you in the know. LOTS of knowledgeable folks at this forum :-D

Shiloh :castmine:

[pumpguy]

I can not give you any dimensions for either or data for 311291, but, I have shot jillions of the 311041 in my 30-30 336 MG. It is very accurate when I size it at
.311. 17 or 18 grains of 2400 and I get about 1-1/2'" groups at 100 yards.

[Char-Gar]

What you ask can't be done. Both of the mentioned molds have been in the Ideal/Lyman lineup for many years and the bullets produced from the various molds differ in size. The nose size will also depend on your alloy, the temp and casting technique.

I can tell you what my molds will do with my alloy in my pot doing it my way. That won't give you any useful information to help you buy a mold.

Yep..it is a crap shoot! But hey... A large bullet can be sized down and a small bullet can grow if the mold is "Beagled".

[looseprojectile]

About forty three years ago a friend wanted me to develop a cast boolit load for his .308 Model 88 Winchester serial # 426. I made up some fairly hard 311 41 GC boolits. I picked a medium load for 30 30 J word bullets and used new .308 cases and 4895 surp. powder. See I still remember some things.
First load I tried. Five shots in three quarters of an inch at one hundred yards with a Balvar 8 scope. I was done. Velocity must have been in the 1700s.
At that time I used only the old black ideal lube.
If I get a chance to talk to him I will see if he still remembers what the load was.
He is over seventy now and I am close behind him.
BTW I still have that mold. I use it in nearly all .30 caliber rifles. Excellent in the K 31 Swiss if you address the short throat issue.
Happy shooting

[quack1]

For what its worth, my sc 311291 measures .2959 across the nose 90* to the parting line. The first band measures .3105 90* to the parting line. Alloy was wheel weights + a little tin, casting temp 700-725. Keep in mind- dimensions will change with changes in alloy and temps even with the same mold. Love the bullet, shoots well in anything I have tried it in.

[joeb33050]

Can any of you forum users in the know give me the nose diameters?? Any experience in the '03 or Krag with either of these boolits? This would be primarily a .30-30 boolit but it would be nice to tinker with though.

I sure welcome input from those of you in the know. LOTS of knowledgeable folks at this forum :-D

Shiloh :castmine:
I've never had a 31141 or 311291 that had a nose that was .300" or larger, and you'll find that the chamber end of the barrel gets bigger than the rest of the bore in not-many-shots; so I've never had one of these molds that cast bore-ride bullets. BUT both molds cast bullets that shoot pretty well. With some fiddling and a reasonably accurate rifle AVERAGEs of 5 shot 100 yard groups under 2" are easily attainable.
This makes me wonder if we need those bore riders, both these molds are closer to the SS bullets than to the bore rider 311/314299s.
Maybe nose diameter in long-bodied bullets don't matter that much.
joe brennan

[felix]

True, Joe. The longer the boolit is, the less the angle of error. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

My 2-banger version of #311291 (vintage 1983 or so) casts with more diametric variation due to temp and alloy than any other mold I own. Pure lead run hot (making cores for PP boolits) show .298" noses and .3095" drive bands. Linotype poured at 700* goes nearly .301" at the nose and almost .312" on the drive bands. Alloys between those extremes show a linear reduction/expansion, keyed to percentages of tin and antimony--more enrichment = more diameter, and the cooler the metal, the fatter the casting falls. At temps over 750*, my mold sets up SBS (Shrunken Bullet Syndrome, as per Dan at Mountain Molds) with a vengeance--so Bruce B's softpointing regimen won't likely work. My mold is quirky and cranky--but if you manage good boolits from it, they shoot GREAT in the 30-30 and 30-06. FORGET Beagling this one--fully closed, I still have to flare Hornady gas checks to get them on the shank. The mold is kind of a PITA, once you think about it. I suspect my mold is an exception to general behavior of Lyman molds, I have about 20 of them of varying ages and calibers and they generally aren't real cranky. Maybe it got made late on Friday before a holiday weekend, or early on the Tuesday after.

I think there may be something to Joe's assertion that a long body could compensate for a loose-fitting bore riding nose. I don't have science to support that belief, but it makes sense empirically.

