WC820 in the .45/70

[beagle]

I was jawing with Buckshot this spring and we were discussing the uses of WC820 and he recalled that someone had mentioned trying it in a .45/70.

I'd tried some in my .38/55 earlier and it gave a pretty nice shooting load at black powder velocities.

Being as my shooting partner/machinist is into BPCR, he was looking for an economical powder for smokeless loads in the .45/70 as his current smokeless powder supply is almost kaput, I got to thinking what he could use.

I was searching around for a cheap milsurp and another shooting acquaintence mentioned that he was using WC820 for plinking loads in a .444 so I said...Hmmmmmmm!

Today I loaded 20 rounds of .45/70. #457193HP sized .459 over 18.0 grains of WC820 (L50276 Hi-Tech)(no filler) and gave her a go.

Velocity was low...1089 FPS but groups at 100 yards were about 2". You got to start somewhere and this was my starting point. Next week, I'll tweak it up a bit and see where this goes.

No leading, no residue and the case mouths were clean and no sign of pressure at all on the primers.

I'm not hunting a "bear stomping" load here but something for paper punching and a velocity in the range of 1400 FPS.

Anybody with any experience in this area, chime in./beagle

[waksupi]

I've shot a load of WC860 in my .45-70. Mildly compressed, plastic was, Emmerts' Lube. I may have had a kicker in it, but don't remember right now. On a good day when my eyes are working, it keeps them in an inch and a half and under. Velocity runs right at 1100fps.

[lar45]

FWIW, I plugged some numbers into quickload with my estimation of WC820

"Today I loaded 20 rounds of .45/70. #457193HP sized .459 over 18.0 grains of WC820 (L50276 Hi-Tech)(no filler) and gave her a go.
Velocity was low...1089 FPS "

I don't know what the 457193HP is so I used a 405gn .972" COL 2.55"
22" bbl??
18gns 1023fps @ 7.3ksi 34.5% load density
28" bbl??
18gns 1084fps @ 7.3ksi 34.5% load density
20gns 1188fps @ 8.9ksi 38.3%
22gns 1289fps @ 10.9ksi 42.2%
24gns 1386fps @ 13.2ksi 46.0%
26gns 1479fps @ 15.7ksi 49.8%
28gns 1568fps @ 18.6ksi 53.6%
33gns 1773fps @ 27.5ksi 63.2%

I don't know if you would have a problem with the partial case thing or not??
Or if the pressure predictions are close??
But the velocity was pretty close to what you got.
????

[Buckshot]

.............I have a 5-6 year old article from "Rifle" magazine. It is about a guy's loading and shooting efforts with a 40-90. While the entire article was very entertaining, he made one blurb I've always considered interesting.

He said, "One particular lot of surplus WC820 has been an exemplary performer in this cartridge".

That was it. No particulars, no furthur info. Since WC820 was not then (or now) a canister grade powder, with a couple different lots out there, probably saying much more about it wasn't wise. Also, I'm pretty sure he figured anyone monkeying around with surplus is not going to have their head up their keester, either. Meaning they can figure out what HE found out, on their own.

................Buckshot

[Junior1942]

[QUOTE=BuckshotSince WC820 was not then (or now) a canister grade powder, [/QUOTE]What is a "canister grade powder"?

[Wayne Smith]

Canister powder is one you can go to your local gun store and buy in one pound cans. These are often sould in larger quanities, too, but have been available in the one pound. At least that's what I've always assumed. If I'm wrong, educate me.

[BruceB]

"Canister grade" powder is carefully controlled for density and burning rate by the powder manufacturers so that from lot-to-lot, from year-to-year, from store-to-store, we handloaders can RELY on the stuff being at least fairly consistent.

This is NOT the case with the powder lots sold to large-scale ammunition manufacturers. They buy the powder in very large batches, and their own labs will test each powder batch to determine what load will be necessary to deliver the designed performance in each cartridge.

The powder can vary a large amount in burning rate and density from lot to lot, and still be perfectly serviceable for their purposes. This is why we see lot numbers quoted so frequently in talking about surplus powders, where there is often a great difference from one lot-number to another.

