.38 brass. tell me if im crazy

[mr.jake]

Ok, ive read that it is possible to use .38 special brass loaded to the OAL of .357. I have plenty of .38 brass but no .357 mag. I know the simple solution would be to buy .357 brass becaue .357 brass is thicker to better handle the higher pressures. Ive been doing some reading on lil' gun powder and how it produces lower pressures than other powders at the same velocitys. So how many of you think it would be crazy to try a lil gun .357 mag load in .38 special case loaded to .357 OAL in my rossi 92 .357?

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

IMHO, you are not crazy but I and most other experienced reloaders will tell you DONT DO IT ! ! !

The reason being is the off chance that someone else may slip one of your heavy loads into a 38 Special and the result would most likely be a KABOOM (disassemble your revolover from the inside out)

Not good.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[Walter Laich]

If I read your post correctly you would be putting .357 loads into a .38 Sp case and then loading the bullet so the overall length would be that of a .357?

If so I don't see a problem as your load won't fit into a regular .38 Sp cylinder or function in a .38 Sp-only rifle due to the length.

[2wheelDuke]

I agree that you're kinda playing with fire there. .357 mag brass isn't that hard to come by. .38spl brass, even +p is rated for a whole lot less pressure than .357mag brass.

[nanuk]

has anyone sectioned the brass to see if the 38sp and a 357mag have differences?


I would suspect recent manufactured brass would be identical, except for length, but I don't know for sure.

[DGV]

I have shot plenty of Lyman 358156 (about 160 grains) in starline 38 special +P brass. 13.5 grains of 2400 at well over 1200 fps in a 4 inch Ruger GP100. The only reason I use +P brass is to segregate loads. +P brass is no stronger than regular brass. Ask Starline. It's on their website.

[mr.jake]

I should have metioned that i am going to seat the bullet out far enough that it wont chanber in my .38 special pistol and also mark the case.

[StratsMan]

You're a Rocket Scientist!! (Funny how easy ideas are sometimes hard to see...)

I'm not gonna spend money buying anymore 357 brass, at least not for plinking. I have thousands of unused 38's, so why not load 'em both ways??? Personally, I load my 357's light, but give enough OAL to prevent loading in a 38 Special revolver sounds like a DIY'er dream...

Have you found one boolit that works better than others for this???

[Green Frog]

Mr. Jake,

If you have access to old Shooting Times magazines, they had a great writer (who passed away about 20 years ago) by the name of Skeeter Skelton. He wrote extensively about reloading for revolvers and stated that in the early days when 357 brass was harder to come by, his standard load for his personal use was a Lyman #358156 hard cast bullet seated out to the first grease groove over a healthy dose of powder in a 38 Special case. I don't remember the exact charge and won't guess at it publicly, but somebody on this board surely has it in one of his books or articles and will chime in here, but it sounds a lot like like the one DGV mentioned above and should be exactly the load you are suggesting. BTW, this is a GC mould, but he said he used it both with and without checks, depending on the load.

HTH ~ Froggie

[leadhead]

What about the carbon ring that will start in the .357 chamber
buy using the shorter .38 special brass?
Denny

[mr.jake]

Im not too concerned about the carbon ring. If i do this it wont matter because i will have no reason to use .357 brass.

[bob208]

i would and have used .38-44 loads and shot them in .357 guns with no problems. i have done it back when .357 brass was hard and expenive to get. i have never had a carbon ring problem either. .39spl. brass and .357 brass are the same thinkness in the head and walls the only differince is the .357 is longer.

[Max Brand]

I use 17.4 grains of Lil' Gun in my 158 grain lswc .357 lever loads but doubt if you could get nearly that charge in a .38 spl case but I've never tried it. If you're planning on using them for hunting I'd just buy a hand full of .357 brass and be done with it.

[geargnasher]

The carbon ring actually helps. I don't know too many who would "recommend" doing what you're asking, especially considering those out there who may not be qualified to do so who are or may be reading this thread, but for your own use I'm not going to call you crazy.

Gear

[TCFAN]

What about the carbon ring that will start in the .357 chamber
buy using the shorter .38 special brass?
Denny

I have shot 1000's of 38 specials in 357's both rifle and revolvers and have never seen the carbon ring that a lot of people talk about.Maybe I have just been lucky or don't know what I am looking for,but I have never had any problem with the 38 brass in 357 chambers.................Terry

[downwind]

The boolit won't have the same neck tension since it's not held by the same amount of brass (length) Release pressures will be lower

Also alignment might suffer for the same reason

DOWNWIND

[MT Gianni]

I would go back to where I read that and remove it from my favorites list.