[Char-Gar]

I have 4 Lyman/Ideal 311291 of various vintages. None of them is newer than 30 years old. When cast from No. 2, they run:

.300
.301
.302
.299 (this is an old 311291U)

The one that ran .301 was a SC and I sent it to Buckshot to have it made into a hollow point. That bullet will shoot.

The one that runs .302 is a DC and will also run .316 on the body. It is a very useful mold as it can be sized (body and nose) to fit a number of rifles.

When we speced the GB 311291, that is currently at Lee waiting it turn in line for production, we set the nose at .301 and the body at .312.

[Char-Gar]

Joe... I hold the opinion that the original Barlow designs (311291, 311284 etc.) have withstood the test of time because the body is as long as the nose and the nose fit isn't as critical as with true short bodies bore riders.

That is why we get good perormance from these bullet even if the nose is a thou or two under bore.

The body if straight with the nose, will support the nose without serious contact with the top of the lands. The nose will also get a little bump from the powder ignition.

[Slowpoke]

I have 3 moulds for the .311291

Mould A --2 cavity drops .310 and .301 both cavites--- 2006 production

Mould B - 2 cavity drops .310 and .301 in one cavity and .309 and .300 in the other.----2006 productiom

Mould C -single cavity drops .314 and .300 ---- ??? production

These dimensions are with WW + 2%

good luck

[Newtire]

It's time to acquire a mould for the .30-30.


Can any of you forum users in the know give me the nose diameters?? Any experience in the '03 or Krag with either of these boolits?

Hi Shiloh,
It's funny you should ask about nose diameters and the 311291. I had rotten luck withthat boolit in any gun until I mic'ed the nose and found it to be .298". This is way too small for my .30 guns but might work in one of those 7.5mm things?

I have 2 of those 311291 molds though and one casts them with .301" nose so have been shooting that one with 25 gr. H-4895 in the .30-06 with OK results and have begun to shoot it in the 7.62 X 54 with the mold "beagled and have gotten great results with 18 gr. 2400. This is not my favorite slug in the '06. I am more partial to the 311407 for a flat nose and the RCBS 165 gr. sil. is about the most accurate mold I own for the '06.

My preference in .30-30 would be the 311041 or the 311407. I have gotten very consistent results across the board with a variety of loads up to & including jacketted level loads using H-335 and Win. 748. I have loaded this up to max. loads in the .30-30 Ackley Improved and same excellent results. My 311041 mold measures .300 just ahead of the first band.

[beemer]

I have also been debating what mould to buy. My Marlin is a 336 made in 1949 it has a .300 land and a .309 groove. The rifle will not chamber a bullet if the nose is over .300, slightly smaller is better. I have a Lee 170 FP that cast at .302 and .311so it will not work. I ordered a Lyman 311291 that was a hunk of junk, the cavities were about .004 out of line. I called Lyman and returned the mould but the replacement was't much better. The blocks lined up but cavities were rough, you can see the mill marks on the bullet. The bullet shoots fine but nose is .302 and will not work in my 30-30. This was the second mould I have sent back. I was surprised at this as Lyman usually makes a great product , at least they tried to make it right. I finally borrowed a 311291 that has a .299 nose that works great in my Marlin. This does leave one wandering what to do. I would like to have a proper sized mould but I can't afford to throw $50 bills at a hit and miss.
beemer

[looseprojectile]

I just measured a boolit from my 311 41 Ideal mold. As all were sized and lubed I dont know what the diameter is from the mold, though the nose is .3005. All bands are .3105. No wonder it shoots so good. Have not noticed any resistance when chambering rounds though. My metal is ww with a couple of handfuls of lino strips in twenty pound pot. About twelve or fourteen BHN I guess. I am in the process of loading some in 30 30 for my grandson to shoot in a nice pre 64 Win. carbine. I suspect the older molds make better boolits.
Hope you get it right.

[Shiloh]

Went with the Lyman 311041 for the .30-30. I'll wait for another group buy on the 311291 to try in the '03

Shot the 314299 at 200yds at the SR-5 target from the bench Sunday with the '03.
A Lot of 10's and X's fewer 9's and even fewer out of the black in the 8 ring.