Canister-grade powders also can vary to a degree, and anyone using them in high-pressure loadings is WELL ADVISED to drop his charge weight and work it back up when commencing work with a new lot of the "same" powder. It may be numbered the same, but it may not burn exactly the same. Container size means nothing, and the possibility of variation makes it highly sensible to buy as much powder as possible of ONE LOT at a time.

[Buckshot]

.......Apparently besides what (Bruce & Wayne, Holy smokes, batman) wrote, each canister lot is supposed to be held to a performance percentage of the parent (original) lot. I had read that it was 4%, but that figure may have been for that manufacturer. I don't know if SAAMI has a standard. Hercules had/has some original Bullseye (I think it's Bullseye) that was produced a bit before the turn of the previous century, stored in water. The current runs compare favorably with it.

As Bruce mentioned, always wise to back off a couple grains when getting a new lot of the same powder going, just to see wassup.

Wc820, has had probably 3 lots released through surplus outfits. Mine is like AA9.

WC852, had 2 distinct lots and interchanging would get you in trouble.
4895, I'm aware had a 1972 batch that was PD, and a 1984 new prod. Reacted almost exactly the same. Both a bit slower then canister IMR.

Wc872 had 2 lots from Bartlett. Three possibly, as I don't know what Hi-Tech's is. It's so dern slow, that in std -06 type cases I don't think it matters much :D

Not a matter of 'Lots' per se, but that was the release of surplus IMR4198. I don't know where they got off calling it that, as it was almost as slow as 4895!

..............Buckshot

[beagle]

Thanks lar.....Don't think I'm going that high but thanks for the figures. Think this 457193HP runs about 390 grains or so so those theoretical figures shouldn't be far off.

I already have loads loaded for Sunday in tthe 19 and 20 grain configuration.

If I can get it to about 1400-1500 FPS I'd be happy.

So far, it doesn't look too position sensitive. May be a good solution for my BPCR buddy as well as my own plinking needs./beagle


FWIW, I plugged some numbers into quickload with my estimation of WC820

"Today I loaded 20 rounds of .45/70. #457193HP sized .459 over 18.0 grains of WC820 (L50276 Hi-Tech)(no filler) and gave her a go.
Velocity was low...1089 FPS "

I don't know what the 457193HP is so I used a 405gn .972" COL 2.55"
22" bbl??
18gns 1023fps @ 7.3ksi 34.5% load density
28" bbl??
18gns 1084fps @ 7.3ksi 34.5% load density
20gns 1188fps @ 8.9ksi 38.3%
22gns 1289fps @ 10.9ksi 42.2%
24gns 1386fps @ 13.2ksi 46.0%
26gns 1479fps @ 15.7ksi 49.8%
28gns 1568fps @ 18.6ksi 53.6%
33gns 1773fps @ 27.5ksi 63.2%

I don't know if you would have a problem with the partial case thing or not??
Or if the pressure predictions are close??
But the velocity was pretty close to what you got.
????

[floodgate]

Buckshot, etc.

"...4895, I'm aware had a 1972 batch that was PD, and a 1984 new prod. Reacted almost exactly the same. Both a bit slower then canister IMR."

There were also two lots of 4895 from the DCM sales floating around in the 1950's that were quite different in performance - 3 or 4 grains' worth as I recall (I was just getting started in "refilling bullets" at the time). There was a LOT of discussion in the "Rifleman" at the time on the subject. I'm REAL conservative and tend to stick to the canister powders, inasmuch as my reloading is mostly oriented towards playing with the tools and machinery; I don't really worry much what happens eight or ten feet past the muzzle - so long as it impacts in a safe spot.

floodgate

[TCLouis]

There were actually 3 batches/"rates" of WC852 according to Jeff Bartlett. I have two of them and there was one that was much faster. I forget which one WC powder, but Bartlett told me of one of them varied so much that he said he was amazed that the Govt would accept them all.

That said, I have heard that if one loaded 30.4 gr. (starting Contender load in Sierra Manual) of the OLDER SLOWER lot of WC820 (exactly like H110 in various loadings (from what I have heard)) with the coated 300 gr. HP that one would have a very accurate load with velocities about 1567 fps out of the 16" Contender barrel.
Least ways that is what I heard, but that was OLD SLOW lot of WC820 (least that is what I was told).

