Kennedy assasination documentary

[Jim]

Last night, I caught two, back to back, documentaries on Discovery channel about President Kennedy's assasination. Several very experienced professionals, including a world class competition shooter, assembled to determine if the final head shot could have come from the infamous grassy knoll. After much research and testing, they concluded that it was impossible.

The research team went to great lengths to recreate the entire scenario and reshoot it. I thought it was very well done.

HERE (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/13/jfk-forensics-tech.html) is a link to the site page with the story of the show. There is a link to the show in the article.

[Hamish]

Have watched (I believe) the same programs. Pretty convincing when you *exactly* replicate the shot and can produce the same injuries and even the bullet looked amazingly similar.

My neighbor across the street became involved in the case back in the '60's, and has interviewed all the characters involved, matter of fact, he carried on correspondence with Oswald's wife for many years. One thing that stuck out to me in our conversations concerned the ammo that Oswald used, that it was made in Alton, Il, and, as I recall, that it was from a lot that should not have been in the hands of the public.

[Jim]

..... One thing that stuck out to me in our conversations concerned the ammo that Oswald used, that it was made in Alton, Il, and, as I recall, that it was from a lot that should not have been in the hands of the public.

That's interesting. In the show, they said the ammo he used was military surplus. They had a box (maybe two?) of what they said was the exact same lot as what Oswald used. The box was the typical, light brown cardboard with the military style nomenclature inked on it.

The bullets were round nose FMJs. Going by the length of the bullet (shown after firing) and the caliber, I thought it was a bit long for caliber. It looked to me as if it might be 150 gr. or better. That's just a SWAG, though, as I'm not real familiar with that particular caliber.

[bruce drake]

The Kennedy Assassination gets revisited every Presidential Election Cycle. I don't advocate the murder of any person in politics just because I don't agree with their politics. I figure if we do our job in the election cycle they'll either get voted out of office or never get elected in the first place.

[bruce drake]

And 6.5 Carcano bullets are very long for caliber (Mil-surp is 160gr) Its what helps make them so accurate at long distances. Their Ballistic Coefficients are excellent compared to our stumpy 30 caliber 150gr FMJs.

Bruce

[Firebricker]

I've seen a few of these on the assassination one was made into two parts. The first was all the the evidence and explanations that it was Oswald alone. Second half showed how it couldn't have been only Oswald and countered everything from the first half. It was very well done and made me think we will never know.

FB

[Jim]

At the risk of entertaining conspiracy theories, some believe one of the alphabet agencies killed Kennedy and used Oswald as a scape goat by framing him. Like you said, Bricker, I don't think the truth will ever come out.

[ole 5 hole group]

I've seen a few of these on the assassination one was made into two parts. The first was all the the evidence and explanations that it was Oswald alone. Second half showed how it couldn't have been only Oswald and countered everything from the first half. It was very well done and made me think we will never know.FB

Too bad the autopsy was not done in Dallas, as Texas Law dictates. Yup, we'll probably never know.

[Reg]

I have been to Dallas and stood at that infamous open window. They have markers out on the grass areas showing where things happened in a time line. When each shot was fired and where the car was. Oswald did have Marine Corp basic training and trust me. Each shot was a very easy shot for anyone with qualifying basic training. The distances were not actually that far and the car was not moving that fast. As far as the time factor went, remember, he started with a closed bolt on a live round. Anyone who has shot competition with the Springfield rifle will know it can be done.
Could Oswald have made each and every shot.---Yes.
Was he alone-- I think so, at that time at least.
Were others than Oswald involved. That too , I think so but have no proof.
I doubt if we will ever truly know.

[Jim]

..... Each shot was a very easy shot for anyone with qualifying basic training. The distances were not actually that far and the car was not moving that fast.....

They said the distance to the target at the instant he fired the fatal head shot was 180 feet from the window, line of sight. They also said the speed of the car was right at 7 1/2 MPH. The rifle was fitted with a scope and the expert shooter they had on the show also said, for anyone that has had basic rifle training, this was an easy shot.

Oswald fired three shots but only two found the mark. Does anyone know where the third round went? The narrator didn't mention that.

[starnbar]

Not really sure about oswalds shooting ability his score card is online and he didn't do too good on qualifying as far as him being the only shooter or, the shooter you miss an important issue. This was shortly after the bay of pigs fiasco and fidel castro swore he would have kennedy killed. U.P. news was the only one who ran this threat and it was buried in the article. If it did come from cuba there would have been more than one lone shooter with a wwll relic and cheap scope.

[Jim]

Janet and I were just discussing this subject and she posed an interesting question.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they find Oswald's finger prints on the rifle? I seem to recall they did. That established the fact that Oswald had the rifle in his hands at some point. Is it possible that the rifle was fired by someone else after he handled the rifle? Or did they absolutely establish that he was the shooter?

Another question: Did they check the fired cartridge cases for prints?

I hope this thread doesn't degenerate, I'm enjoying this one.

[Goatwhiskers]

I remember well that the Warren Commission stated that there were aspects to the assasination that would not be made public during the lifetime of anyone living at the time. GW

There was another shooter on the grassy knoll,
We never walked on the moon,
Elvis ain't dead,
You ain't going crazy its all in your head.

Don't remember who sang that song. GW

[felix]

Jim, the important part of this affair is knowing whys, and not the whats. It's not nice to fool Mother Nature. Refer to Joe's threads. He is right on! ... felix

[Jim]

Jim, the important part of this affair is knowing whys, and not the whats. It's not nice to fool Mother Nature. Refer to Joe's threads. He is right on! ... felix

Help me out. Joe who?

[MtGun44]

Third round hit the curb, fragmented and found.

You guys should try to read the original report. My father bought a copy when it came
out and I have read it many times. Easy shot, rested on the window, the rifle was capable
of nickel sized groups at 60 yds, Oswald was a Marine Corps trained rifleman. The bullet
was an extremely long RN FMJ at moderate velocity - the single bullet theory is correct,
I have absolutely no doubt. Repeated careful looks have shown that Gov. Connally was
lined up and the shot that went through Kennedy's neck is the one that pentrated
the Gov's chest (nicked a rib) and then thru wrist and stopped in his thigh, about 2" in.
Subsequent movement worked the bullet out of the leg (blind wound found with bullet
on stretcher). Many say the Commission Report was a whitewash, but I find the
technical parts to be very well done and well documented.

No idea about the 'back story' of who and why, but as to the actual shooting - pretty
simple. Oswald from the School Book Depository with a 6.5 Carcano. Easy shot.

My brother bought two Carcano 1891 carbines about '66 (earlier model but very similar to the
one Oswald had) and we tested the possibility of the shots many times with iron sights
using Time Magazines (head images on cover frequently) as targets. We discovered that
not only was it not "an impossible shot" but pretty easy to do, and no sweat in the
time limit. Once we had done it each 3-4 times we quit. Also, when we both shot at
cans and such, his bullets would always be 3 times as deep in the FLa sand as mine
from my 7x57 Mauser, unless I had 175 RN FMJs (others were 139 Spire FMJ) when they
were still at least 50% deeper in the sand. Learned as a teen that the 6.5 160 RN FMJ
was a penetrating fool, so never doubted the "magic bullet" theory, I had seen it for
myself.

I have all the bits and am planning on building a very near replica of the Oswald rifle
for more personal testing, 40+ yrs later.

One fairly sensible theory is that Oswald was shooting at Connally who had recently
been the SecNav and had repeatedly rejected Oswald's letters asking for a change
from dishonorable discharge to general. In those days, many forget now, it was darn
near imposssible to get a job with a dishonorable. Oswald was DESPERATELY poor,
had a wife and child and was frantic to try to support them, and very embittered that
he could not get his DD upgraded to a GD. He also shot at a General a month or
so before Kennedy/Connally - they later dug a bullet from his Carcano out of the Gen's
home. Missed and buried the rifle, came back later and dug it up.

Bill

[Firebricker]

I remember well that the Warren Commission stated that there were aspects to the assasination that would not be made public during the lifetime of anyone living at the time. GW

There was another shooter on the grassy knoll,
We never walked on the moon,
Elvis ain't dead,
You ain't going crazy its all in your head.

Don't remember who sang that song. GW

I think that was Diamond Rio I remember it because Martain Sheen played the crazy preacher in the vidio. FB

[felix]

Jim, any thread by Boerrancher is absolutely correct in actuality and/or insinuation. ... felix

[Jim]

Third round hit the curb, fragmented and found.....

Thanks, Bill.

.....One fairly sensible theory is that Oswald was shooting at Connally who had recently
been the SecNav and had repeatedly rejected Oswald's letters asking for a change
from dishonorable discharge to general.....
Bill

Interesting. That makes me wonder if he was shooting at Connely both times. If he missed on the first shot and hit the president, what's the chance he missed again and hit the president again? I know that's really reachin', but it was just a thought.

Thank you, Felix. Didn't know which Joe you were referring to.

[35remington]

If you read Gerald Posner's Case Closed, it pretty well dovetails with what we know to be factual based on our experience as shooters ourselves.

First, the single bullet theory is not only plausible, but the actual fact. One bullet hit both men.

The first shot fired was a miss, likely deflected as the car was clearing a tree in the line of fire. This explains why the first bullet not only missed both men, but also missed the entire car. Second shot passed through Kennedy and Connally. Third shot was the infamous Zapruder head shot, rarely seen in video because of gruesomeness. The timing of the shots, and the intervals between them make the sequence and ordering undoubted. It happened no other way.

The "pristine" bullet was not pristine. It was flattened in cross section near the base, exactly what you'd expect from a bullet that passed through two bodies and struck Connally going sideways. It has been mischaracterized in several sources as having a "heavy jacket" but the commentators fail to realize the jacket is rolled over 90 degrees at the base. The jacket is actually fairly thin as are most all FMJ's of military persuasion.

The rifle was very adequately accurate; the Warren Commission described as quite accurate, and they were right. It was easily capable of the close range shot that was actually taken. Yes, I have a copy of the Warren Commission report.

Distance of the longest shot, which was the head shot, was around 210 feet. Seventy yards......a chip shot for anyone with any modicum of shooting experience.

Conspiracy theorists have so distorted and mischaracterized events to fit their theories that laughable suggestions have been advanced. One showed a picture of a grossly exaggerated manipulation of the bolt action rifle to prove how "slow" reloading it was. Multiple imaginary hand movements were shown in multiple pictures suggesting it took about 3 seconds per shot to reload the rifle.

One author (the idiotic Bonar Menninger) suggested that since the head shot was so explosive it was obvious that only rifles with Super High Velocity could do it, the Carcano's round being "way too slow." A Secret Service Agent with a newly issued, just released M16 accidentally discharged his rifle and shot Kennedy in the head, according to him. The Ballistic Expert he quoted apparently got his credentials out of a box of Cracker Jacks.

Starting with a loaded round, I myself can easily manipulate a bolt action rifle in the time frame for the three shots, which spanned a longer period of time than the "theorists" like to admit.

There is absolutely, positively NO other evidence that has held up under scrutiny that there was any other shooter besides Oswald.

None.

Attempts to prove otherwise are simply those ideas of individuals unwilling to accept clear evidence because the idea of "conspiracy" itself is so appealing.

The truth has already come out. We just don't want to believe it. As a government employee myself, expecting that the government has the competency to pull something like a conspiracy off, get away clean, and cover it up for fifty years boggles credulity. They just ain't that good, and they can't keep their mouths shut that long for it to be plausible.

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

The only fact I have trouble wrapping my brain around is from the Zapruder film, and that is the third and final shot.

It clearly shows an impact on Pres. Kennedy's head but his head snaps BACKWARD. If in fact
the fatal strike was from behind, the only direction it could have come from if Oswald was the
only shooter, his head would have snapped FORWARD.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[Firebricker]

Bill, The Connally as the target theory does have some merit but then it discounts the fact of it being a not overly difficult shot. The one thing that makes that theory seem possible to me though is it seems more likely that Oswald had more of a reason (lack of better word) to shoot Connally than President Kennedy. One other factor is no matter how doable the shot was there is no way to factor in just how nervous a guy would be. It would seem impossible to be any where close to calm. FB

[Jim]

Fascinating, 35! Thank you!

[35remington]

Jerry, bullet impact is far less decisive than muscular movement, especially involuntary muscular movement occasioned by severe brain trauma. People who are shot can and often do fall toward the gun. Bodily reactions trump the rather mild and usually insignificant momentum delivered through the partial release of the total momentum of the bullet on impact. No positive assertion can be made of the direction of bullet delivery based on a person's reaction to being shot.

That is no less true here. The Carcano round, in a rifle of Oswalds's weight, delivers only about 12 ft/lbs. of recoil. Given that the bullet delivered only part of that energy and momentum, that isn't a whole lot of "push" on what was an oblique impact on the side of the skull.

