45 ACP size problem

[bigbuckjeff]

I cast 45 acp bullets from a LEE 6 cavity TC mold. I use WW and ISO lead. I lube and size in a .452 die in my 4500 lubesizer. When loaded most will not fit in my Wilson Case Gauge. Im afraid they will not chamber in my Kimber. Length is good at 1.25 inches.

Anyone have any good ideas?

Please Help..

BigBuckJeff

[mdi]

Got a micrometer? Measure the offending ammo and see where the cartridge is too big. Did you use a taper crimp die to "deflare" the case mouth?

[GT27]

I drop the unloaded shell in the CLG right after resizing to check for go/no go.I then check them again after their loaded for the same.Any case bulge from the boolit in the loaded shells? GT27

[BeeMan]

Break down your Kimber and use it as your gage. The barrel is what matters anyway. If the cartridges don't fit a little Sharpie ink on the cartridge can help find the exact point of interference.

[bigbuckjeff]

i do have some case bulge about where the base of the boolit would be. how do i fix that?

[HeavyMetal]

Sounds like a sizing die issue check and adjust a case only until it fits thr chamber.
use the barrel, out of the gun, as a guage as has been suggested.

Case gauges are mostly set up for j word bullets

[captaint]

Jeff - I think you are worrying too soon. First, pull the barrel out of the Kimber and see if the ammo won't drop in the chamber. Maybe the Wilson case guage is a little tight. Most, if not all of us get that little "bulge" after our boolits are seated. Normally, it don't mean a thing. Measure with a micrometer and see what the actual diameter is. And remember, your rounds should stop, when dropped in the chamber, right at the top of the barrel hood. Check it out. enjoy Mike

[Ed_Shot]

+1 on GT27's comment. Recently started reloading 45 ACP and 40 S&W using only range brass. Have not had a problem with 45 ACP but quickly learned to check my 40 S&W brass with a CLG after depriming/sizing to avoid wasting primers on bulged brass that was never going to work. Wasted money on a .40 Lee FDC hoping it would correct the bulge. I found that not every bulged case had a Glock firing pin hit and not all Glock fired brass had a bulge. Anyway, the brass was free and I trash those that won't pass the CLG test after sizing.

[Larry Gibson]

Could be that the last die is not swaging the case mouth bell out enough. For example;

I've shot thousands of rounds (many loaded with that very Lee bullet and sized .451 and .452) that were loaded on my Dillon SDB through my own 2 Colt M1911s and numerous Army M1911s. I also shot a lot of them through several M1917 revolvers, a Contender barrel and my rebarreled M98. All chambered w/o a hitch. Then I got a Para P14 with a Match chamber. Seems every other round would not chamber with the slide not closing 1/2 to 1/4".

Was very frustrating since I am on the road in my RV and have a full can of it loaded. Yesterday I was at Cabella's and they had the Le Factory Crimp Die. I bought one and with the Lee hand press finished all the rounds. They all took some final swaging. About half are the Lee cast and the others are commercial 205 SWCs and now they all function 100%.

Some cuss at and say to throw the Lee FCD away for handguns. Have to say it saved my bacon this time.

Point being, if your rounds don't chamber in your Kimber, is to check the final swage you do to see if it really is enough. If you can't adjust what ever the die is you use a Lee FCD may save your laods as it saved mine.

Larry Gibson

[sig2009]

Crip a little tighter.

[sig2009]

Some cuss at and say to throw the Lee FCD away for handguns. Have to say it saved my bacon this time. Larry Gibson

The Lee FCD will swage the lead and you don't want that. If you start with a lead bullet sized to .452 and use the FCD,pull the loaded round and I will guarantee it will swage to .450 which will cause excessive leading!If your dies are properly set there is no need for the FCD. Period!

[bruce381]

lower sizer die so shell plate touches it, also tapper crimp lightly to .472 or less. Lastly I had this trouble and it was finally it was the LEE sizer it was to big and did not size all the way down and left a bulge, I got a dillion sizer and problem went away.

[bigbuckjeff]

here is an example of good and bad.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/1455750687f17d7065.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/1455750687f173e71e.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/1455750687f169a7ed.jpg

[bigbuckjeff]

I want to finally get this resolved so I can get my Dillon going.
Resized then primed brass just fall right in the case gauge. the trouble is the final product.
Thanks so much!