Who says cast boolits don't shoot!!::wink:

Shiloh :castmine:

[Leftoverdj]

While we are on this, what's the group's experience with the Lee C312-185-1R? It looks like a reasonable choice for sizing to .311 or so.

[beemer]

My Lee C312-185-1R cast at .313-.3035. I think the mix was ww with about 20% lino.

I poured a big batch several years ago and I shot them all up and need to do another run. I don't rember the exact weight but I think it was about 182 or 183.

[Shiloh]

While we are on this, what's the group's experience with the Lee C312-185-1R? It looks like a reasonable choice for sizing to .311 or so.

Thanks for the info on this mold. I have thought that this would also be a good bullet for the Krag and '03. What weight do you get with your alloy? :smile:

Shiloh :castmine:

[BruceB]

There are at least three 311291 moulds taking up space in my shop. Two are 2-cavity, and one is a 4-cavity "Ideal" version.

Looking to measure some bullets for this thread, I checked and found....NONE! So, why not....? I fired up the pot, intending to cast "a few", which turned into a full 1.5 hours of flat-out production with the 4-cavity mould. Should be well over a thousand bullets in that pail. NOW, I have some 291s!

Measuring all four bullets from a single mould-full, I find that all four are .2995-.300" just ahead of the forward band, and all four are .312 on the base band. Not bad at all, and the four all fall within a max weight spread of 0.4 grains.

As an example of the incredible variations found within this design over the years, one of my two-cavity 291 moulds throws bullets with NO parallel sides on the nose, instead tapering from the front band down to a much shorter and sharper-curved nose profile. In addition, the shank area is longer relative to the overall length, and the bands are only about HALF the width of those on a "true" 311291 bullet. Yet, it's still plainly marked as "311291".

I could understand a simple error in numbering the mould, perhaps, but I can't find a design that even looks like this one in any of the Lyman Cast Bullet Manuals (I have all three editions.) Some machinist must have indulged his creative abilities on that one....or else he drank too much at lunch.

[tom barthel]

I have the Le C309-170F and am pleased with it. I shoot it in a .30-30 improved and a .308. It shoots well in both. I have not measured the bullet but, I meet some resistance pushing it through a Lee push through .309 sizer. So, it's slightly larger than .309 as cast. I'm just starting to play with reduced or lighter loads. My first load for the .30-30 may have been a bit heavy for starting. I used 33 grains of 4895 and was VERY surprised. I managed a .75 group first try. It wasn't a planned accuracy test, it just happened. I haven't come close to that since. The problem is with me just not being as steady as I once was. I don't recommend that load as it is a bit stiff for starters. It did sell me on the bullet and mold. My only lube has been LLA. I've not had ANY leading yet.

[TAWILDCATT]

My mold is made at least before 1950 as I have had it since then.it is a tack driver in my 1903 made in 1913[low number].with 13 gr of red dot at 1680.have no idea what the dimentions are.lube it and shoot it.I also use it in my 30/30. next will be my 2 garands the 06 and 308.since my cataracts are gone I can see so much better.wish I was 50 yrs younger.:( :coffee: :Fire:

[44 WCF]

I have both the 311291 and the 31141 moulds, each is great, just kind of depends which I want to cast with. Somedays one out shoot the other, and then the opposite. I do have the new Lyman version the 311041 that I've had modified for my Magma Master Caster, it has spit out nearly 2500 bullets and they shoot well also and we shoot them them the most. We shoot them in everything from 30-30, Krag, 308, 06, even 300 Win mag and they shoot wonderfully in an old 721 300 H&H. I have a Lee Group buy 31141 6 cavity that I've never used.
We size .001-002 over couple shoot better at .311, but it's all fun with these moulds, just seems they shoot well in most anything.

[Shiloh]

Ordered the Lyman 311041 from Midway Monday AM with some other stuff. It arrived by UPS on Wednesday AM. I'm off today. Turned the Lee bottom pour on, went for coffee. Dunn Bros coffee, fresh roasted beans daily, and the furnace is just about ready....

:coffee: :-D

Shiloh :castmine: