Rifle/mold question

[trying2learn]

I know that you need to slug a bore for the most accurate size. However i am looking at new rifles and seeing what options there are for molds. Which my wife found funny that i am considering the molds in the decision on which riflw to buy. While doing this i have seen nothing for the .308 caliber rifle but a .309 with gas checks. Does the gas check allow a less precision fit then i need for say the 45 acp? Also is the 308 more universal then 270? I plan on target shooting and maybe one day going out with a few friends to go hunting. I plan on casting the boolits for this rifle like all my handguns. I was just thrown off by the lack of size options in rifles. I noticed they all have the gas check featurw which made me think the gas check allows the boolit to not have to be such a precise fit. I hope all that made sense. My mind bounced around all the ideas in my head. Thanks and i truely hopw this is in the right section.
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[462]

Read this: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_10_GCkorPB.htm

Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbooks offer explainations, too.

[454PB]

Most .30 caliber moulds actually cast around .310" to as much as .314" depending on the alloy used, which gives us some extra diameter for sizing to the proper fit in our particular rifle. I shoot cast in 6 different .30 caliber rifles and I've found that sizing .311 works well in all of them.

The use of gas checks is a whole other discussion, and you'll get a different opinion of how they work depending on who you ask. In my experience, at velocities over about 1500 fps., they are well worth the added trouble and expense. Yes, you can make a plain base boolit accurate at velocities above 1500 fps., but a gas check makes it easier.

[trying2learn]

This is most likely going to make me sound dumb but i have the lymAn book ans there is so much information i get lost in it and more confused by it. Then when i start reading. I understand the casting at the larger size now that you reminded me.

Is the 308 more a universal round over the 270? I plan on using it for the range and possible coyotes and deer eventually and it may be the rifle i take a long range rifle claas with.

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[KYCaster]

A gas check doesn't help a poor fitting boolit.

And....there's more to boolit fit than size alone.

H&R, TC, Ruger, Remington, etc. all have different chamber/throat/leade dimensions, so one size does not fit all.

30 cal. probably has the widest variety of molds available than any other bore size, so you should be able to find multiple options to fit any gun you choose.

Good luck.
Jerry

[trying2learn]

Ok i plan on shooting factory for the first few trips to get the scope close to zero and use to the rifle. Also get the brass stash up. I plan on reading more about chamber and throat size after i settle on a rifle. I am really thinking hard on a 308 over the 270. If i remember right that is what my department prefers for the classes.

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[runfiverun]

the 308 has a gazillion molds from 90 through 200 sumthin available for it.
the 270 has probably three available.
gas checks for the 270 are hunt and order proposition.
30 cal g/c's are much easier to get.

[HangFireW8]

Ok i plan on shooting factory for the first few trips to get the scope close to zero and use to the rifle. Also get the brass stash up. I plan on reading more about chamber and throat size after i settle on a rifle. I am really thinking hard on a 308 over the 270. If i remember right that is what my department prefers for the classes.


The 270 is flatter shooting at hunting distances (say up to 400 yards)... with jacketed bullets. If you plan to hunt with jacketed, the 270 is a great choice. For cast, it will work, but offers no particular advantage over the 308. All that overbore powder space is difficult to utilize with cast.

The 308Win may not be as flat shooting, but it is easier to find long-range target loads, with long, heavy, high ballistic coefficient bullets. Since in target shooting, you know the range, and you have to calculate drop anyway, consistancy and wind-bucking are more important than having a flatter shooting cartridge.

As for cast in 308Win, as has already been said, there is no comparison, there is such a huge number of 30 caliber molds out there.

If you plan to do competition, take classes, target shoot, there is no discussion... choose the 308 Win.

HF

[MikeS]

Well, there's more to rifle choice than caliber. What are you planning on using the rifle for? For casting, I would say to stick with one of the 30 cal. choices, as you'll have the largest mould selection, as well as be able to get moulds from Accurate Mold Co. when you're ready to get a custom mould, and 30 is the smallest they go.