[nicholst55]

+1 on GT27's comment. Recently started reloading 45 ACP and 40 S&W using only range brass. Have not had a problem with 45 ACP but quickly learned to check my 40 S&W brass with a CLG after depriming/sizing to avoid wasting primers on bulged brass that was never going to work. Wasted money on a .40 Lee FDC hoping it would correct the bulge. I found that not every bulged case had a Glock firing pin hit and not all Glock fired brass had a bulge. Anyway, the brass was free and I trash those that won't pass the CLG test after sizing.

Have you tried either Lee's Bulge Buster (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/882261/lee-bulge-buster-base-sizing-kit-380-auto-40-s-and-w-45-acp) or the Redding G-RX (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/358543/redding-g-rx-base-sizing-die-kit-40-s-and-w-357-sig-10mm-auto?cm_vc=subv1882261)die? They're both intended to correct the bulged case problem. Curious, because I just bought a Glock 22 .40 S&W; haven't started loading for that flavor yet, but I figure I'm going to replace the barrel with one that fully supports the chamber - and is more cast-friendly than the factory barrel.

[Larry Gibson]

The Lee FCD will swage the lead and you don't want that. If you start with a lead bullet sized to .452 and use the FCD,pull the loaded round and I will guarantee it will swage to .450 which will cause excessive leading!If your dies are properly set there is no need for the FCD. Period!

Well, that's what everyone says. However after coming home from the range after firing 50 rounds of the L FCD sized loads with 100% functioning, excellent accuracy and no leading I pulled several bullets last night before and after using the Lee FCD and they mic'd the same......perhaps with some FCDs they do swage the bullets, with mine they didn't.

Point is; the dies in the Dillon SDB were adjusted correctly and the loads feed through everything except this match chambered P14. The Lee FCD has now made 400+ rounds of 45 ACP so they feed reliably and with no additional leading (the commercial 205s leave the usual bit of leading, my own Lee cast bullets with BAC lube leave no leading). Those 400+ rounds were useless for use in the P14 before using the Lee FCD on them. Now they are fine. I'm not saying to always use the Lee FCD as I don't. In my case it worked for my P14. Hard to disagree with success isn't it? I'm only suggesting it might solve bigbucketjeff's problem as it solved a simialr problem with my 45 ACP ammuntion.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Larry, that reminds me of something Bassakwards used to say- it only matters when it does.

Each gun/load combo is unique to itself. What works in one wont always work in another. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

If the gun want an FCD used and it works then where is the problem?

The only thing the counts is the target.. Are the holes where they are supposed to be?

There are no absolutes in shooting, cast even more so.

[Artful]

I want to finally get this resolved so I can get my Dillon going.
Resized then primed brass just fall right in the case gauge. the trouble is the final product.
Thanks so much!

Well then the final product is affected by flaring, seating the boolit and crimping to remove the crimp. If the dies works with other (smaller .451 sized) bullets then the extra .452 sizes boolits may be the culprit - if it doesn't work with other bullets then it's got to be in the flare and crimp process - One thing I do is keep known good dimension round (factory for example) and use that to set up my seating and crimping dies. Then the ammo I make will come out exactly like the factory. :-D

[Artful]

Break down your Kimber and use it as your gage. The barrel is what matters anyway. If the cartridges don't fit a little Sharpie ink on the cartridge can help find the exact point of interference.

Good advise - the gauge doesn't matter if you barrel is tighter - or looser. If you have multiple barrels go with the one with the tightest chamber.

[geargnasher]

I cast 45 acp bullets from a LEE 6 cavity TC mold. I use WW and ISO lead. I lube and size in a .452 die in my 4500 lubesizer. When loaded most will not fit in my Wilson Case Gauge. Im afraid they will not chamber in my Kimber. Length is good at 1.25 inches.

Anyone have any good ideas?

Please Help..

BigBuckJeff

You're "afraid they will not chamber" or "they DON'T chamber"??