Notice that before the head shot, Kennedy's hands are near his neck in a neurologic reaction called Thorbun's Position, which is a reflexive movement that literally locks the hands near the head just under the chin, elbows at ninety degrees to the body. His hands are rising in reaction to the neck shot when he emerges behind the sign on the Zapruder film (see the high quality video on YouTube).

This Thorbun reaction occurs, involuntarily, to trauma near the spinal column, in this case resulting from the bullet impacting the muscles adjacent to the spinal column near C6, which fractured the vertebra even though it did not hit it. The position was not released, despite Jackie's attempts to push his hands down, until the head shot.

View this for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY

Enhanced Zapruder film also show's Connally's lapel flipping up at the bullet exited his chest and went into his wrist and thigh. This puts the second bullet's impact as the time just after the limousine cleared the sign. Simultaneous with Kennedy raising his arms to the Thorbun position.

A Carcano bullet, striking a fluid filled medium, has more than enough velocity to produce a shattering head wound, even with a full metal jacketed bullet. It helps to remind oneself that fluid is incompressible, and the results are just as expected.

[tomme boy]

Didn't they finally conclude that Kennedy was sitting on a high chair of sorts. So he could be better seen to the public. Then then the so called magic bullet penetrates in a straight line. I know I seen one of the shows detailing this.

[35remington]

What made the two men "in line" was the fact that Connally was sitting on a jump seat that was several inches inboard of the right door. And it wasn't so much that the seat Kennedy had was high, but rather that the one Connally was seated in was small and low......and well inside the door.

The inboard seating of Connally was responsible for the straight alignment.

[shotman]

The first shot was through a tree. Bullet hit curb
second was through neck that hit connely, he was in a rum seat that was right and higher of connely
third was head.
If you take a water mellon and shoot it with anything it will blow up in ALL places. jackie was going for brains on the hood . and had them in her hand at parkland.
If you look at nole it was not in line with the shots, or bullet would have got connely second time .
Ruby was on overpass and had gun drawed he may have been a back up

[popper]

Don't care about all the ballistics stuff.
after the bay of pigs fiasco and fidel castro swore he would have kennedy killed Well known statement in the US. Face down with Khrushchev was much more motive. Gutless the first time, 2nd probably went 'shoot that short range nuke at the east coast and Moscow will be glass'. I was on the 2nd trip to the blockade just before it was cancelled. This one wasn't going to be run by the state dept.

[wgr]

As far as who lot,s of people wanted Kennedy dead. mob. cuba. ussr.And he made the CID mad when he would,nt let them kick off the bay of pigs from us soil and would,nt support them.

[boatworks]

The only fact I have trouble wrapping my brain around is from the Zapruder film, and that is the third and final shot.

It clearly shows an impact on Pres. Kennedy's head but his head snaps BACKWARD. If in fact
the fatal strike was from behind, the only direction it could have come from if Oswald was the
only shooter, his head would have snapped FORWARD.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets


I don't know if anyone addressed this specifically, but I remember seeing a program about 30 years ago (CBS "White Paper"?) that explained some of the apparent contradictions and problems. They basically said , as they did experiments on cadavers, that the exit wound would give enough inertia for the head to snap in the direction of the gun fire.
Here's something, though, I've never seen explained.Recently, I saw a youtube version of the Zagruder(sic) film and it looks like the driver pulls out a pistol and fires it in Kennedy's direction. Does anyone know how the Warren commission explained that? I realize the driver must have been a Secret Service agent and should have been armed, but the video looks like he fires it a couple of times.

[SciFiJim]

Very interesting thread. I have learned a lot more than I ever knew before. Thank you 35remington for the in depth summary of events. I had never seen the film footage that you linked to. You are right, it is graphic!

[shooter93]

The shots were duplicated twice...but on a closed course with a very talented shooter. The 6.5 Carcano round used had at the time a jacket thickness around 10 thou thicker than typical so penetration isn't an issue nor the lack of deformity. There have been numerous forensic people who said it is common for a frontal shot to snap the head forward. The rifle and all evidence was handled very poorly after the crime but they din't have chain of evidence trails like used now......all that being said and although it may sound crude.....my first reaction to the shooting at the time was....that was a damned fine piece of marksmanship (no I did not wish Kennedy dead) which it was for sure as proven afterwards.
The only question for me has always been....was Oswald that good of lucky? I don't think so. Oswald was never charged. The few times you see him after the shooting he seems very confused and says he needs legal help and he wasn't charged and didn't know what was going on. He sounds and looks believable or he was a very good actor. We will never know the truth. Senator Spector is the last of the Warren Commission people but that commission's results are only based on what they were told.
My personal belief has always been, and I have no way of proving any of it it's just my weird logic at work, is that there was only one shooter but the shooter wasn't Oswald. His rifle was used, he was the fall guy and picked up afterwards with all things pointing to him.