[David2011]

If I read your post correctly you would be putting .357 loads into a .38 Sp case and then loading the bullet so the overall length would be that of a .357?

If so I don't see a problem as your load won't fit into a regular .38 Sp cylinder or function in a .38 Sp-only rifle due to the length.

First thought here is that in a longer cylinder similar to that of Rugers, a .38 with an excessive OAL will chamber. That might cause problems in a .38 Special Colt or S&W revolver that has a magnum length cylinder. Not all frames and cylinders can tolerate pressure like a Ruger.

David

[Blammer]

sounds like you have a good idea, give it a try and see how it does, shouldn't hurt a thing.

[Wayne Smith]

You only talked about changing OAL, not the load. If you are loading to the same intensity you will actually be reducing pressure by increasing the load space. If you are talking about filling the case with a slower powder that is another matter. Keep to published .38+P loads and you are well withing safe levels.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Jake, I'd pay attention to case volume for each combo. Depending on the boolit, they can end real close, like 358429 crimped over the front drive band in a 357 case vs the same boolit crimped in the groove in a 38 Spl case.

Looking at SAAMI drawings for max cartridge/min chamber, you can see the diameters are the same for both cartridges. Also note that 38 Spl and +P are on the same document. At the case mouth, there is only 0.001 difference case OD and chamber ID. Seems to me that the only difference between 38 Spl and 357 Mag dimensions is the length of the case.

[lwknight]

The oal is the only real difference in the case. You can get brass in 38 or .357 that is heavy duty or cheap duty junk in either or both however you want to say it.

Most 38spl brass is pretty light and will fatigue in just a few rounds of heavy loads. Good quality brass will take anything that the .357 will. You are not the first and will likely not be the last.

Personally , I like mine separated by case length just for simplicity. Also not all bullets have a canalure that will work with a 38 brass and .357 length. I'm glad that you at least plan to make the oal so that they cannot go into a 38spl.

[res45]

I don't believe Skeeter ever mentioned shooting 357 Mag. loads in 38 Special case I could be wrong,although he did shoot some hot 38 Special loads that were above P+ in his 357 Mag. revolvers.

http://www.darkcanyon.net/A%20Letter%20From%20Skeeter%20Skelton.htm

NOE has a double crimp groove HP/FN mold that works well for loading long in 38 Special cases,bought mine in a group buy last year.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/NOE.jpg

Other than case length the only difference between 38 and 357 is the case rim on the 357 cartridge is .002 thicker.

[roverboy]

www.darkcanyon.net/MyFriend_The357.htm
This is a nice article by Skeeter. Its got some good loads.

[**oneshot**]

I have about 100 or so 38special cases that are loaded with 173gr boolits and 14grs of mystery powder.
These were my Dad's and he has the box marked-- "Keith Loads", do not use in 38special!!!-- They are as hot as a 357load but have a very distinct sound when fired. I believe the boolits are lyman 358429 and will not chamber if loaded into a 357case unless I go over the driving band.

I am always afraid I will one day shoot one in my 38spec so these stay on the shelf in the marked boxes.

[reloader28]

I like the idea and have heard of it before.
As soon as I get a chance, I'm going to do it.
357mag brass is to darn expensive.

[Char-Gar]

Let me take a swing at this topic as I am old enough to have loaded and lived in the day when what is being suggested by the OP was a fairly common practice.

1. Not all 38 Specials are born the same. Wadcutter brass has a much thinner web area so should not be used for high pressure loads. So, make sure you know your brass!

2. Loads with the 38 Special cases will have less powder capacity, and so pressures will be over the top with standard 357 mag charges. Powder charges will have to be reduced if 38 Special cases are used.

3. The exception to No. 2 is Thompsons 358156 that has two crimp grooves. Crimped in the bottom groove the 38 Special case will have the same capacity as the 357 case and the bullet crimped in the top groove.

4. Shoot enough 38 Special cases in 357 mag. chambers and carbon build up will become a problem causing difficulty in chamberings 357 mag cases. Clymer and others makes special reamers to cut this stuff out, if it gets too thick. Regular cleanings with a brush and solvent most often will keep this crud down to a level where it wont be a problem.