Lots of good answers in this thread, read over it again. I'm still wondering why you are using a case gauge to check ammunition loaded with cast boolits. Make three "dummy" rounds with no powder or primer, but size, expand, seat, and crimp like you normally would, and test cycle them through the gun. You really have an advantage making your own ammunition, because you can make it fit the gun you're loading for, not a rough standard.

The case gauge that came with your pistol is the only one you need be concerned with. If your cartridges pass the "plunk test" and manual cycle test from the magazine, you're good to load up a few and try them at the range.

Gear

[MtGun44]

Needs more taper crimp.

Bill

[bigbuckjeff]

Jacketed bullets .451 work great.

[Artful]

Jacketed bullets .451 work great.

In the gun or the gauge?

[Artful]

Needs more taper crimp.

Bill

I'd tend to agree.

[MT Chambers]

Prolly your size dies are not right, I'd get a set of quality dies and forget about the Lee crimp die, which is usually just covering up some shortcomings in your sizing/crimping.

[geargnasher]

Needs more taper crimp.

Bill

To swage the boolit and case together so it will fit in the Wilson gauge? He hasn't even tried them in the gun from what I can tell. Why do any of you expect a precision JACKETED bullet case gauge to pass on ANY cast boolit load? Anybody know the crimp spec on ball ammo?

Forget the Wilson gauge for cast loads and use the one that came with the gun.

Gear

[Artful]

Anybody know the crimp spec on ball ammo?
Crimp from 0.473 - 0.469 is acceptable.
Forget the Wilson gauge for cast loads and use the one that came with the gun.
He means the Barrel, take it out of the gun and use it to check fit.
http://www.shootersforum.com/attachments/handloading-procedures-practices/7260d1213756288-45-acp-reloading-beginners-.45-seating-possibilities-x800.jpg

Gear

Yep, I'm being a pain - Artful :mrgreen:

[sig2009]

Well, that's what everyone says. However after coming home from the range after firing 50 rounds of the L FCD sized loads with 100% functioning, excellent accuracy and no leading I pulled several bullets last night before and after using the Lee FCD and they mic'd the same......perhaps with some FCDs they do swage the bullets, with mine they didn't.

Point is; the dies in the Dillon SDB were adjusted correctly and the loads feed through everything except this match chambered P14. The Lee FCD has now made 400+ rounds of 45 ACP so they feed reliably and with no additional leading (the commercial 205s leave the usual bit of leading, my own Lee cast bullets with BAC lube leave no leading). Those 400+ rounds were useless for use in the P14 before using the Lee FCD on them. Now they are fine. I'm not saying to always use the Lee FCD as I don't. In my case it worked for my P14. Hard to disagree with success isn't it? I'm only suggesting it might solve bigbucketjeff's problem as it solved a simialr problem with my 45 ACP ammuntion.

Larry Gibson

Unfortunately the Lee FCD pro and con has been beaten to death on all gun forums and the final answer is. If your dies are set up correctly there is no need for the FCD. The FCD corrects out of spec rounds by swaging them. I used to have a Lee FCD for every caliber I reload. Now after years of experience reloading and settting up my dies correctly the LEE FCD'S are not used in any of my calibers and have zero issues chambering any rounds in any guns I own. So to each his own. In my case I have no use for the FCD nor do I plan on ever using them again!

[sig2009]

Here is what the owner of Penn Bullets has to say about crimp. Granted you are using a TC bullet but this may work for you.

"A taper crimp at .469 (measured right at the case mouth) this will prove to be optimal in 99% of the .45s out there for reliable feeding."

[MikeS]

Larry:

Just out of curiosity, if you take the crimper out of the FCD, and run the ammo thru it, do they now chamber? Or did you have to adjust the crimper to do more crimping? If you had to do more actual crimping, could you adjust the dillon crimp die to put more crimp on the cartridges? (showing my complete ignorance of Dillon dies)

[GT27]

I want to finally get this resolved so I can get my Dillon going.
Re-sized then primed brass just fall right in the case gauge. the trouble is the final product.
Thanks so much!
Mic the boolits circumference and let us know what size it is!Sounds like a sizing problem,or overcrimping thusfar!
Take the decapping pin out of the die and run them through the FLS loaded,with the shell holder on the ram all the way up, and the die set with just a little cam-over with the handle of the press , if its still a no go afterwards,break them down save the components and "86" those empty's,you will never get them in spec,their stretched out of spec,the CLG takes all guesswork out of not knowing,it either goes or not,if the base of the case isn't even with the top of the gauge, or in between the groove that's machined in it its not going to function"PERIOD",unless you have a chamber out of Saami Spec!!. Really unusual for 45acp,I have empty's that have been shot over 30 times... GT27

[MikeS]

GT27, what do you mean stretched out of spec? What dimension are you talking about? I don't know of any that can't be fixed, either by using a Lee bulge buster, or case trimmer.