[35remington]

"Damned fine bit of marksmanship?"

No. A perfectly pedestrian, ordinary bit of marksmanship. The car was going nearly straight away at 7.5 miles per hour. The head shot, the last shot, was at 210 feet. 70 yards. At 4X the president appeared as if he was less than 45 to 55 feet away at the time of the shots being fired. Since the two shots hit about 8 to 10 inches apart on the President's neck and head, that doesn't imply a really high standard of accuracy.....just that he was hit in the head and neck at what was close range for a rifle with a scope.

Oswald didn't have to be all that good......and he had a history of hunting behind him, as well as firing a rifle for the Marines.

Believe what you want, but a damned fine piece of marksmanship it was not.

The problem with "some other guy did it" theories is that there's absolutely nothing about the shooting itself that suggests the gunfire came from anywhere else.

Of course it is possible to come up with all sorts of other ideas that cannot be proven one way or another. Since they are in the realm of pure speculation, with absolutely nothing to back them up, this means they cannot be pursued as having any verifiable validity.....which makes them nonsensical to pursue as an idea in the first place.

[wv109323]

There is also a documentary out that took the Zapruder (sp.) film and put the assassination in a computer 3-D model. The computer model verified that everything happened like the Warren Commission said it happened.
Two conspiracy theories that the computer model proved in error was the Four shot theory and the Grassy Knoll shooter.
The four shot theory was based on an open mike of a police motorcycle radio. For the four shot theory to be correct the motorcycle had to be in a particular spot. The computer model showed the motorcycle was not at that location that it had to be at to validate the four shot theory and the recording was an echo rather than a 4th shot.
The other thing that the computer model model disproved was the Grassy Knoll shot. If the shot that hit Kennedy in the head had come from the Grassy Knoll then the bullet would have penetrated his head and continued on and struck Jackie in the chest. The 3-D model proved the head shot came from the School Book Building.
I hate to omit it but it looks like the Government got it right in the Warren Commission report.
Another thing that Jim referred to was the finger prints on the rifle itself. This was a point of contention. Shortly after the rifle was found it was displayed on TV with a Texas Sheriff holding it up with his bare hands. Finger prints on the rifle were in question due to what in today's world would be "sloppy" police work.

[Jim]

..... Another thing that Jim referred to was the finger prints on the rifle itself. This was a point of contention. Shortly after the rifle was found it was displayed on TV with a Texas Sheriff holding it up with his bare hands. Finger prints on the rifle were in question due to what in today's world would be "sloppy" police work.

I'm thinkin' they got carried away with the magnitude of the event and just weren't thinking about what they were doing and how they were handling evidence.

[MtGun44]

Again, I would suggest those that want to damn the Warren Commission should actually
READ the report. To this time, I have never run into anyone besides me that actually
owns a hardcopy book of the report and has read it extensively, but I have talked to
many dozens that have various negative (and very uninformed) opinions about the
shooting and the report.

From reading the report, the ballistics testing and all was very thoroughly done and
clearly shows that it was not a particularly difficult shot. Again - as a teen, my brother
and I roughly duplicated it without a scope many times, usually with 3 head hits.

Bill

[wgr]

If im wrong correct me. But was,nt the Kennedy shooting, the first time the feds. took over a presidents shooting.I know there were no fed. laws till then aimed just at this sort of thing

[GOPHER SLAYER]

There is an order on file with Kliens Sporting goods in Chicago for the actual rifle that Ozwald used in the shooting. He was seen carrying a long package into the building ealier in the day which he said were curtain rods. They found the rifle by the window along with spent cases. He later was seen shooting officer Tibbits close to the theatre were he was arrested. In every reenactment they have done the shooters accomplished the same results. Lee's brother and his wife said he acted alone. Weeks earlier he had fired shots at General Walker's house in Dallas. I don't know what beef he had with him but Lee's wife said he came running into the house out of breath and told her what he had just done. You just have to accept the fact that most assasinations are carried out by lone nut cases. He wanted attention and for a few brief hours he got it.