But you also have to consider what action type you want, single shot, bolt action, lever action, automatic, etc. You don't say where you are, so if you're hunting, is it going to be long range with a high power scope? Or will you be hunting in brush, and a 75 yard shot will be a long one? Or if you're only going to be hunting paper? If you're going to be only shooting cast boolits, and only at paper with 100 yards being a long shot, then you can get a less powerful cartridge, such as 30-30 in a lever gun, or 7.62x39 in a bolt, or 30-40 in a single shot, no need to get a 300 magnum where you'll never be shooting up to the cartridges potential with cast boolits.

Gas checks are not to lessen the nessesity of fitting the boolit to the rifle, but more so the boolits can go faster than they can without them. Cast boolits are basically limited to around 1500fps without gas checks, that speed is higher than most pistols can do, so gas checks are not needed. But it's slower than most rifles can do, so gas checks are needed. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, there are some pistols that can easily go faster than that, and so rifle loadings that are slower. That's the beauty of shooting cast, and reloading in general, say you get a rifle in 308 caliber, you can load it with a 180gr boolit with a gas check, and shoot them about as fast as jacketed for hunting, and you can also shoot a 115gr boolit with a small amount of powder behind it for plinking.

I would also advise if you're serious about having this as a cast only rifle, to skip the few boxes of factory ammo, and just invest in 50 or 100 new cases, and start reloading for it right away. You'll learn the rifle just as well with your reloads as you will with factory, and of you zero the scope with factory, you'll just have to rezero it with your handloads later. Also, depending on your age, a scope might not be 100% needed. If you're young, and are going to use the rifle for target shooting, you might be better off getting a peep sight for it, and once you're pretty good with iron sights, move to a scope. Or if you're older perhaps starting with a scope will be easier. As you can see there are lots of things to consider, so before you jump in and buy something that you'll regret later, think them all thru, then once you've got most everything worked out, then you can decide on the smaller details such as what brand of rifle you want. Also, I don't know what kind of budget you have to buy the rifle, but unless you have money to burn, check the used rack at your favorite gun shops or pawn shops, sometimes you can get a real bargain that way!

[UBER7MM]

the 308 has a gazillion molds from 90 through 200 sumthin available for it.
the 270 has probably three available.
gas checks for the 270 are hunt and order proposition.
30 cal g/c's are much easier to get.

Run nailed it. 30 caliber (.308") is agrueably the most populary rifle diameter in North America for over a hundred years. The US started using it in the 30-40 Krag rifle then switched to the 30'06, utilizing the same barrel diameter. The famous M1 rifle of World War II used the 30'06. The 308 Win. aka. 7.62 NATO is a shortened version of the 30'06, again 30 caliber. So there is a lot of lineage for the 30 caliber bullets in the US.

The 270 Winchester is a wildcat derived from the 30'06 by necking down the case to a .277" bullet. It was developed by Winchester in 1925 or so and came out in their new Model 54 bolt action rifle, (a copy more or less of the 98 Mauser). It is a very versatle and flat shooting cartridge.

Meanwhile in Europe, Paul Mauser had developed the the 7x57mm Mauser. This cartridge fires a .284" diameter bullet, which is also very verisatle and flat shooting. Remington made a 30'06 based 7mm (.284") cartridge called the 280 Remington to compete with the 270 Winchester back in 1957.

For .007" difference in diameter, there have been lots of agruments and comparisons between the 270 and 280 that are too lengthy for his post. 270 Winchesters are only second in popularity to 30'06 for hunting in that sized cartridge, in the US. You can find 270 Win cartridges at Walmart, you'll be lucky to find 280 Remington anywhere in town.

To answer the question on the availability of .277", it seems that the 7mm (.284") ended up more popular in the casting realm. Until recently, the 270 Win and 270 Weatherby were the only cartridges firing the .277" diameter bullet. (Now we have 270 WSM, and 6.8 SPC).