[Artful]

here is an example of good and bad.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/1455750687f17d7065.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/1455750687f173e71e.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/1455750687f169a7ed.jpg

GT27 how do you get over crimping from these photo's?
look at the boolit's one is embedded in the case the other isn't...

[GT27]

GT27, what do you mean stretched out of spec? What dimension are you talking about? I don't know of any that can't be fixed, either by using a Lee bulge buster, or case trimmer.

It stretches at the web of the shell,making the wall thinner,the web(base) wider,that's what will prevent the shell from seating in the CLG,after that happens according to all reloading shell manufacturers it cant be sized back into Saami Specifications...I have had some 223 shells that were out of spec,running through the same setting on the decapping die that were in,some were out,some I put back through the sizer twice and they would be in,some that wouldnt no matter how many times you put it through.This instance,from the information the OP has disclosed,sounds like a boolit sizing problem to me,or some of your shells are out of spec,like I said before...(Think case head separation)GT27

[GT27]

GT27 how do you get over crimping from these photo's?
look at the boolit's one is embedded in the case the other isn't...

Read post 34,once the web of the shell has expanded to its limit(out of Saami Spec,it gone,the casing at that point is thin,unusable,if theres a way to bring it back into spec without being dangerous let me know!Your problem is at the web of the shell by the pics,if it was over-crimped it wouldn't seat that far into the CLG. GT27

[Char-Gar]

I would agree with Gear and others who tell you to worry about how the rounds fit and feed in your pistol and put that guage aside.

If your really and truly(something I don't assume) are seating a .452 cast bullets designed for the 45 ACP round at the proper depth and the round won't function in a good 1911 pistol, there are a limited number of reasons, and here they are from most likely to least likely.

1. Your are not closing/crimping the case mouth correctly
2. You have a bum sizing die

If one of these are not the cause, they you are not really and truly doing what you said you did about the bullet, it's size and it's seating depth.

We have been loading the 45 ACP round for the 1911 pistol for a hundred years now and there are no secrets yet to be discovered. It is one of the easiest rounds to load for accuracy and reliability in a good autopistol.

[Artful]

Read post 34,once the web of the shell has expanded to its limit(out of Saami Spec,it gone,the casing at that point is thin,unusable,if theres a way to bring it back into spec without being dangerous let me know!Your problem is at the web of the shell by the pics,if it was over-crimped it wouldn't seat that far into the CLG. GT27

ON 223 pressures I could see that- not on 45 ACP. :bigsmyl2:

[prs]

May I venture a guess? The OP loaded to specified C-OAL as listed in the Lee manual for a 230 (or whatever) lead bullet. Their data does not specify the boolit. If the boolit used has square shoulders at .452", then the round can seat on the boolit's shoulders instead of the case mouth. Same can happen if we sub our boolit of same weight for one in a recipe worked-up for another boolit. I found this out the hard way too. I use the barrel as my case gague and seat the boolit for the proper functional C-OAL instead of one specified --- BUT, if that is shorter, reduce the charge and work-up the load.

prs

[GT27]

ON 223 pressures I could see that- not on 45 ACP. :bigsmyl2:
Then your saying 45acp are never out of Saami spec by firing several times?:confused:

[Artful]

I'm still firing 45 ACP cases from the mid 1960's without issues and all are factory pressure if not higher, at one point I was working with steel cases from WW2 because I wanted higher pressure loads than I wanted to put in copper cases so I wouldn't get them mixed up. (Look up 45 Super) Those cases all continued to stay within limits that the resizing die could handle and never needed to be trimmed either.

[Frozone]

You guys have just about beat this to death - but...