5. Case life with high pressure loads in 38 Special brass will be greatly reduced.

Therefore, if you are willing to accept the limitations of the practice, then have at it. I would suggest you avoid top end loads, and stick with low end magnum pressures. Skeeter Skelton fired the Thompson bullet (358156) seated in the bottom groove, in 38 Special cases and enough 2400 powder to get 1,200 fps. This is not a top end load!!!!!

We did it "back in the day", but we didn't do it because it was a good idea. We did it because money was short and it was a "make do" situation.

[PS Paul]

Actually not an entirely uncommon practice for fellas who want to load heavy-for-caliber (say up to 200 gr. boolits with an ogive that would allow chambering) boolits that would be too liong to fit in their cylinders if used in .357 brass. Others will trim the .357 brass to "just the correct length", but the risk of the boolit "jumping crimp" under recoil and tying up the cylinder is a distinct possibility unless a heavy crimp or a "profile crimp" (specialty-type die that kind of combines a roll and taper crimp) is used.
Anothe guy did mention Skeeter Skelton and we know about Elmer Kieth's practice of doing the very same thing with .38 brass.

So I would say, "give it a whirl". I would presume you would be prudent in working up loads and approaching max incrementally....... BUT, there is also the school of thought that your accuracy might suffer. Perhaps significantly- by doing so becasue the boolit is somewhat further from the chamber and the forcing cone/rifling. Just a thought.

[mdi]

What about the carbon ring that will start in the .357 chamber
buy using the shorter .38 special brass?
Denny

The carbon ring can be a problem if you don't clean your revolver. I have shot thousands of 38s in my 357 and sometimes 250 or so rounds in a session, I clean my guns every time I shoot them and the cylinders get the same attension as the bore. I haven't tried to chamber a 357 after shooting 200 38s, but it ain't a problem 'cause I keep them clean...

[prs]

Marlin rifles in 357mag seem to not be so relaible in cycling with 38spcl. A fellow CAS shooter, Snakebite, adapted my PRS boolit design to .357 and stretched the profile a bit achieve 357 OAL when loaded in 38spcl brass. BRILLANT! Carbon ring not a problem as he and others using it are Darksiders with real black powder. BUT, if loaded with the dreaded modern propellants, this cartridge will still fit in a 38spcl and I shoot it in a S&W Dectective (but not at 357mag pressures!)

prs

[hithard]

So why have 357 brass at all.....come on....why even begin to set the opportunity for trouble up. If you really need 357 brass send me a PM and when I get back from Wyoming I will be happy to send you some.

Brother....I would just had to see a bad post to follow, peck'n the keyboard with a straw in your mouth would be a real bitch!

[mr.jake]

So why have 357 brass at all.....come on....why even begin to set the opportunity for trouble up. If you really need 357 brass send me a PM and when I get back from Wyoming I will be happy to send you some.

Brother....I would just had to see a bad post to follow, peck'n the keyboard with a straw in your mouth would be a real bitch!

thanks hithard. But i belive im going to try it. 357 lil gun loads are useually around 25,000 cup so its not as high a pressure as comparable .357 loads. im trying the load in my rossi thats pretty strong (handles 60kpsi in the .454 model). Ile work up the load and wear safety glasses and gloves.

thanks for all the feed back on this thread guys. It will be a week or so before i get my lil gun powder but when i do ile report back.

[PS Paul]

BTW, Jake. I have done this very thing in a security six I've had for many years. Last time I did it, I used a 180 gr. jaxketed bullet over a med. -heavy charge of 2400. It has been some years since I did that load, so I'm reticent to post a load. Not just because I cannot remember, but also becasue it is not prudent. As I recall, I found it worked safely and no pressure signs, BUT it was not the most accurate load I had ever shot. I found accuracey did suffer in THAT pistol with THAT load. I believe I did it because the bullet would lock up the cylinder if it jumped crimp and the .38 brass allowed me to load that bullet (with a cannelure-not a crimp groove like cast boolits) without locking up the gun. I did it with .357 and found that jumping crimp became an issue for me and did lock up the gun at one point. Since then, I actually very rarely shoot anything but cast in most all my revolvers.