7mm became more popular and can be found in cartridges such as the 7-08, 7x57, 280 Rem, 7mm Rem Mag and few more designed on very large magnum cases. This should explain why there is only a few molds available for the 270, while there are a larger of section for 7mm and 30 cal.

I hope this helps,

[trying2learn]

I could have swore i said i live in oklahoma city and plan on using this for multiple things also i want a bolt action. If not i apologize for not saying earlier. I am not sure of distances currently but i would def like to move up to target shooting for competition. I have been talking to some friends about going out once mahbe twice a year witj them on some hunts. Nothing real large but i. Not sure which is why i was thinking of a 308 if it was universal enough. Along with all the orher reasons i gave.

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[Texantothecore]

There is immense value to using a caliber that has been around for 100 years like the .308. Just about everything you can do with a rifle has been done with that round and you will find it very entertaining over the years.

I shoot the 130 year old .45-70 round and I have found that by reloading roundball I can use this caliber, which is a stated favorite for elephant hunting in Zambia, with round ball on rabbits without vaporizing them. If I remember correctly the .308 will use a standard shot gun roundball that you can purchase in large bags cheaply and it is a good load for just messing around with cans and a good introduction for kids to the big rifles. I think the rond ball is 45 grains. Sound familiar?

As far as sizing goes the boolit correctly, slugging is very easy and takes about 30 seconds to do.

Slightly enlarging your mold using high temperature aluminum tape is well documented on this board and if you type into the search engine "beagling" you will find much information that is good and true on this board. You really can fit a bullet to your rifle using this method. After a few years you may wish to order a new mold from Accurate molds. IIRC, Tom will ask you the alloy that you are using and will make small changes to the mold to make the mold cast dead perfect boolits for your rifle.

Reloading books:
Despite the MSM's claim that reloaders and casters in particular are redneck illiterates the facts are that reloaders are voracious readers. I have a copy of a first edition "Modern Reloading" that I have read at least 25 times. Every time I open it my new experiences on the range allow me to see more and to understand more of what John Lee wrote in that book. The pages are full of notes, the back cover is written up with calculations (which are wrong, by the way...it was an early attempt to understand how breech pressure varies with changes in load.), there is only one sheet of paper that holds the cover to the body of the book and it looks like H3ll. But even at this late date, I still read it to find something that I did not fully understand during my last 25 readings. I always experience a new epiphany in that wonderful book and the Lyman book mentioned above is the same way.

I understood very little of what I had read at first but as I started to cast and reload many of the points became clear, many new questions formed in my mind. Your experience is no different than mine, so spend some time at the casting and reloading bench and read the Lyman book again, perhaps a chapter at a time and you will understand more about shooting than most shooters ever dream of knowing.

[trying2learn]

Yea i plan to slug the barrel. I was just thrown off by the only one size mold thing. I couldn't for the life of me imagine anything being exactly that size twice let alone as many as have been made. I dead the lyman boom randomly a few pages at a time as i feel the stuff i have read pruor make more sense in my mind. I read it before i started casting along side to reading here. I have questions and try to find the answer in my lyman manual and then if i feel more confused i come here. I appreciate all the advice.

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[popper]

270 is like 243. High velocity round. Most cast is shot at 30-30 and lower velocity. Stick with the 308. Everything is less $ and easier.

[trying2learn]

Ok these answers have really helped me get closer to a decision. Now to start looking harder for 308 rifles. I am going this week to look at pawn shops and lgs for some used ones. See what is out there.

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[Moonie]

Hard to go wrong with 30 caliber, I would urge you towards 30-06 rather than 308, simply because of availability and the neck is longer which can be easier to reload with cast, but either will serve you well.

[Dean D.]

+1 on Moonie's comments.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

+2 on Moonies suggestion

If I could only have one rifle, it'd be a bolt action 30-06
Jon

[mpmarty]

7.62 Nato (308) is a far better cast boolit cartridge than the 06. Smaller case is more efficient and brass is more plentiful.