It does look like 2 different seating depths on the 'case gauge' photos.



OP what is the OAL of those 2 cartridges? do they match?
Do you trim your cases? Are the cases the same length?
Is your seating die setup correctly?

[bruce381]

I have loads that look like the gauge pictues BUT as long as they are that close they ALL fit in my 2 KART barrel guns so check it in your chamber.

[boatworks]

I blew up a Smith mod.99 with a range pick up case that was bulged.No injuries though.Apparently the round did not fully chamber but the firing pin still hit the primer. I told them what I did and they still replaced the pistol. Good outfit.

[MikeS]

45ACP brass can be reloaded almost forever. Anyone telling you that you've ruined brass because it stretched out of SAAMI spec probably wants to sell you more brass!

[farmer66]

I have the same situation as the OP. I use the same boolit, sized to .452. I use RCBS dies and changed from .448 to .450 expander die (that helped). I started out at 1.25 inches overall, crimped to .469, used 1 Glock and 2 Ruger barrels to check. Finally ended up at 1.16 inches overall, Glock and 1 Ruger OK, and 1 Ruger still only allowing proper seating 70 % of the time. The shorter I got, the more fit the barrels. My rounds at 1.16 look like the shorter round in the OP's pictures.

I measured 5 as cast boolits for min diameter and max. Average difference was 0.006 inch. This is much more deviation than my other molds. Parting line of mold is offset, so I tried to work by hand to minimize. Never was really happy with the rework, so I set it aside, and went back to the Lyman molds.

I like the shape of the boolit and may try a six cavity Lee mold, they are said to be better.

Hope this adds to the discussion.

Ken

[mpmarty]

Unless you plan to fire those rounds in the case length gauge put it away and quit playing with it. Pull the barrel from your pistol and see if the rounds will plunk into the chamber. If they will shoot them and quit obsessing over non issues.

[Captain_Howdy]

some cast bullets just need to be seated deeper than others. I just recently got a Miha .452-200 mold and I could not get the rounds to chamber in my 1911. Upon closer inspection I realized the bullet itself was coming in contact with the rifling in the barrel and it was stopping cold in its tracks. So I tried adjusting my seating depth. After a while I just seated the bullet's driving band even with the case mouth and all my probles went away. I could chamber and extract without incident. I then did some more research to confirm my actions and found out that this is what a lot of people using this bullet had to do.

After looking at the pictures of your samples I would suggest you try this as well.

Good luck and be safe.

[Faust921]

45ACP brass can be reloaded almost forever. Anyone telling you that you've ruined brass because it stretched out of SAAMI spec probably wants to sell you more brass!

A couple of buddies of mine who shoot IPSC said they'd load .45 ACP until they couldn't read the headstamp, and they were feeding race guns in which they invested a lot of time and money.

After years of contemplation, I reloaded my first handgun ammo today. I've spent weeks getting the equipment together from eBay, ect. I went with a used RC2 and will load .45 ACP and .45 Colt. to start.

I loaded 50 .45 ACP 230gr FMJ behind 3.8 gns Bullseye. 1.265 OAL. Did not crimp. Tomorrow I'll find out if 3.8 grains of Bullseye will run. Lyman's #49 had that as the starting load. After reading what others are doing, I wish I'd loaded 4.2 to 4.7 grains. Lyman's also had the OAL at 1.275 but some ammo that fed well in my gun was 1.265, so I seated to 1.265 OAL. Took my time and made a lot of measurements of case length, OAL and powder charge mass. I also got friendly with the powder measure and the hand primer, glad I invested in those. Already had a scale from shotshell reloading.

Plan to get into casting soon. This forum has been immensely helpful. Having worked in automotive helps with the casting. Of what I've read, the lead casting is very similar to the aluminum and steel casting, just cooler and smaller. As soon as I can get a old dutch oven, I'll get some ingots poured off the lead I dug out of the backstop at a local range. Thanks one and all for your tips and insight.

[Artful]

Faust921 welcome to the hobby without end - shoot 'em - reclaim 'em - recast 'em - load 'em - repeat.

I prefer to us my lee hand primer as well, even if I'm going to load 'em up on my dillon.

BigBuckJeff, did you try shooting the no-goes in your gun yet?