Not sure if this helps, but I think the concerns about blowin' yerself up are overblown provided you obviously use sound judgment in load development.
Paul

[mr.jake]

www.darkcanyon.net/MyFriend_The357.htm
This is a nice article by Skeeter. Its got some good loads. thanks for the link that was a good read. only wish he listed COAL

[11B-101ABN]

There's an article in this months HANDLOADER magazine (actually it's October 2012, but it came this month) that discusses what you want to do. It gives bullets used, powder charges, and some OAL's.

[roverboy]

Mr. Jake your right about the COAL. I'm guessing though that he had good results in all his guns.

[Char-Gar]

Nobody talked about COAL or even understood that term. All of Skeeter's loads were seated and crimp in the cimp groove provided in the bullet.

The Speer half jacket bullets mentioned were seated and the case mouth roll crimped over the top end of the jacket.

DA sixguns by Colt in 357 mag had cylinders too short to seat for the long Keith (358429) bullet unless the crimp was rolled over the shoulder of the bullet.

[PS Paul]

The article 11B mentions in handloader is a good one. The author found ultimately in HIS guns, that accuracy suffered. I had the same results in MY gun those 16 or 17 years ago, but it allowed me to shoot those bullets that were given to me at the time.

[williamwaco]

IMHO, you are not crazy but I and most other experienced reloaders will tell you DONT DO IT ! ! !

The reason being is the off chance that someone else may slip one of your heavy loads into a 38 Special and the result would most likely be a KABOOM (disassemble your revolover from the inside out)

Not good.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets





+1


PLEASE don't load .357 charges in .38 brass.

It is an accident is waiting to happen.


.

[mr.jake]

+1


PLEASE don't load .357 charges in .38 brass.

It is an accident is waiting to happen.


.


Post #7

[colonelhogan44]

if it's the same COAL as a .357, why not? I have no 38sp gun in the household, so I start my loads at 38 levels in 38 cases, and then work up from there, usually keeping the .357 min load as my arbitrary ceiling with cast boolits.

For the barn burner loads, I have about 100 .357 cases that get used.

For mid level magnum loads, it's never been a problem to use 38 cases. Your mileage may vary, and don't blame us if somehow you blow a gun up!

It's one more reason my handloads don't get given away or fired in other people's guns.

[376Steyr]

I duplicate Skeeter's favorite 357 load of 13.5 grs of 2400 with a .38 Special case crimped into the lower groove of a 358156 by changing the load to 15.5 grs of Lil Gun with a Magnum primer. During a chronographing session with the two loads I got 1180 fps out of one, 1200 fps with the other, I don't remember which was which, out of a 4" barrel.
I only use once-fired brass for these loads and pick out the wadcutter cases before doing any loading. Ammo is stored in boxes labeled "357 Skelton" and is readily identifiable by the "two bands" sticking out of the case mouth. I'm careful to avoid having any of this ammo on me when carrying a .38. Lastly, I don't give any of this ammo away for fear of it making its way into a .38 Special. This works for me, YMMV.

[Raygun]

If nothing else this post shows how versital the 38 special is.

[MikeS]

I say go for it! The ONLY reason the 357 case is longer than 38Special cases is to keep somebody from loading 357s in a 38. As long as you keep the loads well marked as to what they are, and they're for your own use, as I said, go for it.

[I'll Make Mine]

The ONLY reason the 357 case is longer than 38Special cases is to keep somebody from loading 357s in a 38.

While this is true, the other factor is powder space -- as long as you're loading to the same OAL you'd give the same load in a .357 case, you should get the same pressure you would in the longer brass -- and, as noted near the beginning of the thread, that longer OAL should prevent use in .38 Special revolvers with minimum length cylinders. If you have a .38 built on the same frame as a .357, however, the cylinder is likely to be long enough to accommodate a .357 round, and unless the .38 Special cylinder is as strong as the .357 cylinder would be in the same frame, you could get into trouble with these .357 level loads chambering in the long .38 cylinder.

[mr.jake]

While this is true, the other factor is powder space -- as long as you're loading to the same OAL you'd give the same load in a .357 case, you should get the same pressure you would in the longer brass -- and, as noted near the beginning of the thread, that longer OAL should prevent use in .38 Special revolvers with minimum length cylinders. If you have a .38 built on the same frame as a .357, however, the cylinder is likely to be long enough to accommodate a .357 round, and unless the .38 Special cylinder is as strong as the .357 cylinder would be in the same frame, you could get into trouble with these .357 level loads chambering in the long .38 cylinder.

nc man