[Bullshop]

7.62 Nato (308) is a far better cast boolit cartridge than the 06. Smaller case is more efficient and brass is more plentiful.

Yes more efficient by a slim margin but more plentiful I doubt. Also the shorter neck of the 308 is a less desirable feature with boolits.
The 30/06 case is about a perfect balance between bore diameter and case capicity or to say is at bore capicity.
True smaller cases for any given caliber are more efficient than larger but the 30/06 is not at all inefficient. At 30 cal you dont get over bore untill you get to the volume of a 300 Win mag or Weatherby mag and even then not too so.
I would wager that if a person had a rifle in each caliber 308 and 30/06 made to the same quality that chambering alone would not be a deciding factor on which would win a match put against each other.

[runfiverun]

the throats on most 0-6's are much friendlier to off the shelf cast boolit molds.
they just seem to have a little more freedom...

[arkypete]

Trying 2 learn

For the first 30 years of hunting, target shooting, reloading, bullet casting I never saw my way to finding a need for a 30 caliber.
I read an article in one of the gun rags about converting a Winchester 95 ro 375 Whelen. Should mention I never saw any need for a lever action until a Winchester 1886 in 45-70 reached over and bewitched me.
Any way back to the 95, I found a good price on the Japanese 95 in 30-06 and bought it. I needed to wait for a while to save up the money for the 375 Whelen conversion. So I ordered up a custom mould from Mountain Molds in 30 caliber. It's a bore riding, gas checked, sized .311, 208 grain bullet.
I made several hundred bullets, weighed them to within 3/10ths of a grain and started loading using Lyman, maybe Speer, data for 220 grain jacketed bullets. I used IMR 4895 powder since I've a bunch.
After 5 or 6 different loads had one that would punch into 1.5 inches at a 100 yards using the reciever sight.
This rifle and load is a lot of fun popping gongs off hand at 100 to 200 yards.
As far as alloy goes I used my wheel weights with three feet of 50/50 solder dropped into water.
Sems I'll have to get another model 95 for the conversion.

Jim

[trying2learn]

Well after reading reading and more reading. Since i had absolutely nothing to do today i was tossed up between the 308 and the 30-06. Went to look at a few lgs also and talk to them on reputaion of the models and such. Doing more research when the wife called from work saying they had a rifle on sale as a display. What the heck i thought i am across the street. So i ran in and looked to see what it was. It was a ruger american that i have heard a lot of good reviews on. They had the display model on sale as thwy were wanting to clear out the apot for the 770s they recieved for some reason. I had already looked at this rofle earlier today and they were goimg for 399ish. I asked what the sale price was and they said 349. Then i got my wifes discount on top of that. This thing is brand new. Still has the protective oils on it. And the trigger. O my. Just so smooth and sweet.

So I ended up with a 30-06 ruger american for 325. Now to just find a decent glass to put on it. I believe my wife is out to spoil me. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/10/y5edejub.jpg

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[.22-10-45]

Hello, Trying..when it comes to cast..don't forget about that "other" .30..I like it even better than the 06'..the good o'l .30-40 Krag.

[trying2learn]

O i may have to start saving for my new next rifle after i get the glass for this one.

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[Moonie]

I've heard great things about that Ruger, I'm sure it will serve you very well with cast boolits.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

looking for glass ?

checkout Vortex, they are out of WI. warrentee like Leupold.
http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/crossfire_riflescopes
there crossfire series are being closed out.
I have three, they are excellent, clear, and bright.
there should be some great closeout deals out there somewhere.
I got mine through GearHog's daily deal for about half of the prices listed in this link.
http://swfa.com/Vortex-Crossfire-Rifle-Scopes-C1461.aspx
Jon

[Echo]

If you are in OKC, I hope you are a member of the OKC gun club. I was stationed @ Tinker AFB until I retired, and was a member for many years. They were a bunch of sharp folks that can give many good answers about gun stuff.

[trying2learn]

Nope not a member of any clubs. Don't have a clue as to how to join.

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