[MtGun44]

+1 on Gopher Slayer.

The S&W 10 revolver that he was carrying when arrested was traced without a doubt
as the gun that killed Officer Tibbits. It was Victory Model that was originally sold/loaned
to England in .38 S&W caliber, and as many were done - had a .38 Spl reamer run into the
cyl, so the empties on the ground at the Tibbits shooting were bulged to match his gun.
LOTS of unambiguous info. Oswald rode to work in a friend's car with a home-made paper
bag with "curtain rods" in it, the bag and rifle were found on the 3rd floor of the School
Book Depository, with three empty cases and the rifle with Oswald's prints on it.

Bill

[35remington]

MtGun, you can add me to the short list of guys who have and actually have read the report. I picked it up in Barnes and Noble a number of years back, in its plain label configuration. Quite extensive and exhaustive as a report, and I agree that anyone who's actually read it would not consider it as an under study of the assassination.

They were aware of much of the "suspicious" nature of the commentary back then and addressed a great deal of it; had the critics actually read the report in detail, a lot of the furor would have never come about. The mass substitution of crackpot ideas and incorrect theories have given the assassination conspiracy theorists far more "press" than they deserve.

Never has such an assemblage of BS collected over an event more so than this particularly sad chapter of our history.

Oliver Stone's JFK has my nomination as one of the most poorly researched movie themes in the history of cinema.

[kenyerian]

I did buy a copy of the Warren Report as soon as it was available in Paper Back and read it for a class in school. It was a very tough read. I remember when it happened. We were in school and was called to assembly. The buss were all out front ready to go, teachers were exchanging hugs and crying. When we all got seated our principle walked out on the stage and announced that our President had been shot . Nobody said a word as he related the news. He finished by saying that school would be closed early and we should procceed to our busses. Every one started cheering that we were going home early. This delayed things about 15 minutes as he lectured us on the importance of the news and it's serious nature.
That weekend we were playing basketball in the driveway when our neighbor Mr Quin came out and said that Jack Ruby just shot Oswald. We went in and watched as they ran that clip several Times.

[Ben]

All this is very interesting.

Now.........how does Jack Ruby fit into all this?



I once saw him interviewed. It was about 2 weeks prior to his death.
He was asked.." Does the American public know the truth about the assassination of JFK ?"
He said ....." NO ! ! "

He was then asked, ....Do you know the truth about the assassination of JFK ?"
He replied ....." YES ".

He was then asked, ....." Will you tell us the truth tonight ? ".....He replied ...." No ! ".

[deltaenterprizes]

Carlos Marcello the Mafia Don of New Orleans admitted to taking a contract on Kennedy while in Federal prison on racateering charges. There was a show on one of the cable channels that showed how the FBI had a fellow inmate wear a wire and befriend Marcello to get him to admit to it.
Marcello had been deported to Honduras and dumped in the middle of nowhere by Attorney General Bobby Kennedy after the mafia in Chicago helped get John Kennedy elected president. He was quoted as saying "Cut off the chicken's head and the body will die." Meaning if John died Bobby would go away.
The Bay of Pigs fiasco caused great losses of casinos on the scale of Las Vegas to the mafia in Cuba.
Oswald grew up in New Orleans and a bunch of the players involved were from there too and the subject of an investigation by Jim Garrison DA of new Orleans at the time of the assasination.
So goes the story in the New Orleans area, is it fact or fiction? I don't know.

JFK, RFK and MLK were all killed around the same time under suspicious circumstances and were alleged to be the same group.

[35remington]

See what I mean about all the unverifiable "leads" and "coincidences" and the allegations that pop up like daisies in the sunshine with all the claims about the mob and Cuba and the "hits" being put out on public officials?

These grow like weeds and there's no herbicide that will quell them because they defy verification......so they must, perforce, be true!

Who would doubt that Jack Ruby was true to his claim of being self promoting and would take every chance he got to essentially proclaim "I'm colorful! I'm in the know! I'm a character! I'm a player!" That was pretty much his lifelong persona well before the year 1963. Trouble was, he was very extensively investigated after the assassination. The conclusion was, and still is, that he was a small time guy who saw his chance to grab his fifteen minutes.