Don't know about the 50s but in the 60s there were two batches and as I remember it was 4895 and 4895D or 4895 Data. I was told that the 4895D was a blend and depending on how consistent the blending was, produced the variability of "rate".

[ammohead]

I'm not hunting a "bear stomping" load here but something for paper punching and a velocity in the range of 1400 FPS.

Anybody with any experience in this area, chime in./beagle[/QUOTE]


estimado, beagle

I just love using that greeting. Makes me feel like shooters again.

Back in '99 I tried the lee 340 gr rnfp with wc820 lot #47322.

This was with a borrowed marlin 22" bbl microgroove.
20gr 1.5 gr dacron with a small disc of cotton on top of powder to stop migration (don't do this anymore, not sure where I heard of using it, probably on shooters). Shot over a "shooters chrony" (long since dead, shot through with a pulled 9mm) gave around 1550 fps. How accurate the velocity is may be questionable. I have since learned about shading the photoeyes from the harsh Nevada direct sun.

My notes say, "nice accurate load, little or no pressure".

18gr with no filler gave around 1000 fps "decent groups - slight fouling".
With filler might give you the velocity you are looking for.

WLR primers, RP cases, LBT blue.

Hope this helps. How y'all been?

ammohead

[TCLouis]

Glenn

Would you run the numbers again with the Lee 340 and RCBS 300 (325 grains lubed and checked out my mold and alloy).

Louis

[lar45]

Not load data, just an estimation

45-70 Lee 340gn .85" col 2.555" 24"bbl

18gns 1039fps @ 5.8ksi 32% load density
20gns 1143fps @ 7.1ksi 35%
22gns 1245fps @ 8.5ksi 39%
24gns 1346fps @ 10.2ksi 42%
26gns 1444fps @ 12.1ksi 46%
28gns 1539fps @ 14.3ksi 49%
37gns 1930fps @ 27.8ksi 65%

Not load data, just an estimation

[TCLouis]

I have heard some folks estimate that they may get 1567 fps from 16.25" Contender and one enlarged hole at 50 from 5 shots.

I can see that I am going to have to go to "Quickload" rather than my "load From A Disk". Quickload seems to give one the info I had expected.

[lar45]

I bought Acculoaders Calculoader program after seeing the $150 quickload price tag.
IMHO Calculoader is a scabby (*^&*$^%ed up piece of (*&^%$t program.
All Calculoader will do is spit out published info in a different format.
Anybody want to buy my copy? I promiss I'll never use it again.

Anyway, I think the $150 price tag is abit much, but it works and seems to work well for me. I would have been $30 ahead if I just bought quickload in the first place.

[5Shot]

I tried some using 2400 Data (which I figured was safe, since 2400 is faster than AA9 or H110) from the Lyman manual. I had good results, but it has been some time since I shot them.

5Shot

[beagle]

Just got around to posting the week's results:

This was with the 457193HP weighing 390 grains, F210 primer, seating depth 2.5 OAL

19.0 grains of WC820 L50276 gave 1123

20.0 grains of WC820 L50276 gave 1172

Accuracy was right at 2" at 100 yards for both loads. No leading and no signs of pressure. Accuracy was much better as opposed to the lower velocities I posted last week.

I was interested to see deformation of the bullets but they dug in and I couldn't recover any.

I'll move up a couple more grains next week and post the results./beagle

[MikeG]

I used 34 grains of WC820 under some ground styrofoam filler, as the powder may be dangerous in a large case with empty space.

With 405 grain bullets I got 1850 fps in my Marlin 1895 45/70.

Shoots real good.

I also use the powder in my 454 Casull M92 rifle; 22 grains, no filler, 300 gr Lee rnfp - got 1580 fps.

Also good in 44 mag.


Mike G.

[JohnH]

lar45, KSI? What is the conversion to get to PSI? Thanks

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot 22 grians in my marlin with no pressure signs Never clocked it though but it felt real simular to my standard load of 20 grains of 2400 which goes about 1200