All we can say, via the ballistics of the shooting in this thread, is that all available evidence points to Oswald and Oswald alone as the single shooter. If followers want to ladle on the innuendo and trowel on the layers of conspiracy sans any proof, there's nothing that anyone can do about that.

Except to note that over fifty years of time have and has uncovered nothing further. How likely is it that a vast conspiracy of individuals was involved that was successfully and completely covered up after all this time?

Not terribly likely.

[35remington]

And Jim Garrison was the king loonie of the conspiracy theorists. Despite mighty effort on his part, and a misdirected and completely erroneous homage to his efforts in the ridiculous movie JFK that gave him way, way more credit than he deserved, he uncovered absolutely nothing of value. His behavior became more obsessed with the idea of conspiracy itself than an objective attempt to uncover the truth.

His obsessive badgering of individuals bordered on the maniacal. And utterly pointless.

[rbuck351]

The only part I have trouble with is the majority of pieces of Kennedys head flying out the back of his head and the "entrance wound" being a lot bigger than the "exit wound". I have never experienced this sort of reaction when shooting anything. Every time I have shot something, the pieces always spray out the exit hole which has never been samller than the entrance hole. Might be possible but I have never seen it happen.

[35remington]

Reread the various reports. The wound of exit was the right side of the skull, which was blown out, so the wound of exit was larger.

The wounding effect has already been covered in previous posts. The evidence for Oswald as the lone shooter is absolutely overwhelming.

[Jim]

The only part I have trouble with is the majority of pieces of Kennedys head flying out the back of his head and the "entrance wound" being a lot bigger than the "exit wound". I have never experienced this sort of reaction when shooting anything. Every time I have shot something, the pieces always spray out the exit hole which has never been samller than the entrance hole. Might be possible but I have never seen it happen.

DISCLAIMER: What I know about terminal ballistics, the reaction of living flesh being hit by a bullet, etc. wouldn't fill a thimble. I never have done much hunting of game bigger than a dog, so I don't have a lot of experience with such.

Now, all that blather aside, I have read and heard, many times over, that there is nothing that reacts to the high speed penetration and hydrostatic shock of a bullet like living flesh. To the best of my understanding, ballistician's gel is about as close as science has come to replicating it.

My limited knowledge and experience with the laws of physics would lead me to think that a head would snap forward, rather than rearward, if hit in the back. The key phrase here, though, is "My limited knowledge..." I have to accept the evidence produced by actuality.

[Cap'n Morgan]

A scan of The Warren Report can be downloaded from archive.org. 33Mb PDF file or 1.7Mb in plain text.

http://archive.org/details/investigationofa01pres

[MtGun44]

Most of Kennedy's head debris flew forward and to the right. The entrance was a rear
shot into the brain cavity, right of center. This pressurizes the nearly fluid brain and
as the bullet fractures the skull on the exit, it blows out, and the pressurized fluid mix
inside jets out. This causes a reaction backwards to some extent, of the remainder of
the head, but still small compared to muscle reactions.

Ever shoot a watermelon? Not quite the same because the shell is weaker, but chunks
blow out and some of the main parts blow back towards you .

Also - FBI did a test with real skulls - I haven't read this part in decades, but IIRC, filled
with gelatin, and got essentially identical results from the Oswald gun and ammo from
the same lot.

Again - the FBI did VERY detailed ballistic testing that is never reported on for two reasons
1) the press is incredibly stupid and ignorant about any kind of gun or ballistics stuff
2) the book writers were busy selling a BS conspriracy theory of various types to make
money, didn't want any inconvenient facts getting in the way of their story telling and
money making.

IMO, the events of the day are well known and pretty straightforward.

I make no claims to understanding motivation and connections. The back story(stories)
are shadowy and weird - a Marine that defects to Russia, lives there for years in poverty
and brings a Russian wife back to US poverty due to dishonorable discharge and being
at least half (maybe all) crazy. Connections to CIA, FBI, other groups???? Who knows?
I start out skeptical, since IME the world is a lot simpler than most folks like to believe.

Bill

[starnbar]

The Warren Commission, it should be clear, never really conducted an investigation. They [sic] began with a conclusion and then worked fairly carefully to ensure that the available facts fit the pre-ordained determination.

[shooter93]

Right starnbar....th only thing Spector said to us when asked is.....The Commission made it's report based on the information we were given at the time. We either accecpt the way the story is told or not. Nothing is going to change it one way or the other now.

[35remington]

I'll lay odds the above two guys never read the report. After reading it, it is abundantly clear it was in fact an investigation. It's easy to make those claims when you've never read it and don't know what it contains. It is ridiculous to make those claims after you have read it and do know what it contains.

It is not even the slightest bit "clear" that the Warren commission made the facts fit the conclusion. To suggest that they did in light of modern findings of the accuracy of their conclusions is being deliberately mendacious. Time his validated the Warren Commission rather than called their conclusions into increasing question. This is contrary to the assertions of the two posters above.

The Commission went to great lengths to address the controversial issues that were known at the time of the assassination. The timing of the shots; whether a single bullet could have made the wounds found on Kennedy and Connally, whether the "cheap" Carcano rifle possessed the accuracy to make the killing shots, Oswald's motivations, his previous attempts to assassinate a general, his overseas travel, the details of Tippit's killing.

And a lot more.

The biggest cause for concern over this 50 year timespan has been the deliberate distortions and misrepresentations of the conspiracy theorists in pursuit of the "truth." The outright falsehoods that were knowingly and deliberately advanced as "fact" are the biggest travesty of all.

Ironic that those supposedly in pursuit of "truth" were so willing to lie so as to advance their own theories as credible that they sullied the whole darn thing. And it's even more ironic that relatively few want to peruse the material themselves. They would rather believe the "conspiracy du jour" because it's a lot more fun to do so.......and takes less of their time.

[Jim]

Janet and I were just discussing this subject and she posed an interesting question.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they find Oswald's finger prints on the rifle? I seem to recall they did. That established the fact that Oswald had the rifle in his hands at some point. Is it possible that the rifle was fired by someone else after he handled the rifle? Or did they absolutely establish that he was the shooter?

Another question: Did they check the fired cartridge cases for prints?

I hope this thread doesn't degenerate, I'm enjoying this one.

Me an' my big mouth.

[Reg]

" the world is a lot simpler than most folks like to believe"

So true.

[starnbar]

If you are refering to the 888 pages of misinformation I read it, still don't believe it and never will. I also watched some of the drama on cbs at the time it was being telecast they had a rifle, a shooter, and voila thats the story and it fits. Didn't see anything said about the 30/06 accelerator case they found on an adjacent roof to the depository.

[bruce drake]

The Accelerator cartridges weren't publicly sold by Remington until 1977...ok, I stirred the pot...popcorn is popped and I'm sitting back to watch the fight between the Sabot guys and the Paper-Patch junkies...

Bruce

[35remington]

Mind if I don't believe you read it?

The "evidence" that everyone claims was missed is starting to crawl out of the woodwork. The thread is indeed starting to deteriorate if this sort of counterpoint is being advanced as factual.

Sorry, but the 30-06 "accelerator" was a development of the Remington Arms Company many years after the assassination. Made up evidence is inadmissable, and I'm afraid you're going to have to cite verifiable sources from here on out.

"Misinformation" is a broad term applied in such a general way that I'm afraid you're going to have to be more specific. Since this is a gun board, what, exactly, do the ballistics of the assassination have left that is still in reasonable dispute?

What alternate credible theories do you have that have stood up over time? The Warren Commission has been validated. The alternative theories have not.

You've got to wonder why.

[35remington]

BTW, arguing with made up "evidence" is how we got in this whole conspiracy theory mess in the first place. Here we have proof that people are willing to advance outright falsehoods and unsubstantiated rumor as truths, and this doesn't serve any process of reasonable examination.

[Jim]

OK, guys, I'm done with this thread. If y'all wanna turn this into a typical "You're an idiot an' I know it all" squablin' match, knock ya'self out. I'm gone.

[starnbar]

Assasination records review board or ARRB per fbi 1994/1996 fbi evidence envelope fbi field office dallas tex 89-43-1a-122 7.65 caliber rifle casing found dealy plaza between 22 nov 63/2 dec 63. You also might want to look up a suspect named roy paine and his connection to oswald. Dallas pd officer foster observed a round that impacted the grass on the south side of elm st/ ft worth star published a photo of the impact area with a caption stating one of the bullets fired during the murder of the president. All of this can be verified. A sabot round was developed by a company called AAI in the late 50's it used a sabot and flechette it was also used in 155s called a beehive round remington just reused an existing round for civilian use. You also might want to read HSCA 180-10116-10323